Yikes! Flight into IMC - What would you have done?

[Threefingeredjack]

Mind boggling. To do that solo without the ability to call for a pop-up clearance is questionable. To take others into that situation is inexcusable. Not the way you want to get your name in the paper.

 

[BobThePilot]

Yes, harsh, but as you said, it was "mvfr". That should trigger every pilot to confirm the wx whether they are PIC or or just riding along. MVFR around a mountainous terrain is reason for a closer look and better understanding before departing.

Have you ever flown in Alaska? Pretty normal there.

 

[ChitDisturber]

. You knew there were 1500' ceilings. You knew no clearance was called for.

Why would you need a clearance for VFR weather??

If I would h
Ave waited for CAVU weather to fly it would have taken forever to get my PPL and I probably would still be time building for my CPL in the PNW

 

[ActiveAir]

Have you ever flown in Alaska? Pretty normal there.

Nope, but I'm guessing the airspace in Alaska is a little less crowded than metro SoCal. Even so, when (someday) I do fly in Alaska, I will always check the wx before every flight whether MVFR or better or worse. Learned that when I got my PP.

I make mistakes, but not knowing the wx before taking a flight is not one of them. I also check my fuel before I take off.

 

[dukeblue219]

Why would you need a clearance for VFR weather??

For most of us 1500' ceilings and low visibility is not "VFR weather." To take passengers up under those conditions (without even checking the weather first) and no IFR ticket to get out of trouble if you need it, is utterly reckless. If you KNOW it's a steady or lifting 1500' over flatlands then fine, go fly at 1000 AGL if you want, but that's not at all what happened here.

If I would have waited for CAVU weather to fly it would have taken forever to get my PPL and I probably would still be time building for my CPL in the PNW

Nobody said you have to wait for CAVU. There's a middle ground where this flight would have been perfectly safe (although the pilot seems to lack good ADM which could have manifested in some other type of disaster).

 

[jspilot]

All I want to say is I'm glad you are here to report the story rather than having to have someone report on you as the story.

Perfect example of when lying is a good thing!

 

[stratobee]

MVFR = VFR. There is no delineation.

This guy was wrong to do this and especially take people with him. Also sounds like he busted the minimums over built up areas. If this had been NM desert, then it would have been a complete other kettle of fish.

However, here in SoCal, there's a lack of bad weather training and experience. Many people go from zero to a PPL without even having seen many clouds. When I go fly with ceilings around 2000ft here in the basin, the airspace is empty of VFR traffic. Literally. Nobody flies in SoCal in marginal weather. If we did that where I first learned to fly (wx like Alaska), we wouldn't be flying at all for 10 months out of the year. It's an essential skill to have marginal wx experience and it should be practiced. They way you practice it is to go out and fly it. But preferably on your own. You'd be surprised just how bad 1 mile visibility actually is - not very fun to fly in. Thankfully, it's rarely ever that bad here.

 

[Alexb2000]

Why would you need a clearance for VFR weather??

If I would h
Ave waited for CAVU weather to fly it would have taken forever to get my PPL and I probably would still be time building for my CPL in the PNW

You're flying in a bowl surrounded by terrain. You don't know what the weather is going to do and you don't have a lot of room to maneuver vertically if the vis goes down. File up, then you can open your IFR with a quick radio call, IF you still want to fly VFR initially. If you don't what happens if you call for a pop-up and they can't do it right then? Or how about just a clearance to on-top? Lots of options that are smarter than what happened.

Not directed at you, but I am amazed by some pilots reluctance to file. They somehow feel it will restrict them. IMO they just don't know how to use the system.

 

[ChitDisturber]

Much of my flying building time towards my CPL and IFR was on floats and in Champs and Stinsons in the PNW.

Going up in 1500-3000' was semi common pre-IFR, we checked the wx and forecast and were sure to have a few outs, as well as being familiar with the area (also have a chart handy).

Now that I'm a ATP I play in a lot lower, utilizing IFR when needed and going back to the freedom of VFR when confident in sustained VMC.

 

[RV10flyer]

MVFR = VFR. There is no delineation.

This guy was wrong to do this and especially take people with him. Also sounds like he busted the minimums over built up areas. If this had been NM desert, then it would have been a complete other kettle of fish.

However, here in SoCal, there's a lack of bad weather training and experience. Many people go from zero to a PPL without even having seen many clouds. When I go fly with ceilings around 2000ft here in the basin, the airspace is empty of VFR traffic. Literally. Nobody flies in SoCal in marginal weather.If we did that where I first learned to fly (wx like Alaska), we wouldn't be flying at all for 10 months out of the year. It's an essential skill to have marginal wx experience and it should be practiced. They way you practice it is to go out and fly it. But preferably on your own. You'd be surprised just how bad 1 mile visibility actually is - not very fun to fly in. Thankfully, it's rarely ever that bad here.

Same here in the east in fairly flat land. Many CFI's/schools don't allow flying in mvfr or > 10 kts. Then we have to learn on our own. I really enjoy studying wx, some do not. A good example of poor ADM and why we have so many wx related accidents.

 

[ChitDisturber]

Same here in the east in fairly flat land. Many CFI's/schools don't allow flying in mvfr or > 10 kts.

That's what hiring the dumbest and cheapest CFIs will get ya.

I tell all my guys that for dual instruction if it's legal we are good to go. For solo ops it depends on the student, mission and forecast.


It's a rare day we don't have over 10kts of wind at our school, think all the guys I've soloed were in over 10kts

 

[spiderweb]

Be very careful about with whom you fly, Bob.

And get an instrument rating. You deserve it. In Cal, this theme will recur over and over....

Exactly what I was thinking. A benign, thin layer is merely something of which to take note, if you are IR and have filed.

 

[Everskyward]

Exactly what I was thinking. A benign, thin layer is merely something of which to take note, if you are IR and have filed.

Welcome back Ben!

 

[spiderweb]

Welcome back Ben!

Thanks!

 

[Henning]

What were y'all flying in that you couldn't roll to a stop in 4000'? My 310 would stop before that and I touch down around 70kts.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

PA32. (Remember I was in the back seat...don't shoot the messenger). Fast high approach, followed by the brake fiasco! Not the best flying day...but never again. Today's Saratoga ride made for one of those flying days that we dream of!

 

[VWGhiaBob]

Seems like some posters didn't read the original post. To re-iterate...

I was not flying the plane...I was in the back. We did not take off knowing about MVFR. I found out when the PIC asked me to check on take-off. My lessons learned:

1. Not all pilots follow standard operating procedures.
2. Not all pilots share our passion for safety.
3. I'm not going up with someone again until I know them well, including their piloting skills.
4. I will independently check the weather when flying with someone.
5. No going up with pilots who don't do thorough pre-flights EVERY time.

All these get added to my "minimums".

Oh... and no MVFR for this VFR pilot. MVFR can turn to IFR in minutes.

 

[Henning]

Have you ever flown in Alaska? Pretty normal there.

Lol, yeah, I was there last summer, no shortage of planes plastered against mountains either. I could grab the binoculars and count 4 from our dock in Whittier.

 

[GAZOO]

vwghiabob.....what area do you fly out of (airport)? I am out of KCCB. Just wondering

 

[Jeff K]

For a non-IR rated pilot to enter the clouds not knowing the tops is Russian roulette with 5 rounds in a 6-shooter, they are all lucky they didn't break out of the cloud bottoms in a graveyard spiral.

Perhaps you missed this: "Trouble is, we're in a hilly area, and visibility starts to decline to the point we can only see the ground to the right side, and only because it's a hill (we're below the crest of the hillside). We can see people in their cars. "

Reminded me alot of this video: http://youtu.be/r2MVDY8o7Bs?t=1m24s

Sometimes the one bullet missing is your only hope and you have to take it. I believe such was the case here.

Nonsense.

I'd rather these bozos snag a cell tower than hit another IFR aircraft legally on a clearance in IMC.

The OP's question is "What would you have done". That you would have willingly committed suicide via cell tower is certainly noble, but if I found myself in that situation I would have made an attempt to live. I would have filed to stay out of that situation in the first place, yet I thought the hypothetical question deserved an honest answer. Continued flight down a valley in IMC would be something I'd get out of as quickly as possible. The fact the OP is alive and asking us is demonstration of that.

He may consider turning his buddy into the FAA. A 709 ride is warranted here.

 

[Immelman]

OP: You did good. You recognized a hazardous situation and SPOKE UP - thats the key - in a way that got the PIC to take action. Whatever you did to get that accomplished, you did good.

With that said... its easy to make blanket statements here like never fly VFR in 1500' ceilings. There are many times when that isn't wise. There are many times when its safe and legal. Which ever it is comes with experience. Either way, the situation you describe is no bueno and I'm glad you got yourself out of it.

 

[Blatham489]

Perhaps you missed this: "Trouble is, we're in a hilly area, and visibility starts to decline to the point we can only see the ground to the right side, and only because it's a hill (we're below the crest of the hillside). We can see people in their cars. "


He may consider turning his buddy into the FAA. A 709 ride is warranted here.

Perhaps YOU missed the part where I said " nor is there anything said about not being able to make the u-turn (but the hillside he mentions may have been why that was not attempted).

 

[DesertNomad]

You memorize all the airports along the route you choose?

I do. Of course in Nevada there aren't too many to remember.

 

[Captain]

For what it's worth I'd have punched through that layer VFR too. I'd like to add that I'd not let myself get into that situation.

But...if I'm stuck between clouds and earth and have to choose which to hit ill pick clouds every time. Ill take restricted airspace over earth too. Remember, he said it was hilly terrain.

Here's a similar situation...you're flying along and get a TCAS Resolution Advisory telling you to descend. So you go down to avoid the traffic and while descending you get a GPWS warning. "Whoop whoop, pull up! Terrain!" What do you do? Abandon the RA and switch to the GPWS and climb, right? You 'might' hit the plane but you're 'going' to hit the earth. Big Sky Theory still has a place.

Like I said, I'd do my best to stay out of the OPs position, but if I was there I'd go up too.

 

[Captain]

Crap, missed two pages of posts. Sorry.

 

[Jeff K]

Perhaps YOU missed the part where I said " nor is there anything said about not being able to make the u-turn (but the hillside he mentions may have been why that was not attempted).

No, I didn't miss that part as it was this part I was replying to:

For a non-IR rated pilot to enter the clouds not knowing the tops is Russian roulette with 5 rounds in a 6-shooter, they are all lucky they didn't break out of the cloud bottoms in a graveyard spiral.

...

.if I'm stuck between clouds and earth and have to choose which to hit ill pick clouds every time. Ill take restricted airspace over earth too.

Yeap, hoping for the one bullet missing is better then the full magazine.

 

[dell30rb]

I almost flew VFR into IMC yesterday, except I was able to safely and legally extract myself from the situation.

Coming back from near Charleston, SC to Raleigh, NC. The weather was MVFR in the Charleston area lifting to VFR near the NC border. Normally I would just file in this situation, but I was flying with a pilot friend who suggested we just go below the bases. I agreed since the ceilings were 2500-3000 feet, visibility at area airports was good and terrain + towers were not an issue on our route.

I flew along for about 15 minutes, changing altitude between 2000-2500agl to stay in the clear. Visibility was better than six miles and everything was going okay. I picked up flight following.

A few minutes later, we are down to 1500 feet and ahead it looks like it is getting hazier, visibility is definitely lower and in front of me, I can't tell if what I am looking at is an area of restricted visibility, or the base of a cloud. At this point, I threw in the towel. It was either 180 or climb. I turned the autopilot on, set it in heading mode (Anticipating a 180) and asked the controller for an IFR clearance to my destination. The controller was very quick with the clearance, and I got a climb to 5000 feet. As it turns out, I was looking at the base of a cloud and no more than a minute after I got my clearance, I was completely in IMC with water streaming along the windscreen.

 

[Brad Z]

The OP's question is "What would you have done". That you would have willingly committed suicide via cell tower is certainly noble, but if I found myself in that situation I would have made an attempt to live. I would have filed to stay out of that situation in the first place, yet I thought the hypothetical question deserved an honest answer. Continued flight down a valley in IMC would be something I'd get out of as quickly as possible. The fact the OP is alive and asking us is demonstration of that.

He may consider turning his buddy into the FAA. A 709 ride is warranted here.

Point taken. Hopefully if your were in that situation, you'd encourage the pilot to follow the "Climb, confess, comply" process of notifying ATC that you inadvertently strayed into IMC as well.

 

[danhagan]

Point taken. Hopefully if your were in that situation, you'd encourage the pilot to follow the "Climb, confess, comply" process of notifying ATC that you inadvertently strayed into IMC as well.

Sounds like the PIC (not OP) would probably never do the 3 C's.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

This pilot was born too late. He is beyond doubt kamikaze pilot material. Read the last years accident reports about pilots in Alaska. One com. Pilot took off in fog,about 4 months ago, never even made it to the end of the runway, crashed, burned killed four people, on and on. I would never have gotten in the airplane! Lucky he's alive.

 

[Jeff K]

Point taken. Hopefully if your were in that situation, you'd encourage the pilot to follow the "Climb, confess, comply" process of notifying ATC that you inadvertently strayed into IMC as well.

Honest answer again? I'm not sure. If I'd have popped out immediately above the layer in VFR as the OP's "buddy" did, I might hesitate in turning myself in since I was no longer an immediate hazard to myself or others. I most definitely would however let ATC know if I had to descend through the layer or if I'd continued to climb in IMC (after I stabilized the aircraft). I'd also most certainly go on flight following at the point, so ATC would have me in the system in case I did get in trouble again. I'd also never do it again, but that's me, not the OP's buddy.

Before this gets lost, I'd really stress to the OP they should make a phone call to the local FSDO. His "buddy" has done this before and it wasn't a one time occurrence. In all likely hood, (and Ron Levy you can comment on this) the FAA might give him a 709 ride. It's not really an administrative action (unless you refuse) just more a check ride.. so it really can be a learning experience. More to the point, it will put your buddy on notice this stuff matters. Since you'll never fly with him again, no loss to you and it's likely he'll never know it was you (the 709 can be given only with the most vague hint or suspicion).

You'll never forgive yourself if he does it again and the outcome isn't as lucky the next time. He may also take someone else with him.

 

[comanchepilot]

I was in IMC near EMT being vectored to the VOR-A at POC in the soup that went all the way from Hawaii to PSP, and get a VFR traffic call, traffic, 12 o'clock, 4 miles, same altitude converging. Wtf? Solid IMC. The controller got a little peaked. Heard the alarm going off when he transmitted, finally he said "immediate left turn, give me a 180 NOW."

Maybe the same guy toodling along in IMC not talking to anyone . . . Why not, big sky, right.

Only time I've ever been really scared in IMC. Supervisor asked me to call after landing.

I never saw him. Solid IMC. Came within 100' vertically and inside 500' according to the Supe. Yikes.

 

[Pilawt]

I never saw him. Solid IMC. Came within 100' vertically and inside 500' according to the Supe. Yikes.

Nice that the squirrel was squawking Mode C ...

 

[Jeff K]

Only time I've ever been really scared in IMC. Supervisor asked me to call after landing.

I never saw him. Solid IMC. Came within 100' vertically and inside 500' according to the Supe. Yikes.

Did they catch the guy? If he was squawking mode C they should have been able to track him to his destination, and perhaps a call to the airport manager, would have turned up the N number of the plane that just landed.

 

[somorris]

Glad you are still alive, Bob. Be careful out there.