Your thoughts: An aircraft for the mission...

astanley

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Display name:
Andrew Stanley
Mission: Two adults, bags for the weekend/week; potential to grow with one child at a young age. Two main trip types - weekend to see friends; about 150nm each way. Week-long, or long-weekend, trips averaging about 600nm each way. Figure an average cabin load of 450# to give me breathing room.

Year round transportation, but price stipuations rule out twin and KI.

As family grows, plane will have to.

Budget: No more than $90k. Prefer $50k.

Plane has to be IR with minimal updates needed (i.e. should have GPS and full ILS)

--

Spike C. took me down to ADS last night to show me the pretty planes in his club. They have some beautiful Bonanza's that really set my heart atwitter. That and the P210 down the line, well, I started thinking "plane" again.

I live in the Northeast; so icing is always a problem. (to quote Cap'n Ron "Sometime this month they'll file the Airmet Zulu that stays in the system until late April...") I'm not at the point where I can afford a KI airplane, or the mx that comes along with it, so I'll have to work around that.

The plane has to be reasonably comfortable enough, with a good panel. I've thought of the following planes:

+ Mooney M20C/E/J (probably C/E, J's get pricey quick)
+ C205, with a clean engine, and some panel updates
+ Piper Arrow 180/200

I've flown the 205 and, like the Good Doctor will say, you can fit your family in it and thensome, and it can be a good value. The Arrow is nice because it's slick and has some good cabin room, and has good resale. The Mooney is great because it is sips gas and goes quick - but 450# in the cabin may not fly.

I'm not Complex but I could be, the only issue comes up is slightly increase mx expense.

So... your thoughts. What plane, what have I missed? The Tiger comes to mind, as it is capable and quick and a low mx airframe.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Sounds like a Mooney E or F would suit you nicely. Not sure where you got the 450# but with full tanks (6 hrs) I can put 700# in the cabin. For you price range you should be able to find an updated plane with a few mods. You're right, good Js get pricy fast.
 
The airplanes you cite have decidedly more capability than you've asked for. In order to get more bang for your buck, I'd downscale the model and get a nicer example. For the mission you describe, I'd get an Archer.
 
What Ken said...

We do pretty much that same profile in our Cherokee 180. You just have to accept that in the winter months you'll have to drive if there's significant IFR, or even light IFR over the mountains; for the 150 mile trip at least that won't take that much longer. Plan on a fuel stop for the 600 mile trip. Plus, with the PA28 you get to keep a lot more money in your wallet to spend on aviation goodies.

Dan
 
+ Mooney M20C/E/J (probably C/E, J's get pricey quick)

C/E can haul your child until they are fairly big, or you can partner and get that J, works for me. An F may work, but you'd be towards the top of your range for a nice one.

Don't overlook the 182, our club has one, and it is a nice plane. Grass strip friendly, hauls a load, decent speed, a real nice jack of all trades airplane.
 
Do not discount the Beech Sundowner/Sierra series. Easily capable of the mission you describe and underpriced compared to similar C&P models.
 
Tiger? Sounds like it'd do that mission nicely. You even mentioned it. Arrow speed, no complex MX, nice fuel burn numbers.
If you still want to go faster, I'd definitely look at the Mooney. Should handle your cabin load, and do it very efficiently, too.
 
The airplanes you cite have decidedly more capability than you've asked for. In order to get more bang for your buck, I'd downscale the model and get a nicer example. For the mission you describe, I'd get an Archer.

There are a couple thinly veiled reasons behind some of those choices... one, I'd like a plane that could cover 500nm with me solo, at some decent speed. I can go 5-6hr without stopping generally. Two, I may be in a position through work to travel in my own airplane at some point. I'd like a plane that can get me there pretty quick. Thirdly, I love hot rods :)

This is good advice - merely letting you in on the slightly hidden agenda here.

Can you get a bike frame, wheels off, in most planes? Never tried to do it...

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Can you get a bike frame, wheels off, in most planes? Never tried to do it...-Andrew

We've gotten two full-size hybrids into our 180, just by removing the front wheels and unclamping the handlebars. Made for a fun weekend down at Ocean City MD.

Dan
 
We've gotten two full-size hybrids into our 180, just by removing the front wheels and unclamping the handlebars. Made for a fun weekend down at Ocean City MD.

Dan

Hmm.

Interesting. And they can be had pretty inexpensively. What's the mx cost like on yours Dan?

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Don't overlook the 182, our club has one, and it is a nice plane. Grass strip friendly, hauls a load, decent speed, a real nice jack of all trades airplane.

I'll throw a vote in for the 182. They come in lots of different price ranges depending on what you're looking for. The cabin size is also a little more roomy than the Archer/180. With all the speed mods on a straight-leg 182, you can get RG speeds of 145kts or so without the mx costs of RG.

The Archer/180 is also a good plane. Have several hours in both. Took me, my dad, a co-worker and all of our camping gear to OSH a few years ago. Nice handling and pretty good performance, but me being 6'7" and broad-shouldered, I like the extra room the 182 provides - especially on longer trips.
 
Can you get a bike frame, wheels off, in most planes? Never tried to do it...

Cheers,

-Andrew

205 you don't even take the wheels off. That's the plane I'd go for out of the choices you listed. It's funny how your load requirements grow with your ability to carry.
 
Mission: Two adults, bags for the weekend/week; potential to grow with one child at a young age. Two main trip types - weekend to see friends; about 150nm each way. Week-long, or long-weekend, trips averaging about 600nm each way. Figure an average cabin load of 450# to give me breathing room.

Year round transportation, but price stipuations rule out twin and KI.

As family grows, plane will have to.

Budget: No more than $90k. Prefer $50k.

Plane has to be IR with minimal updates needed (i.e. should have GPS and full ILS)

An Archer or Cherokee 180 will fit the bill quite nicely. You should be able to get a pretty good early Archer (76-77) for around $65,000. You may want to pay the extra $ to get a 1980 or later, as they added full fairings to the landing gear (instead of just wheel pants) and you can actually get some pretty decent speed out of them. I've flown a clean one that got 125 knots, whereas I haven't done much better than 115 in the early ones. Fuel capacity is 48 gallons or around 4 hours plus a 45-min reserve.

If you want to carry more stuff (camping gear, kids when they get older and bigger, etc.), be able to make the 600nm trips without a fuel stop, have more elbow room and more comfortable seating position for those 600nm trips, and get there a little faster, the 182 is an excellent traveling machine. You'll burn about 3 gph more and have a couple extra cylinders to maintain, but you'll get there faster and be able to carry a crapload of stuff. Our 1971 G430W-equipped 182 with a run-out engine (ha! It's working better than new at TBO+400!) is worth about $85,000.

It sounds like the Archer/Cherokee 180 would meet your needs quite nicely right now, but you might want the 182 later. So, you may just want to buy the 182 now, outfit it how you want it, and then keep it forever. :)
 
There are a couple thinly veiled reasons behind some of those choices... one, I'd like a plane that could cover 500nm with me solo, at some decent speed. I can go 5-6hr without stopping generally. Two, I may be in a position through work to travel in my own airplane at some point. I'd like a plane that can get me there pretty quick. Thirdly, I love hot rods :)

This is good advice - merely letting you in on the slightly hidden agenda here.

Can you get a bike frame, wheels off, in most planes? Never tried to do it...

Cheers,

-Andrew
Well, jeez, Andrew. Now you go changing everything!!

Stretch and get a J model Mooney. Without a doubt.
 
Can you get a bike frame, wheels off, in most planes? Never tried to do it...

I can get 2 bikes in the back of the Bo by removing the wheels and one back seat. I do have the air ambulance hinges on my door, so I can't speak for most standard doors. Certainly anything with the club seating arrangement like a 206/A36 or similar.

You've actually got a pretty easy mission profile overall. Most people want 1500lb useful loads and 200+ knot speeds. :)
 
The Tiger comes to mind, as it is capable and quick and a low mx airframe.
Yeah, it sure does come to mind. Total ownership cost over several years will be a lot lower than any of the other planes you mentioned, and the speed difference with a Mooney won't make any difference on the 150 nm trip. A 205 is a lot more engine to feed and maintain, and your mission statement says you don't need the extra payload/cabin volume. The only plane that will stay in your stated payload/size range but give you better speed on the long trip is the Mooney, but I think you'll get a lot nicer Tiger for your stated price range than you will a Mooney, and even in the Mooney, I don't think you can skip the fuel stop on the 600 nm trip unless you're going VFR with a tailwind. In addition, you'll pay about $1000 more a year for insurance in the retractable Mooney compared to the Tiger, as well as a couple of dollars per flight hour more for maintenance on the gear and prop.

And if you flop the back seats down, you can put a bike in the Tiger as long as you pull the front wheel.
 
i hate threads like this. I would love to recommend a single seat glider but it just doesnt fit your mission
 
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