XC time to get IR

[saracelica]

Was talking with another pilot friend and we were talking about the Instrument Rating and why the Regulations require 50 hours of XC PIC time. Anyone have any insights? I pondered that maybe it was so Private Pilots could get use to watching weather and traveling distances but then the friends said "Okay well if you go just 51nm away it's still XC time but not far enough to change weather on your" Just do that 100 times and you'll have the necessary time.

 

[Z06_Mir]

Because it teaches you a ton. I was wondering the same thing and then I actually went out and got the 50 hours of XC PIC time and I realized it was completely necessary. If you just fly in the pattern after your PPL you haven't really learned much but if you go to new airports with different procedures and characteristics you'll learn a lot. The weather thing is probably true too but I tried to go on days where I didn't *need* to learn a lot about weather except it was nice when I left and nice when I got back. But I did that on purpose sooo yeah. It also forces you to leave home base and think about different scenarios like engine outs, shifting weather, NORDO etc.

 

[nosehair]

Originally...or at least post WWII regulations required a Commercial Pilot Certificate before getting the IR, which included the 50 hour PIC X/C.
In those days, light airplane instrument and nav technology wasn't considered safe enough for the average PP/ light airplane.
Instrument flying was for experienced professionals.

General aviation pilots and airplanes developed and regulations changed to allow the PP to get the IR with 1/2 the required Commercial total time, but retaining the 50 hour x/c time. Then finally dropping the total time requirement but still keeping the 50 x/c. The main point was to require some experience, both in wx, and in operating at other airports, which can be just as unpredictable as wx.

Now you can get the PP w/IR without the 50 x/c, if you do it all in your initial PP certification.

Technology. GA experience.

 

[jspilot]

Logically, the 50 hour requirement so that pilots experience weather does not make sense, a non IFR pilot should not be flying XC's on days in which the weather requires the IFR rating. I have no idea why the rule is in place but I doubt it's so pilots experience different weather, that does not make much sense.

In my 25 hours of XC since getting my PPL I've learned a ton. My guess is that the rule forces pilots like me to gain experience going to different airports and planning for flights. No matter how far the XC is, you have to plan ahead as the pilot and that seems important as a skill.

 

[nosehair]

a non IFR pilot should not be flying XC's on days in which the weather requires the IFR rating.

Well. it isn't that black-and-white, you know - weather, I mean.
Even if you TRY to avoid weather, chances are you will have to divert or delay or cancel, or do something other than what you plan.

But if you focus your wx planning, and go out to actually see what a forcast becomes in real life, you will develop the x/c skills that lead you safely into instrument flying.

You don't suddenly become experienced by getting the specific IR training.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

Logically, the 50 hour requirement so that pilots experience weather does not make sense, a non IFR pilot should not be flying XC's on days in which the weather requires the IFR rating. I have no idea why the rule is in place but I doubt it's so pilots experience different weather, that does not make much sense.

In my 25 hours of XC since getting my PPL I've learned a ton. My guess is that the rule forces pilots like me to gain experience going to different airports and planning for flights. No matter how far the XC is, you have to plan ahead as the pilot and that seems important as a skill.

No, you are missing the point. You can gain experience in reading weather forecasts and then flying. Weather can effect your flight without being IMC. Evaluating weather enroute and making plans accordingly is a valuable skill. You are still very inexperienced, so your misunderstanding is not surprising.

 

[TMetzinger]

You will learn a lot on that X/C experience about weather planning, just so that you can make the flights VFR. And it reinforces the sense of command responsibility when you are flying to get somewhere, not just buzzing around locally.

 

[douglas393]

No, you are missing the point. You can gain experience in reading weather forecasts and then flying. Weather can effect your flight without being IMC. Evaluating weather enroute and making plans accordingly is a valuable skill. You are still very inexperienced, so your misunderstanding is not surprising.

I learned a number of things in doing the 50 hours of x-country VFR prior to getting my IFR. Most importantly I learned to be able to evaluate the conditions to determine whether to fly on not to fly. During training, my CFI was always there to help make the decision. When you are on your own the decision is not as always easy. I learned a lot of hubris. I also learned how my plane reacts in different conditions, windy, calm, cold, hot, cloudy, clear, etc. Comfortability in the changing chartacteristics of flying in the stages of flight, and settings, as well as the actions I need to take also occurs from the 50 hours of flight. Finally, learning to identify conditions ahead and to be encountered by all available resources, ATC, data link, observation, etc occurred during these flights.

By no means am I fully capable in all of these endeavors, however, my abilities to do them greatly improved by flying these hours. I for one feel they added to my abilities.

Doug

 

[jspilot]

No, you are missing the point. You can gain experience in reading weather forecasts and then flying. Weather can effect your flight without being IMC. Evaluating weather enroute and making plans accordingly is a valuable skill. You are still very inexperienced, so your misunderstanding is not surprising.

Granted I don't have hundreds of hours but of course I understand your point. I've cancelled many flights because the weather was below my personal limitations. I've also flown in days during which the weather was not perfect so I could see what those days looked like.

It just seems illogical to place a required number of hours to obtain an instrumant rating, a rating that is designed to be used under poor conditions, with the basis being that the applicants for the instrument rating should have experienced all kinds of weather in those 50 hours. I'm sure we can all attest to the fact that the local airport is much busier on clear and unlimited visibility days as opposed to overcast 2,000 days. If the 50 hour rule was intended to be based on flying in all sorts of weather, I'd suspect a bunch of pilots getting their instrument rating right after their PPL would certainly not qualify because their is no way they have the experience required. My only point is, planning and experience is more likely the baseline for the rule rather than flying in all sorts of weather.

 

[Jaybird180]

Seems the Wx answers are covered and thanks to nosehair, history is too. As I'd bee collecting XC hours myself I noticed that my attitude toward flying changed. All of my flying tended toward getting some place efficiently.

In October, I took my longest flight to date, a 600nm round robin same-24hr-period trip with my family to an airport that I'd never been to before, even commercial - a Class B. I experienced a lot, more that I can say I LEARNED. What I did was APPLIED the Wx training I recently received from attending ScottD's seminar.

In the final analysis, I think the 50hr rule will help a PPL decide for himself if he really need the IR or not. If I continue flying, I will.

 

[poadeleted20]

Now you can get the PP w/IR without the 50 x/c, if you do it all in your initial PP certification.

That's a bit misleading. You still need 50 total hours of XC time, but you can get 45 of them flying XC's with an instructor while performing the duties of PIC rather than logging PIC time (since you can't log PIC time other than solo until you get your PP). The other 5 hours of XC time come from the 5 hours of solo XC required for the PP, which really is XC PIC time. See 61.65(g) for details.

Only way to avoid the 50 hours of XC time on this route is to be in an approved combined PP/IR 141 program (see Part 141 Appendix M for details), and outside of some university aviation programs, there aren't many of those yet. The FAA minimum for those courses is 70 hours of training with an instructor, including at least 35 hours of instrument flight training, plus at least 5 hours of solo flying, for a total of at least 75 hours. My friends at MTSU tell me their students are generally taking around 85-90 total hours to reach the necessary proficiency to pass the final combined PP/IR checkride.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Was talking with another pilot friend and we were talking about the Instrument Rating and why the Regulations require 50 hours of XC PIC time. Anyone have any insights? I pondered that maybe it was so Private Pilots could get use to watching weather and traveling distances but then the friends said "Okay well if you go just 51nm away it's still XC time but not far enough to change weather on your" Just do that 100 times and you'll have the necessary time.

IMO taking 51nm trips is a waste of money or very nearly a waste of money and time.

I recommend that you go do some living. Enjoy a trip, visit a friend, do some $200 hamburger flights. Let your friends split some gas/rental. I would roughly split my flying between for fun cross country and IR training and I suspect you will get have all your requirements at about the same time and the time will go fast. Some of those trips you can have a safety pilot and log some hood time as well.

Start filling in your map landing in airports in all the states adjacent to your home state. Once you have your IR you are no doubt going to want 250 hrs to get your commercial next so just start to enjoy the journey.

 

[saracelica]

My question was WHY do they have the requirement. I believe it was answered above. Thanks!

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

My question was WHY do they have the requirement. I believe it was answered above. Thanks!

If you do not state a context directly then the reader must infer one. Why is the sky blue? why is the dirt brown? Why do you need 50 hrs xc? Leaves one to infer a context. Is he asking for academic reasons contemplating the world or what.....

Then you end your paragraph stating your friend recommended just do 100 51 nm trips which gives the context of minimizing effort/time or cost to achieve same. This is a typical context for someone contemplating $120 at 50 hrs at a typical flight school.

 

[Z06_Mir]

I went on so many sweet adventures in my 50 hours. I did a couple 60nm trips just to fill time before work and build the time too.. but I had a great time flying with people to new places just because we could. Sometimes I wish I hadn't flown because some of those airport bars are something else!!

 

[MDeitch1976]

IMO taking 51nm trips is a waste of money or very nearly a waste of money and time.

I recommend that you go do some living. Enjoy a trip, visit a friend, do some $200 hamburger flights. Let your friends split some gas/rental. I would roughly split my flying between for fun cross country and IR training and I suspect you will get have all your requirements at about the same time and the time will go fast. Some of those trips you can have a safety pilot and log some hood time as well.

This is what I want to do. It is a little more difficult from a rental stand point. What if weather traps me in another location with a rental and am I going to be penalized by the FBO? Am I going to put in enough time for where I am going to meet the minimum for the rental? Is the rental going to be available? Hopefully, in not to long I will be joining a club. Which will make this much easier.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Because it teaches you a ton. I was wondering the same thing and then I actually went out and got the 50 hours of XC PIC time and I realized it was completely necessary. If you just fly in the pattern after your PPL you haven't really learned much but if you go to new airports with different procedures and characteristics you'll learn a lot. The weather thing is probably true too but I tried to go on days where I didn't *need* to learn a lot about weather except it was nice when I left and nice when I got back. But I did that on purpose sooo yeah. It also forces you to leave home base and think about different scenarios like engine outs, shifting weather, NORDO etc.

I agree. I have barely 50 Hours PIC XC now and I have learned a LOT even though much of it has not been much farther than 50NM one way.

Not only have I experienced many different things of all types, but I have DRASTICALLY improved my flying precision. I can hold a heading and altitude WAY better than I ever dreamed I would be capable of.

Now if I get just get my Marker Beacon fixed and straighten out my antennas, I'll be ready to get really serious about my IR training.