Yes another "Looking for my first plane thread"

Rebel Lord

Rebel Lord

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Rebel Lord
Just got my private certificate last week, really hyped but now I need a plane. I've already picked the type of plane I want, (Either a Archer I/II or a challenger or a Turbo Dakota) Because I learned in a Cherokee and want to stay with something i'm familiar with, but somthing under 200hp but atleast 180hp.

What I want to know is basically how not to get scammed or buy a plane that falls apart asoon as I get it because of something I didnt know to look at.

also this is an important point. I want to start my IFR training asoon as possible. I don't know anything about IFR or what I need for it. I want to make sure the Archer/Challenger/Dakota I get is a solid IFR plane to train in. From what I read a G430 is the best gps for this, but does it have to have WAAS? also wth is WAAS?

Edit; Also let me clarify that I know I need a pre purchase inspection from a mechanic but what can I look for myself before I have to pay for the inspection?
 
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How long are you going to own the plane, where are you flying(hi density altitude), how far, how much do weight do you want to carry, and how much are you willing to spend for acquisition and maintenance? Why limit yourself from a na dakota with the 235hp engine?
 
bijanmaleki said:
How long are you going to own the plane, where are you flying(hi density altitude), how far, how much do weight do you want to carry, and how much are you willing to spend for acquisition and maintenance? Why limit yourself from a na dakota with the 235hp engine?
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Well I want something simple and not far off from what I'm used too to start my IFR training.
Something with atleast 1000lbs useful load. Price wise I want to get a plane for around 50-60k. My end game is get a Saratoga but I don't want to jump into a large complex high power plane as a 20 year old and kill myself or my family so I want somthing slow and safe until I get more experience
 
Are you flying in the mountains or on the flatlands? 1k useful load you should look into a dakota or a earlier pa28-235, the turbo dakota is a little more complicated with a fixed wastegate and unless you need it for the mountains a 235 is a great load hauler.
 
The speed difference between a Dakota and Toga are pretty close, guessing within 10-15kts? The difference would be the Toga's heavier handling at slow/approach speed. Dollar for dollar, look at your 5 and 10 yr mission then make a purchase that will get you there.
 
Well it boils down to this, is it better to get what I want to end up in now, or work up to it?
 
Rebel Lord said:
Well it boils down to this, is it better to get what I want to end up in now, or work up to it?
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You just opened up a can of worms.

A lot of people thinknu should by your last airplane first, but the thing is , u don't know what your last airplane will be. Or what u want to fly when u have a ton more disposable income. I am not expert to give advise, but normally people have written on this board multiple times that for new pilot, it's best not to get too much of an airplane. I support that theory. Archer 2 I hear is a xc plane with about 900 useful load. It's not the fastest, but it getsbthe job done.

In the same boat as ypu, looking to buy soon, as a newbie, I am signing up for savvy pre-buy service. Check savvyaviation.com . The y are not going to do your pre-buy, but they will help u reviewing log, pointing out red flags and coordinating everything else. There is a whole thread on how good or bad they are, but from a newbie standpoint, I don't even know what to look for and their help, helps out a lot. Good luck

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
Rebel Lord said:
Just got my private certificate last week, really hyped but now I need a plane. I've already picked the type of plane I want, (Either a Archer I/II or a challenger or a Turbo Dakota) Because I learned in a Cherokee and want to stay with something i'm familiar with, but somthing under 200hp but atleast 180hp.

What I want to know is basically how not to get scammed or buy a plane that falls apart asoon as I get it because of something I didnt know to look at.

also this is an important point. I want to start my IFR training asoon as possible. I don't know anything about IFR or what I need for it. I want to make sure the Archer/Challenger/Dakota I get is a solid IFR plane to train in. From what I read a G430 is the best gps for this, but does it have to have WAAS? also wth is WAAS?

Edit; Also let me clarify that I know I need a pre purchase inspection from a mechanic but what can I look for myself before I have to pay for the inspection?
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You kinda need to have WAAS now. Garmin has either or will soon be dropping support for non WAAS GPS systems. I would also look to get at least a 530W, most of the better equipped IFR planes will have at least this GPS, and there is not a major price penalty in the after market for the 530. For a distance plane or an IFR plane, also try and get something with autopilot. I am not saying it is essential, but it will make you life much easier. It does not need to be a fancy system just direction and alt hold is really all you need, but being able to do coupled approaches with the GPS is really nice. If you want to do longer XC the autopilot just make flying especially IFR less tiring and stressful.

If you are sticking with Piper I would lean toward the Dakota of Cherokee 235. That extra HP really helps with useful load, and somewhat with speed. Plus, you can then get your HP sign off, and get a constant speed prop. As a few others have mentioned a Cherokee 6, or fixed gear toga would also be a good pick. The added weight of the 6 seaters, make them very stable IFR platforms. As a low time pilot the insurance companies would give you some grief with anything retract.
 
drotto said:
If you are sticking with Piper I would lean toward the Dakota [or] Cherokee 235.
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Not for 50-60K....

Get an older 180 or Archer. Older will probably have higher UL.

Get friendly with a local A/P and get advice on what to look for. You're already pretty familiar with the type which helps.

Don't forget that a clean pre-buy doesn't mean you won't have to overhaul after the next hour. Make sure you have budget left to cover that plus anything else that shows up the first year or two. Plan 10% of purchase price to fix things that crop up during the pre-buy or by the next annual. Make sure you use your own A&P, and don't fall for the "fresh annual" ads.
 
Congratulations on your PPL! The best is yet to come.

You do not need a GPS to learn or fly IFR. But it's very useful to have an IFR-approved GPS that has been installed in an IFR-approved manner. It's useful in both VFR and IFR flight in the real world. You do not need a WAAS (a system that improves the accuracy of the GPS receiver) GPS, but having one gets you lots of convenience including precision approaches nearly as good as an ILS in many places, not needing to file alternate airports with non-GPS approaches, not needing a backup navigation system capable of flying your planned route, and so on. So I suggest focusing on planes that already have an IFR-approved WAAS GPS that has an IFR-approved installation. I also suggest paying the FAA $10.00 to get the records for any plane you are thinking about looking at as a serious buyer. I did that for a plane I really wanted, which had a Garmin 430W installed, and learned from the FAA records that the 430W installation was only approved for VFR flight. It costs close enough to a new GPS installation to convert a VFR-only installation to IFR-approved, so I passed on that plane.

As far as what plane to get, there are a lot of nice planes in your price range. So narrow it down a bit by mission. What altitudes will you normally be at and what is your typical mission, in terms of distance and load? The Cherokee 180 that I got my PPL in had a 1,075 lb. useful load and a Garmin 650, among other nice features. I needed more speed for my typical mission and I had a chance to buy half an Arrow 180, otherwise I would have snagged the Cherokee. For your mission, if your typical trip isn't too far, a Cherokee 180 would be pretty cheap to keep.
 
Ok so I've found a possible buy, problem is its a 1000 miles away. Apart from having to fly it back, how much would it be to pay someone to ferry it to me assuming the flight is over 9 hours total, not including fuel stops and rest stops.
 
If you want as reliable and trouble free plane as possible, spend more money to buy the BEST airplane of the model you can find, with the avionics you want (avionics are EXTREMELY expensive and you rarely get any of the money back when you sell). An extra 10k spent on a better plane is worth it in less aggravation and cost of repair and downtime. Of course that means you have to FIND and VERIFY the plane's condition. That's not easy. Don't use any mechanics on the field where the plane is based, they have conflict of interest. Im of the opinion that the mechanic should do a compression test (owner NOT present) and look for corrosion and cut open the oil filter. The rest of the plane can be checked out by you. Basically, does everything work? If not what doesn't and how much to repair. This prebuy costs money and aggravation and takes time and effort. Newer planes are generally better condition than older ones. Planes that have lived in dry climates are usually more corrosion free than ones that have lived in humid climates. It really helps to find one close to home, but it seems like you never do. Look for the newest, lowest time, damage free airplane you can afford. They have the best odds of fewest problems. Good luck!

One thing to consider, we are all going to get hit with this ADSB transponder requirement by 2020. That is a 5k upgrade (or more) and very few planes out there have it now. Oh, and if you are cost conscious, don't get a turbo.
 
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Rebel Lord said:
Ok so I've found a possible buy, problem is its a 1000 miles away. Apart from having to fly it back, how much would it be to pay someone to ferry it to me assuming the flight is over 9 hours total, not including fuel stops and rest stops.
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Ferry guys are usually a few hundred a day plus expenses. Where to where and what is it?
 
Rebel Lord said:
Ok so I've found a possible buy, problem is its a 1000 miles away. Apart from having to fly it back, how much would it be to pay someone to ferry it to me assuming the flight is over 9 hours total, not including fuel stops and rest stops.
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Unless it's some sort of "special" aircraft, I would avoid buying something that far away.
 
Las Vegas to Houston, and its a Cherokee 180
 
coloradobluesky said:
....with the avionics you want (avionics are EXTREMELY expensive and you rarely get any of the money back when you sell).
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That's true if you buy a plane worth $40K, because no matter what avionics you put into it, you are not going to turn it into a $80K plane based on avionics. Your upside is limited.
If you buy a $200K plane, the new fancy avionics can improve the price especially since people spending that kind of money expect more modern avionics.
 
So Im emailing with a person who is selling a cherokee 180, it has all the stuff I want, (Autopilot, g430w, leather interior, fresh paint) and its within 400 miles.

I'm asking only basic questions like how many previous owners and if there is any damage history. Any suggestions on anything else I should ask about?

Also I want it for my IFR training but its not IFR current, is that a deal breaker or is that a pretty cheap inspection.
 
Rebel Lord said:
So Im emailing with a person who is selling a cherokee 180, it has all the stuff I want, (Autopilot, g430w, leather interior, fresh paint) and its within 400 miles.

I'm asking only basic questions like how many previous owners and if there is any damage history. Any suggestions on anything else I should ask about?

Also I want it for my IFR training but its not IFR current, is that a deal breaker or is that a pretty cheap inspection.
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Inspection is a couple of hours of labor. I don't think I can tell you how many owners my plane had, it's not in the logs, and why does it matter? I ask for electronic copies of the maintenance logs, they'll tell you alot if you know what to look for. Like what ADs were done, has it been active, damage repairs, etc
 
I hope you realize that the real cost of a plane is more than the initial plane cost.

I thought I wanted plane too when I got my ticket but after adding up the costs, and dividing by the max amount of hours that I would possibly fly, it's cheaper to rent.
 
orange said:
I hope you realize that the real cost of a plane is more than the initial plane cost.

I thought I wanted plane too when I got my ticket but after adding up the costs, and dividing by the max amount of hours that I would possibly fly, it's cheaper to rent.
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Well I also need to to commute to work. I have to go work offshore, instead of drivig six hours to the airport to fly off shore i would rather fly an hour and a half land at the airport and hop on the helicopter, and not pay the rent fee plus tie down for the week.
 
mtuomi said:
Nonsense. Especially with a 430.
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From the articles I read at the time, I came away concluding that it depends on why it was only approved for VFR use. The reasons could vary from placement in the panel to lack of annunciators to a non-approved antenna cable. Without a record of why the approval was limited to VFR, it could have been anything. At the time, I did not find any solid evidence for a categorical "if you have a VFR-only 430 installation it is cheap or easy to get IFR approval." I certainly could have been wrong in my conservative conclusions. But the main point stands: The $10.00 investment to get the records is a good one. You can't even pay for a tank of gas in your car to go look at an airplane for that much money.
 
iamtheari said:
From the articles I read at the time, I came away concluding that it depends on why it was only approved for VFR use. The reasons could vary from placement in the panel to lack of annunciators to a non-approved antenna cable. Without a record of why the approval was limited to VFR, it could have been anything. At the time, I did not find any solid evidence for a categorical "if you have a VFR-only 430 installation it is cheap or easy to get IFR approval." I certainly could have been wrong in my conservative conclusions. But the main point stands: The $10.00 investment to get the records is a good one. You can't even pay for a tank of gas in your car to go look at an airplane for that much money.
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I agree with the $10. 430 IFR certification is very very simple, thanks to the STC AML. If it is mounted too far from the scan, you can buy a MDxx annunciator/CDI for a hundred or two. No need for the 337 paperwork/AFMS approvals. Worst case scenario, budget $500, and that is if you need a new antenna, antenna cable and the annunciator.
btw: even if the initial 337 paperwork says VFR only, 430W can be made IFR legal with just a logbook entry, so don't judge a plane based on the FAA docs alone.
 
mtuomi said:
I agree with the $10. 430 IFR certification is very very simple, thanks to the STC AML. If it is mounted too far from the scan, you can buy a MDxx annunciator/CDI for a hundred or two. No need for the 337 paperwork/AFMS approvals. Worst case scenario, budget $500, and that is if you need a new antenna, antenna cable and the annunciator.
btw: even if the initial 337 paperwork says VFR only, 430W can be made IFR legal with just a logbook entry, so don't judge a plane based on the FAA docs alone.
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I wish I had complained here back when I was looking at that plane. C'est la vie.
 
orange said:
I hope you realize that the real cost of a plane is more than the initial plane cost.

I thought I wanted plane too when I got my ticket but after adding up the costs, and dividing by the max amount of hours that I would possibly fly, it's cheaper to rent.
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It's not always about what's "cheaper." It's cheaper to rent a car only when you need one, but the hassle factor is huge.
 
Heres an update. If the plane is about to go get an annual and I inspect the plane personally and go for a test flight, do I really need a expensive pre buy inspection?
 
Rebel Lord said:
Heres an update. If the plane is about to go get an annual and I inspect the plane personally and go for a test flight, do I really need a expensive pre buy inspection?
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Who is doing the annual? When you inspect the plane, be sure the fuel tanks are full, check carefully for leaks. Annual doesn't check everything, for example they don't care if the autopilot is broken.
 
teejayevans said:
Who is doing the annual? When you inspect the plane, be sure the fuel tanks are full, check carefully for leaks. Annual doesn't check everything, for example they don't care if the autopilot is broken.
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idk the guys mechanic I think.
 
Rebel Lord said:
do I really need a expensive pre buy inspection?
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How do you know the real price if you don't know what's broken? And worse, would you buy something broken that can kill you? Factor in the prebuy inspection to the price and see if you still want it.
 
Rebel Lord said:
Heres an update. If the plane is about to go get an annual and I inspect the plane personally and go for a test flight, do I really need a expensive pre buy inspection?
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Yes. Especially if you have to ask, or if you're like me and never done this before. (If I cheap out here, then I probably am going to have a tough time financially keeping it airworthy when I own it.)

Why should you trust that a seller's mechsnic's annual will get the job done? That's a total conflict of interest.

If there is a Cherokee owners group or buyers guide, that will give you a wealth of info. I am looking for a particular C182 and joined a club and got a buyers guide and it has a shetload of great info as to what to look for in that model, specific year issues, and also in general with any single engine plane. Do it.
 
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Rebel Lord said:
Heres an update. If the plane is about to go get an annual and I inspect the plane personally and go for a test flight, do I really need a expensive pre buy inspection?
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I'd try negotiating with them if it's not actually out of annual yet. You take the plane to a mechanic of your choice to do the pre-buy and have them upgrade it to an annual if you buy the plane and the seller drops some portion off the cost.

I'm doing this now, but since the annual wasn't due for a couple months doing the annual now is at my expense but was only a few hundred more in labor and parts than the pre-buy was.

Also, as far as the pre-buy cost, there was an item the seller said "oh, it's fine" but the mechanic declared it an airworthiness issue so the seller is fixing it, that one item paid for the pre-buy instead of me having to have it done it at the next annual.
 
Get an independent (your mechanic, you pay, owner not around) compression test and check for corrosion. Everything else should be able to be checked if it works or not by the buyer.
 
chartbundle said:
I'd try negotiating with them if it's not actually out of annual yet. You take the plane to a mechanic of your choice to do the pre-buy and have them upgrade it to an annual if you buy the plane and the seller drops some portion off the cost.

I'm doing this now, but since the annual wasn't due for a couple months doing the annual now is at my expense but was only a few hundred more in labor and parts than the pre-buy was.

Also, as far as the pre-buy cost, there was an item the seller said "oh, it's fine" but the mechanic declared it an airworthiness issue so the seller is fixing it, that one item paid for the pre-buy instead of me having to have it done it at the next annual.
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Well it's out of annual by 2 months, the owner is getting the annual done as soon as he can fly it to the mechanic.

I mean if a mechanic shop says it's airworthy enough to pass an annual shouldn't that be enough? He sent me loads of pictures and all the logs and it looks pretty good. I
 
Rebel Lord said:
I mean if a mechanic shop says it's airworthy enough to pass an annual shouldn't that be enough? He sent me loads of pictures and all the logs and it looks pretty good. I
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Hahahahahahahaha. Er, sorry.

An annual only looks at airworthiness today, a pre-buy should be able to tell you things that aren't a problem today but will become one soon. The seller, and the seller's mechanic are only concerned with the plane until you buy it. In my case the item that the seller said "was fine" had passed at least a couple annuals from his mechanic and would probably have "passed" another one if I just accepted an annual. There was another issue with a mis-installed STC that was years old and every annual had missed it and just assumed whoever did the STC installation did it right, the pre-buy finally caught it since the A&P looked at every STC and verified the installations, I suspect if I had just asked for an annual it wouldn't have been noticed even from a different mechanic.
 
chartbundle said:
Hahahahahahahaha. Er, sorry.

An annual only looks at airworthiness today, a pre-buy should be able to tell you things that aren't a problem today but will become one soon. The seller, and the seller's mechanic are only concerned with the plane until you buy it. In my case the item that the seller said "was fine" had passed at least a couple annuals from his mechanic and would probably have "passed" another one if I just accepted an annual. There was another issue with a mis-installed STC that was years old and every annual had missed it and just assumed whoever did the STC installation did it right, the pre-buy finally caught it since the A&P looked at every STC and verified the installations, I suspect if I had just asked for an annual it wouldn't have been noticed even from a different mechanic.
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Where do I find a mechanic who is trust worthy when the plane is a 8 hour drive, can I trust any other mechanic at that airport? Also the mechanic who is doing the annual is at another airport from where the plane is hangared.
 
Rebel Lord said:
Where do I find a mechanic who is trust worthy when the plane is a 8 hour drive, can I trust any other mechanic at that airport? Also the mechanic who is doing the annual is at another airport from where the plane is hangared.
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Check the logs and see where it had been maintained and go somewhere else first off. You might ask on here for people who live in the area where the plane is if they have any recommendations. If there's an owners group/type club or forum for that type you might ask them if they have any recommendations. Also, see if the type club has any pre-canned lists of pre-buy items they recommend be checked on that specific model. Since it's a pretty common model you'll probably do fine with most mechanics. You can then call the mechanics and ask if they have a pre-buy price for the model and if they don't do pre-buy inspections then ask who they recommend. Generally a pre-buy should be a fixed price and they should be able to tell you exactly how much it will cost since there's no repairs or anything else being done.

In my case, the plane I'm looking at was right between two well known shops for that model, so I had the seller take it to the one who didn't do the last annual.
 
chartbundle said:
Hahahahahahahaha. Er, sorry.

An annual only looks at airworthiness today, a pre-buy should be able to tell you things that aren't a problem today but will become one soon. The seller, and the seller's mechanic are only concerned with the plane until you buy it. In my case the item that the seller said "was fine" had passed at least a couple annuals from his mechanic and would probably have "passed" another one if I just accepted an annual. There was another issue with a mis-installed STC that was years old and every annual had missed it and just assumed whoever did the STC installation did it right, the pre-buy finally caught it since the A&P looked at every STC and verified the installations, I suspect if I had just asked for an annual it wouldn't have been noticed even from a different mechanic.
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Missed STC issue on a plane I'm looking at now. Missed by many people. Engine swap in the late 1980s, engine crapped out, instead of rebuild/overhaul, the engine core was swapped for another. STC was never considered when the serial numbered core disappeared into the wild blue yonder.
 
Rebel Lord said:
Where do I find a mechanic who is trust worthy when the plane is a 8 hour drive, can I trust any other mechanic at that airport? Also the mechanic who is doing the annual is at another airport from where the plane is hangared.
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I reached out to Savvy for help last week. Will use whatever mechanic they recommend.
 
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