Yikes 2

[Shepherd]

I was having a marvelous day. I went "grass hopping" at 5 airports. While turning base to final at GBR I had a "runway incident" involving a student pilot. Not as bad as it could have been, but a reminder to keep you eyes open and your head on a swivel at all times. If I was in the Cherokee, I might not have seen him under the wing, I would have been coming down a lot faster, and there could have been a different outcome.

 

[Radar Contact]

Can’t get the link to open.

 

[DaleB]

One thing I learned in a similar situation (guy pulled out onto the runway as I was on SHORT final) is to immediately offset to one side or the other. In you case I doubt your Cub is going to catch the guy taking off, but in my case... I initiated a go-around, but didn't think to offset and flew right over the top of him. The other guy didn't know I was there until I passed directly over his canopy. If he'd gotten off the ground quicker it might have been a bad outcome.

Oh, and the link has an extra "%20" (space) in front of it. Remove that and it works.

 

[Radar Contact]

Works now. Think he just thought he could squeeze out 3000ft and airborne ahead of you? Know it’s a cub and not needed but do you have a radio?

 

[PaulS]

Good call to go around, but he was beyond the end of the runway before you got to the threshold. I fly out of a busy Delta so maybe I'm more used to that going on.

Not criticizing you and it always looks different on camera than in real life. If you feel you should go, go, you know that. I hope you took it easy on the student if you saw him after.

 

[RyanB]

That’s par for the course at a non-towered airport. Judging from the video, you probably would’ve been okay to continue, since it appears he was airborne by the time you reached the runway, but it’s always best to err on the side of caution. My guess is, he probably misinterpreted your position from him and thought he could sneak out beforehand. Nice job, Shep!

 

[luvflyin]

I was having a marvelous day. I went "grass hopping" at 5 airports. While turning base to final at GBR I had a "runway incident" involving a student pilot. Not as bad as it could have been, but a reminder to keep you eyes open and your head on a swivel at all times. If I was in the Cherokee, I might not have seen him under the wing, I would have been coming down a lot faster, and there could have been a different outcome.

I’m not seeing much difference a Cherokee would make. He did it during your base to final turn. But then I haven’t flown a Cherokee in many moons. Yeah, I said ‘many moons’ instead of a long time because it’s a Piper

 

[DaleB]

That’s par for the course at a non-towered airport. Judging from the video, you probably would’ve been okay to continue, since it appears he was airborne by the time you reached the runway, but it’s always best to err on the side of caution. My guess is, he probably misinterpreted your position from him and thought he could sneak out beforehand. Nice job, Shep!

I thought that too... he had plenty of time to land and the other guy would have been airborne and long gone.

Unless.

Unless the other guy aborts his takeoff run, and Shep catches a gust or something and lands a little long, or whatever. So many variables that could make things go from "OK" to "not OK" in a hurry, and a go-around is almost never the wrong answer.

 

[bflynn]

I can't see that a Cherokee would have been a problem either. I've never not had a full view of the runway when on final.

Given that he was rolling when you stabilized on final, he was going to be gone or aborted by the time you were over the threshold. It's never wrong to go around and more flying time is always good, but I don't see much danger here.

 

[RyanB]

I thought that too... he had plenty of time to land and the other guy would have been airborne and long gone.

Unless.

Unless the other guy aborts his takeoff run, and Shep catches a gust or something and lands a little long, or whatever. So many variables that could make things go from "OK" to "not OK" in a hurry, and a go-around is almost never the wrong answer.

Agreed.

 

[denverpilot]

Good eye.

Hey what’s that sideways flying stuff near the end? Are airplanes allowed to do that? Nose seemed all crooked and descent rate was higher.

I can’t find that thing in any of the other flight Training YouTube channels.

Looks super dangerous. Maybe one of those non-stabilized approaches I hear about.

LOL. Kidding of course.

 

[PaulS]

Good eye.

Hey what’s that sideways flying stuff near the end? Are airplanes allowed to do that? Nose seemed all crooked and descent rate was higher.

I can’t find that thing in any of the other flight Training YouTube channels.

Looks super dangerous. Maybe one of those non-stabilized approaches I hear about.

LOL. Kidding of course.

I always fly crooked, can't figure out what those pedals on the floor do in the air.

 

[Shepherd]

The guy had already made 3 mistakes. I was waiting for the 4th mistake in the chain.
Anyway, People were yelling at him as he pulled out onto the runway. I was concerned that he would abort the takeoff somewhere on the runway. It's only 2,500ft with a large displacement on RWY 11, (where I was landing). If I decided to add a 5th mistake and landed behind him I would slam into him from behind. Brakes are optional on a Cub. The option wasn't available yesterday. If I landed past him I ran the risk of running into spectators and traffic on the road at the end of the runway.
Additionally, if you watch the video, it take him an inordinately long time to get off and climb out. It turns out he was in such a hurry to get out in front of me he took off without flaps. He almost flew it into the trees down-range.

 

[Shepherd]

. If you feel you should go, go, you know that. I hope you took it easy on the student if you saw him after.

In a perfect world, I would have just slipped to the left and landed on the grass. But the guys wife, in another Cherokee, was parked right at the start of the grass. The ground was a little wet, and I didn't want to risk shortening my useful roll-out with no brakes.
After I parked, and got everything squared away, I was talking to the wife. I originally thought she was in the plane that pulled out. She explained her husband was using the wrong "N" number all afternoon, and she was soooo embarrassed by everything that happened, and she was going to give him a dressing down.
Mad, no. It was just another day at the office.

 

[Dana]

I probably would've continued my approach a bit farther while staying ready to go around if necessary, it's not a big deal in a Cub where the difference between landing and climb configuration is a couple of inches of throttle movement (unlike a larger/faster aircraft where you have to retract the gear, slowly retract the flaps, and wait to accelerate)... but an early go-around is never a wrong choice, either.

Now, the student probably should have waited... though in the same situation an experienced pilot who knows he can move onto the runway and take off without delay might be perfectly safe. Either would be normal and expected at my home drome.

 

[luvflyin]

The guy had already made 3 mistakes. I was waiting for the 4th mistake in the chain.
Anyway, People were yelling at him as he pulled out onto the runway. I was concerned that he would abort the takeoff somewhere on the runway. It's only 2,500ft with a large displacement on RWY 11, (where I was landing). If I decided to add a 5th mistake and landed behind him I would slam into him from behind. Brakes are optional on a Cub. The option wasn't available yesterday. If I landed past him I ran the risk of running into spectators and traffic on the road at the end of the runway.
Additionally, if you watch the video, it take him an inordinately long time to get off and climb out. It turns out he was in such a hurry to get out in front of me he took off without flaps. He almost flew it into the trees down-range.

I thinks ya made the right decision based on all that.

 

[PaulS]

The guy had already made 3 mistakes. I was waiting for the 4th mistake in the chain.
Anyway, People were yelling at him as he pulled out onto the runway. I was concerned that he would abort the takeoff somewhere on the runway. It's only 2,500ft with a large displacement on RWY 11, (where I was landing). If I decided to add a 5th mistake and landed behind him I would slam into him from behind. Brakes are optional on a Cub. The option wasn't available yesterday. If I landed past him I ran the risk of running into spectators and traffic on the road at the end of the runway.
Additionally, if you watch the video, it take him an inordinately long time to get off and climb out. It turns out he was in such a hurry to get out in front of me he took off without flaps. He almost flew it into the trees down-range.

Wow. Sometimes a pilot should just stay on the ground, sounds like things were snowballing for him. With that info I would have gone too. People yelling at him, not sure that is a good idea for a student with something like this.

 

[denverpilot]

Wow. Sometimes a pilot should just stay on the ground, sounds like things were snowballing for him. With that info I would have gone too. People yelling at him, not sure that is a good idea for a student with something like this.

I had a guy in another airplane decide he just HAD to give commentary about my flight path ... on a Clearance Delivery frequency once. Like right after my read back.

In his defense he was worried there was some weather that direction and probably thought I didn’t know that and was gonna go die or something...

But even the Clearance Delivery controller was stunned into dead silence after his outburst. Hahaha.

I replied, “Understood and aware, we have a plan.”

The stuff you hear on radios sometimes...

I can’t say I didn’t appreciate him being concerned but I can’t say he handled it the best way either, not that he had any other option than to just stay quiet.

Maybe just a “You know there’s bad weather that direction right?”

Was pretty surreal.

 

[Warmi]

Go around is almost always a safe choice.

I had a similar incident last year and just went around ...

 

[Shepherd]

Yours was even closer. Good job.
Like the song says: "You Can Always Go Around"

 

[Shepherd]

I had a guy in another airplane decide he just HAD to give commentary about my flight path ... on a Clearance Delivery frequency once. Like right after my read back.

Was pretty surreal.

It is mind boggling what you hear on the comms some days.

 

[somorris]

Thanks for posting the video, Shep. It helps to keep us all alert when we see it on the big screen.

I still feel bad when I think about an incident several years ago. I was ready to go at the end of the runway, and there was an aircraft (looked like a C-172) on downwind about two thirds of the runway length, so I started my takeoff roll. I still don't know how quickly he turned base, but he announced on CTAF "aircraft on the runway, going around." I thought there was plenty of room, but he didn't, and it still bothers me that I made him think a go around was necessary.

 

[steingar]

This has happened enough times that it really doesn't register that much. Folks make mistakes, folks get in a hurry. Some of us have radios, all of us have eyes. Only problem I see here is too damn many cameras.

 

[Shepherd]

Thanks for posting the video, Shep. It helps to keep us all alert when we see it on the big screen.

I still feel bad when I think about an incident several years ago. I was ready to go at the end of the runway, and there was an aircraft (looked like a C-172) on downwind about two thirds of the runway length, so I started my takeoff roll. I still don't know how quickly he turned base, but he announced on CTAF "aircraft on the runway, going around." I thought there was plenty of room, but he didn't, and it still bothers me that I made him think a go around was necessary.

In the "Connectedness of All Things" screw ups can avalanche. We all screw up. You just want to avoid being the the screw up at the bottom of the hill.

 

[PaulS]

In the "Connectedness of All Things" screw ups can avalanche. We all screw up. You just want to avoid being the the screw up at the bottom of the hill.

Great comment, that's why we should all try to be on our toes. So in situations like this if I screw up, you are on top of it and save both our bacons.

 

[EdFred]

Honestly, I would have landed in both those vids from what I saw.

 

[PaulS]

Honestly, I would have landed in both those vids from what I saw.

I don't know about the second one, that guy was pretty clueless, I'd be worried about landing and having him accelerate right into my tail.

 

[EdFred]

I don't know about the second one, that guy was pretty clueless, I'd be worried about landing and having him accelerate right into my tail.

There is that, but he may have also partially redecorated interior just as he was pulling out onto the runway, and then used his brain. Assuming they weren't lost in part of the redecorating process.

 

[DaleB]

Honestly, I would have landed in both those vids from what I saw.

I probably would have in the first case... assuming I was slow enough on final to actually see him get clear of the runway. I wouldn't disagree with the call to go around, though. With a very few specific exceptions, you don't HAVE to land.

In the second case, I've had the exact same thing happen. Go around. Had I not done so we'd have most certainly had a collision, the only question was whether it would have been on the ground or in the air. When the guy's pulling onto the runway, he's focused that way... he's not going to see you until he's at full throttle, and then there's going to be a second or two of "WTF" time before he reacts.

 

[killerfish72]

I had exactly this happen to me at our untowered airport a few days ago. When the pilot (also in a Cherokee) announced he was taking the runway, I was just turning base to final. I had been calling my pattern all along on the radio too. Either way, I informed him (just in case he missed it/me) that I was turning base to final and he acknowledged that he knew and he just wanted to get out in front of me... Seriously, what's the hurry?! Mind you I was flying a pretty darn tight pattern and was traveling about 75knots at that turn. He maybe would have had to wait another 60-90secs until I was clear of runway.

 

[brcase]

In a perfect world, I would have just slipped to the left and landed on the grass. But the guys wife, in another Cherokee, was parked right at the start of the grass. The ground was a little wet, and I didn't want to risk shortening my useful roll-out with no brakes.
After I parked, and got everything squared away, I was talking to the wife. I originally thought she was in the plane that pulled out. She explained her husband was using the wrong "N" number all afternoon, and she was soooo embarrassed by everything that happened, and she was going to give him a dressing down.
Mad, no. It was just another day at the office.

Correct, if you are getting Mad in a Cub you are doing it wrong

Brian

 

[danhagan]

I had a guy in another airplane decide he just HAD to give commentary about my flight path ... on a Clearance Delivery frequency once. Like right after my read back.

In his defense he was worried there was some weather that direction and probably thought I didn’t know that and was gonna go die or something...

We had a fly-in back around 2007 or 2008. A SINGLE shaft of rain developed over the departure end and winds kicked up to 40 knots at the same time ... AC in the run-up departed anyway straight into it (could've side stepped, it was literally only a 150-200 yard shaft) ... they didn't survive. At my field you might get that same warning after that event ...

 

[denverpilot]

We had a fly-in back around 2007 or 2008. A SINGLE shaft of rain developed over the departure end and winds kicked up to 40 knots at the same time ... AC in the run-up departed anyway straight into it (could've side stepped, it was literally only a 150-200 yard shaft) ... they didn't survive. At my field you might get that same warning after that event ...

Yeah something sure had him spooked. Like I said, it was fine. A warning that you’re about to go kill yourself is always appreciated... I just... wasn’t. LOL.

 

[PaulS]

Yeah something sure had him spooked. Like I said, it was fine. A warning that you’re about to go kill yourself is always appreciated... I just... wasn’t. LOL.

I was up in Maine, on what I guess was a windy day. The main runway was at least a mile long and had a direct crosswind, blowing at about 15 to 18 knots. The cross runway had pretty much no crosswind but was only 2,800 feet long. I rent the Cirrus I fly and they want at least 3,000 feet for landing or take off and you have to be checked out for that, otherwise it's 4,000 feet. The Cirrus in that wind would probably be off the runway in 800 feet, but rules are rules, so I did my runup at the long runway with the crosswind.

Meanwhile, a guy in a Baron sees me on the long runway, announces his taxi and starts over to the long runway. Then he saw the windsock and announced switching to the other runway, then he announced it again, then one more time, then someone else piped up and said "Ah yup, that looks like the right runway to use." The baron guy says "Yup, that's why I'm gonna use it."

I appreciated their concern and I almost keyed up to explain my dilemma, but I was ready to go and didn't want a 5 minute conversation, so I announced my departure and went, leaving them there scratching their heads thinking: "another stupid Cirrus pilot".