Yet another Which Plane? Thread. With a twist

[wabower]

Major O/H cycle is 8k hours. In 20+ years of almost daily involvement, I've only seen two sets of P&W overhauls. Both were optional rather than mandatory because the owners wanted to do them, neither provided squat in terms of reliability or performance.

Not necessarily, depends how much you fly, works both ways as well. If you don't fly much and never intend to end life your engines you can actually get really cheap calculations due to the relatively low cost of keeping them in tune until you're done. A recip cabin twin only makes sense as a family plane or such. When business class dispatch reliability is required, so is a turbine. It is possible to maintain turbine like dispatch reliability but the cost will run similar to operating a turbine, you just spend less money more often with the recip. The real reason that turbines are tricky is that $250,000+ engine repair hit. As a private plane, you eat that. As a business asset you deduct it at least.

 

[jsstevens]

I am enjoying and learning from the discussion, which is what I hoped when I started the thread. Thanks to the participants and please continue...

We (my boss & I) are still talking...

John

 

[Henning]

Major O/H cycle is 8k hours. In 20+ years of almost daily involvement, I've only seen two sets of P&W overhauls. Both were optional rather than mandatory because the owners wanted to do them, neither provided squat in terms of reliability or performance.

Exactly, to get that kind of reliability out of a recip you have to have a pro pilot A&P IA who works a full time week keeping the plane ready to go, plus an appropriate facility.

 

[Everskyward]

Here is a site which provides ballpark variable costs for different aircraft. First read the page which tells you how they determined the variable cost then click on "view aircraft variable cost page" and select the type of aircraft.

https://www.conklindd.com/Page.aspx?cid=1115

 

[Ted]

I'll disagree that a piston twin only makes sense as a family plane. For business, it depends on the level of activity and expected downtime. But with a 414 or 421, do expect more MX on the downtime. So long as the shop understands this, shouldn't be an issue. For the OP's stated use of 3-4 trips per month, that should work out.

In 2000 hours of flying piston planes, much of it being on weekly trips, I've only had to cancel for MX reasons I believe two times. Not a bad ratio.

That said, there's also a good argument for a turbine given the distances.

 

[kmead]

You know what my choice would be. A nice well maintained PA46-310P should be your pick. I really like our old crusty 1985. Got up to 250 Kts in cruise over the ground last week. 16 GPH LOP.

And my engine didn't quit!

 

[taters]

I used to fly doctors around and these are the numbers we came up with last year when looking to upgrade. (we analyzed about 15 planes this way)
Make: EADS Socata Model: TBM 700C2
Seats 5+1 pilot
Socata
$990,000 Low
$3,334,000 High
1991 Oldest
2011 Newest
Fuel (GPH):
51.00
Fuel Costs/Gallon:
4.40
Fuel Costs/Hour:
224.40
Oil Costs per Hour:
0.50
Maintenance Cost/Hour:
112.28
Hourly Engine Reserve:
55.25
Prop T/R Reserve:
4.06
Total Variable Costs/Hour:
396.49
Average Speed (MPH):
246.78
Cost/SM:
1.60
Annual Insurance:
14,988.49
Annual Hangar/Tiedown:
7,273.16
Training:
5,020.97
Total Fixed Costs:
27,282.62

 

[taters]

Id look at a "turn key" refurbished Navajo Panther
for less than 300K you could get a very nice and capable plane that is basically new.

With 3-4 folks, given the range and wx you will encounter you want a twin or a turbine single....





Cessna Conquest also worth a look ...

 

[Ted]

You know what my choice would be. A nice well maintained PA46-310P should be your pick. I really like our old crusty 1985. Got up to 250 Kts in cruise over the ground last week. 16 GPH LOP.

And my engine didn't quit!

I've gotten 250 KTS in cruise over the ground in the Aztec. I've also gotten 135 KTS in cruise over the ground in the Cheyenne.

And while your engine didn't quit, 10% of the piston PA46 fleet's engines have quit at some time or another. No thanks.

 

[wabower]

Conklin has a web-based product that allows the user to adjust most of the variable expenses based on local costs and conditions. Conklin's published numbers have always been heavily biased to the northeast corridor, which is understandable since so many planes are based there and the principals of Conklin lived in Boston.

OTOH, adjustments are often necessary since hangar rental for a turboprop in the NY area might be shown in their material as $36k/yr when a Dallas-based owner could obtain similar space for $9.6k/yr.

Here is a site which provides ballpark variable costs for different aircraft. First read the page which tells you how they determined the variable cost then click on "view aircraft variable cost page" and select the type of aircraft.

https://www.conklindd.com/Page.aspx?cid=1115

 

[N747JB]

Major O/H cycle is 8k hours. In 20+ years of almost daily involvement, I've only seen two sets of P&W overhauls. Both were optional rather than mandatory because the owners wanted to do them, neither provided squat in terms of reliability or performance.

I had both engines on the Citation overhauled, and of course saw ZERO difference in their operation! Not one degree cooler, not one knot faster, nothing, the only thing that was different was my bank balance! Actually, I think they used more oil after the overhauls.

 

[wabower]

Yahbut the jet overhauls are mandatory at published TBO intervals with no option for extended life ops. Check the sheets for prices of Citation II's with 3k+ engine times, almost all of which are 2nd and 3rd-run overhauls. They're not much more than you paid for Charlene.

Even nice ones are selling for a third of pre-2007 prices. The clients here are looking at one with less than 700 hours SMOH, decent paint, fresh interior and Garmin upgrade panel for less than $700k.

I had both engines on the Citation overhauled, and of course saw ZERO difference in their operation! Not one degree cooler, not one knot faster, nothing, the only thing that was different was my bank balance! Actually, I think they used more oil after the overhauls.

 

[taters]

Since we have all these experts on this thread I have to grab the opportunity to ask if someone let us know what is a typical (wet) hourly operating cost for a KA C90? I had been told $950/hr but looking at the numbers for a 414 mentioned above at $750/hr it must be higher than that?

Depends on what you amortize into the hourly rate...I divide them into variable and fixed and budget them separately.
C-90
Fuel (GPH): 75.00
Fuel Costs/Gallon 4.30
Fuel Costs/Hour: 322
Oil Costs per Hour: 1.01
Maintenance Cost/Hour: 131.15
Hourly Engine Reserve: 85.00
Prop T/R Reserve: 9.61
Total Variable Costs/Hour: 550.00

Average Speed (MPH): 241.52
Cost/SM: 2.10
Annual Insurance: 13,173.34
Annual Hangar/Tiedown: 9,016.45
Training: 9,050.99
Total Fixed Costs: 31,191.51
Hours/Year: 268.44

 

[Henning]

The thing against turbines is if you don't need or can't have altitude, they blow fuel hard. The Diesel 6 cyl is not far away now I gather since we are starting to hear OEM rumblings about it. With that we revitalize an entire generation of cabin twin airframes with a 350hp Diesel engine that will allow a Chieftain to get 13 nmpg with a load.

 

[Ted]

The thing against turbines is if you don't need or can't have altitude, they blow fuel hard. The Diesel 6 cyl is not far away now I gather since we are starting to hear OEM rumblings about it. With that we revitalize an entire generation of cabin twin airframes with a 350hp Diesel engine that will allow a Chieftain to get 13 nmpg with a load.

I think you're being a bit optimistic on that...

Currently a Navajo gets about 5.5 mpg statute ROP, maybe 6.5-7 LOP. You're not going to double that number. You'll probably get 9ish. Maybe 10ish.

 

[N747JB]

Yahbut the jet overhauls are mandatory at published TBO intervals with no option for extended life ops. Check the sheets for prices of Citation II's with 3k+ engine times, almost all of which are 2nd and 3rd-run overhauls. They're not much more than you paid for Charlene.

Even nice ones are selling for a third of pre-2007 prices. The clients here are looking at one with less than 700 hours SMOH, decent paint, fresh interior and Garmin upgrade panel for less than $700k.

I know the prices are terrible for sellers and great for buyers. Mine was an 89 models with 4000TT 500 on the engines, fresh paint and interior, 530W, Collins digital, usual stuff and I got just under 2.5 in 2007 What's it worth today? $1-1.2 maybe?? I miss flying her, but when I open my AMEX bill I feel better.
Looking at some of the asking prices on Citations, I wonder if a 500 is worth anything? Late model 501's with good engine times are under $700K ask, probably can be bought for a LOT less. Nice looking 550's around $1,000,000 or less asking prices. It's a lot of airplane for not much money, but it takes a lot of money to keep a cheap airplane flying.

 

[Mafoo]

Have you looked at the cost of chartering a plane? I would think it would not be that much more, and would free you up to either not go if people other then you need to make the trip, or free you up to work while on the trip.

It would also mean if the office closed, or you find out you don't need to go as often as you thought, that your not stuck with a plane.

 

[bbchien]

OMG. the voice of experience.....

 

[Mafoo]

OMG. the voice of experience.....

Wow... my first post back in over a week (mainly because of you), and the first thing I get is you.

Get off my back man.

 

[wabower]

Buyers are scarce, primarily due to fuel burn and the necessity for the Phase V inspections on 36-month intervals. A real nice 501 SP was recently parted out by a knowledgeable airplane industry company. 500's are worth the remaining time on the engines. 550's are half-mil give or take. 560's with high-time engines sell for $6-800k. Even at these "give-away" prices they linger on the market for many months.

Your sale in 2007 was at the very tippy-tippy-top of the market, although there was no way to know that at the time. Maybe just luck of the Irish, but in any event you done good.

I know the prices are terrible for sellers and great for buyers. Mine was an 89 models with 4000TT 500 on the engines, fresh paint and interior, 530W, Collins digital, usual stuff and I got just under 2.5 in 2007 What's it worth today? $1-1.2 maybe?? I miss flying her, but when I open my AMEX bill I feel better.
Looking at some of the asking prices on Citations, I wonder if a 500 is worth anything? Late model 501's with good engine times are under $700K ask, probably can be bought for a LOT less. Nice looking 550's around $1,000,000 or less asking prices. It's a lot of airplane for not much money, but it takes a lot of money to keep a cheap airplane flying.

 

[wabower]

See #39. Gotta know own/op costs in order to make any valid comparison to other alternatives. Charter is very expensive and unless you are returning quickly you pay for two trips rather than just one.

Have you looked at the cost of chartering a plane? I would think it would not be that much more, and would free you up to either not go if people other then you need to make the trip, or free you up to work while on the trip.

It would also mean if the office closed, or you find out you don't need to go as often as you thought, that your not stuck with a plane.

 

[Mafoo]

See #39. Gotta know own/op costs in order to make any valid comparison to other alternatives. Charter is very expensive and unless you are returning quickly you pay for two trips rather than just one.

Yea, I am not sure what his needs/desires are.

Referencing this website, it's going to cost about $6,300 to charter the flight.

http://www.avchart.com/users/quotes...et=Depart&hourret=12:00+AM&dateret=11/16/2012

If you take Clay's numbers above, the same flight will cost you $3,500 if you own your own plane.

Plus he has a fixed cost of $22,000 a year just to own it.

That means if you fly every week, it will take 8 years until you spend a million more on the charter. plus the charter gives you the advantage of flexibility. If you need to take 8 people, you just charter a larger plane. If you have other business, but a group still needs to make the trip, you don't need to go.

Flight planing takes a lot of time as well. I would suspect the value of his time is high. He would have ~380 more hours a year to work on what he does, if he was not flying the plane every week.

It's worth thinking about anyway.

 

[wabower]

I don't think you fully understand this either.

Yea, I am not sure what his needs/desires are.

Referencing this website, it's going to cost about $6,300 to charter the flight.

http://www.avchart.com/users/quotes...et=Depart&hourret=12:00+AM&dateret=11/16/2012

If you take Clay's numbers above, the same flight will cost you $3,500 if you own your own plane.

Plus he has a fixed cost of $22,000 a year just to own it.

That means if you fly every week, it will take 8 years until you spend a million more on the charter. plus the charter gives you the advantage of flexibility. If you need to take 8 people, you just charter a larger plane. If you have other business, but a group still needs to make the trip, you don't need to go.

Flight planing takes a lot of time as well. I would suspect the value of his time is high. He would have ~380 more hours a year to work on what he does, if he was not flying the plane every week.

It's worth thinking about anyway.

 

[Mafoo]

I don't think you fully understand this either.

So your position is charter companies offer no real value to corporations?

Either it works for someone, or we should have all charter companies shut down.

I am not saying I know it works for him. I am just saying he should look into it.

You know, this is the first time here in 10 days, due to the negative responses I get just trying to learn, or in this case offer a suggestion to someone.

I fly and come here for fun. Coming here is lost it's fun, so I guess I need to just fly.

 

[Ted]

Charters typically cost at least 2x what you can operate the plane for yourself. At least, ones that have any hope of not going bankrupt. Just the 135 requirements add a lot of cost over a typical part 91, at least it did for the planes we flew.

 

[ronnieh]

Mafoo, I do not want to put words in Wayne's mouth but, he MIGHT be making the point that charter can work for the occasional trip that the airlines is not a viable option. Three or four trips a year maybe. A trip a week, not so much.

JSS, I think another thing that many here are saying is, running a corporate flight department is a full time job. A trip a week in a turbine aircraft is going to take some management time, flight planning, taking care of aviation related items at the destination. I assume your time is valuable if you can afford to own turbine equipment. How much time can you take away from your job? If you need to make the trips you mentioned early in this thread, buy an approiate aircraft, I think this will call for turbine power. Hire a pilot to fly and MANAGE the flight department or resign your position and become the company pilot.

Flying ain't cheap, if you can not afford it then stay out of it. Trying to operate a corporate flight department will eat your lunch if you are trying to do it on the cheap. Purchasing the plane is just the price of admission. After that the costs kick in. $1000/hr DOC and another $25K per year in fixed costs I believe will be a bare minimum with a turbine. I am sure Wayne can give some realistic numbers.

 

[N747JB]

Well, I bought it in 1999 the other tippy-tippy-top of the market, so it wasn't a money marker, but it was a GREAT time to sell! It's down your way now, it's been sold at least twice since 2007, once for the same thing I sold it for...............but I'm not sure about the latest transaction, it appears to be flying a lot out of the Dallas area. It's N40EP now, it's blocked on Flightaware.

Buyers are scarce, primarily due to fuel burn and the necessity for the Phase V inspections on 36-month intervals. A real nice 501 SP was recently parted out by a knowledgeable airplane industry company. 500's are worth the remaining time on the engines. 550's are half-mil give or take. 560's with high-time engines sell for $6-800k. Even at these "give-away" prices they linger on the market for many months.

Your sale in 2007 was at the very tippy-tippy-top of the market, although there was no way to know that at the time. Maybe just luck of the Irish, but in any event you done good.

 

[wabower]

I think I saw it on a 135 ramp yesterday. If so, the obvious assumption is that it's flying charters out of ADS. It was a new tail number for me, which is the only reason I noticed it.

Well, I bought it in 1999 the other tippy-tippy-top of the market, so it wasn't a money marker, but it was a GREAT time to sell! It's down your way now, it's been sold at least twice since 2007, once for the same thing I sold it for...............but I'm not sure about the latest transaction, it appears to be flying a lot out of the Dallas area. It's N40EP now, it's blocked on Flightaware.

 

[Everskyward]

Yea, I am not sure what his needs/desires are.

Referencing this website, it's going to cost about $6,300 to charter the flight.

http://www.avchart.com/users/quotes...et=Depart&hourret=12:00+AM&dateret=11/16/2012

If you take Clay's numbers above, the same flight will cost you $3,500 if you own your own plane.

Like others have said you are not looking at the whole cost of chartering. Did you look at the disclaimer on the bottom of the page?

Since the departure and return dates of your charter are different, there will either be additional overnight fees or a combination of roundtrip and/or one-way charters quoted to accommodate your charter which are NOT reflected in the estimate above. U.S. Skylink will analyze your request and determine the best option for you and your air charter investment.

ALL Estimates are based off a "Round Trip" quoting model, and do not include incidental fee's which may occur. Incidental fee's can be defined, but not limited to:

Landing, Ramp and After Hours Charges by Individual Airports
Loading/Off Loading Charges
Minimum Charter Fees
Aircraft Repositioning Fees
Daily Aircraft Fees, Crew Charges, Landing and/or Parking Fees
Catering and Other Optional Services
Federal Excise Tax and Passenger Segment Fees

The big thing is that if you stay for any length of time you will be either paying for two round trips or paying a minimum per day which is usually two hours plus the fee for the crew to sit.

To sum up, chartering is probably more expensive than you think but owning is much more of a commitment.

 

[Ted]

It's similar to the rent/own debate. By the time you look at restrictions on renting, you end up paying a lot more than just the straight hourly rental cost. One of my friends just ran into this issue with an Arrow he wanted to take on trips - the minimal daily rental meant it would end up costing him 15 hours of flight time for a 6 hour flight round trip.

 

[N747JB]

To sum up, chartering is probably more expensive than you think but owning is much more of a commitment.

And depending on the trip frequency chartering can be the best route, not the cheapest, but the best. If you are flying the same number of people to the same places, like the OP, it may make more sense to buy the "right" airplane. If the load, frequency and distance varies a lot, chartering different airplane types could be the ticket.
Bottom line, nothing like owning your own airplane.

 

[wabower]

They appear to be self-herding today, but with counterpart documents for three planes in three countries. Everybody is now on board to finish their piece of the transactions.

Term sheets to them today for comments, contracts executed with escrow deposits by mid-week, pre-buys start mid-December. All visual inspections and demo flights have been completed, so now it's down to paperwork, wrenching, baby-sitting, negotiation of squawks, closings and deliveries. Good shops working all three planes, so no biggies are expected.

Christmas may be enjoyable after all.

Sounds like someone could herd all these guys into a conference room with an attorney and a notary and rotate unit ownership one position counterclockwise around the table.

 

[jhausch]

To sum up, chartering is probably more expensive than you think but owning is much more of a commitment.

Wayne's update brought me back to this thread where I then noticed this quote.

It reminds me of the old eggs/bacon; chicken/pig; involved vs committed joke.

Back somewhat to topic: my dad commented the other day that there seems to be a proliferation of charter "brokers" - probably more of them than planes to charter. I said, well, there's probably more mutual funds than individual stocks, so I suppose that's not much of a surprise...just another way to earn a buck by providing a service.

Sure, chartering is likely more expensive if equal hours are compared, but if you find a good broker or company to work with, I bet it is a pleasant solution for the customer.

 

[Gubbins]

They appear to be self-herding today, but with counterpart documents for three planes in three countries. Everybody is now on board to finish their piece of the transactions.

Term sheets to them today for comments, contracts executed with escrow deposits by mid-week, pre-buys start mid-December. All visual inspections and demo flights have been completed, so now it's down to paperwork, wrenching, baby-sitting, negotiation of squawks, closings and deliveries. Good shops working all three planes, so no biggies are expected.

Christmas may be enjoyable after all.

Three big deals closing simultaneously? Congratulations!

 

[wabower]

Thanks. Glad it's finally coming together. All the pieces were in place a few months ago but nobody seemed to be willing to be the first penguin off the ice shelf.

it should have happened earlier

Three big deals closing simultaneously? Congratulations!