XC Night VFR or IFR?

G

Gubbins

Ejection Handle Pulled
Joined
Dec 2, 2011
Messages
379
Display Name
Display name:
gone for good
I just saw the other thread on disorientation when flying IFR at night in IMC conditions. I generally don't fly at night for long trips, simply because I'm flying for fun (not business) and choose to go during the day where I can see more.

A couple of days ago I had the experience where I was heading back from San Francisco to Las Vegas (just before the weather came in). I wanted to fly VFR so I had to fly down to almost Fresno before I could get above the layer, and climb high enough to cross the Sierra Nevada and chose to do that near Mt Whitney. The sun was just setting and it was stunning seeing the peak glowing red. But shortly after passing by the peak, it got dark really quickly seeing that I was flying east with a strong tail wind and at some point I realized I couldn't see anything at all. No lights, no horizon, no nothing. Just the knowledge that there were mountains out there. I have SVT, and from the moving map and my sectional as well I knew I had no issues. I was well above the OROCA for the area. But even so I thought to myself "This is BS, this is not VFR, I can't see anything". Couple that with some fairly strong turbulence from the strong tail winds coming over the mountains, it was more than a little disconcerting. So I promptly asked for (and got) a popup IFR clearance because it just didn't feel right to be flying VFR in those conditions (even though it was legal). Something that was going through my mind was that if visibility dropped below VFR limits in those conditions, I wouldn't even know because it was so dark.

So this leads me to the question, for those of you who do fly long distances at night, do you prefer to go IFR or VFR?
 
Just a quick point, if you did encounter IMC in those conditions, you would likely know it by the reflection of your strobes.

I virtually always go IFR at night. I didn't get that rating for nothing. I think it decreases risk because I am more disciplined. Can't hurt that a controller is (hopefully) paying attention to what I am doing as well.
 
Not being instrument rated but wanting to keep some amount of night currency and experience, I do occasionally plan night XCs; however, since I'm so new, I usually go on a cloudless night with a bright moon. Makes a HUGE difference.
 
Well,

Being the one that posted about night IFR before I think I can give you some advice........ Get your IFR rating as soon as posible and use it.

I live on an island (Puerto Rico in the Caribbean) All my fellow caribbean pilots know that if you take off in any of the airports in our area is just a matter of seconds that you will be flying overwater.... It can be a cloudless night... As soon as you go overwater there is no horizon... Pitch black.... It is a DeFacto IFR. Same thing during mountain flying or a big valley without lights.

An IFR rating even during VFR conditions at night can save your day... Just ask me how I know this......:mad2:
 
IFR for sure. I find once you learn "The system" it's just easier. You don't need to worry about being VFR and hitting clouds etc.....

Cheers


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
If you already passed Mt Whitney, then the tallest thing around you is behind you, just don't descend. There are still a couple of high ridges to get into the LAS valley.

I have my IFR rating, makes a big difference out here in the desert SW. Just having the skills to maintain right side up with no horizon. I don't always go IFR at night, IFR MEAs may be to high, but you can count that I'm on flight following.
 
ChrisK said:
Not being instrument rated but wanting to keep some amount of night currency and experience, I do occasionally plan night XCs; however, since I'm so new, I usually go on a cloudless night with a bright moon. Makes a HUGE difference.
Click to expand...


Try a full moon night with scattered clouds... it is very easy to spot them. Altho a full moon night with a fresh coating of snow on the ground is magical..:yes:
 
IFR at night for me, here in the Midwest.

I don't see any downside to IFR, when it is night, as long as I can file as equipment /G. Traffic is not busy at night, so ATC doesn't vector me around.

And there is plenty of upside, even if there is no terrain to hit out here. For one thing, being told what the weather radar shows is nice.
 
I always fly IFR for long distances, day or noght. I find IFR much easier than VFR. Living in the land of TFRs and cruel airspace, letting ATC coordinate it all is just easier.

At night, if it is local, I'm usually just doing currency or local sightseeing, and I schedule them when there is a moon and VFR is not a problem. Well...the DC SFRA version of VFR anyways.....
 
Ron Levy said:
IFR for me, too -- just not worth accidentally running into a cloud.
Click to expand...

Ditto for me. At least three times when I've gone on a VFR night XC, I blundered into unforecast clouds and ended up air-filing.
 
I didn't have a choice for a long time. Also have weird schedules so night was often the only free time.

I've flown a lot of night VFR. Moon phase is critical info. Cloud cover also.

I've done the moonless night thing over the prairie. It's dark. Real dark. Especially with a high overcast. You're referring to instruments whether you are filed or not.

Was also real careful about cloud layers. Never did the inadvertent cloud thing at night, but it's easy to see how it can kill the unprepared. (Did my inadvertent cloud thing in broad daylight actually. Wasn't fun back then.)

Also had LAS TRACON try to descend me into terrain at night. I refused. One of the few times I've been forced to use the magic word "unable" and really really meant it.

Now that I have a choice, I'll file IFR at night anywhere outside the city or areas I know well.
 
BillTIZ said:
If you already passed Mt Whitney, then the tallest thing around you is behind you, just don't descend. There are still a couple of high ridges to get into the LAS valley.
Click to expand...


Yes, that is true. But I was looking ahead and planning how to approach KVGT. As you know, the Spring Mountains are in the way for the route I was following, and you also need to make sure you get low enough to not bust the Bravo, and you have that military restricted area as well. It would have been shorter to go north of the Spring Mountains, but less risky to go south of them (and longer). This is what was going through my mind before I decided to bail on doing my own navigation.

All of that just evaporated by getting an IFR clearance to KVGT, since ATC then took on the responsibility to get me to the airport. They took me north of the Spring Mountains, and it was quite impressive how low they were able to get me. I couldn't see a danged thing until I got north of the mountain, but was watching on the SVT and following on the sectional. For me I find that flying IFR is a lot easier and less stressful than flying VFR since you basically just do what you're told. VFR is a lot more fun though. You can't see much at night anyway for a XC, so in future I will just file IFR all the way.
 
If I am just staying local I will fly VFR at night. Anything more IFR. The risk is just not worth it.

Doug
 
To me, flying VFR versus IFR in VMC at night is not very different. I always use VFR flight following, and my instrument scan VFR at night is no different than IFR night. I'm looking for traffic either way. The only difference is the routing, and the ability to fly through clouds under IFR.

If I'm flying in the Northeast, IFR routings are often circuitous and unpredictable. If I know I'll have good VFR weather, I'm going VFR. If There's any question as to whether I'll be able to remain VFR, I'll file and fly IFR.

As far as safety, I prefer to have more control over my routings at night. You loose some of that control under IFR, and end up either accepting what's been given and negotiating with ATC. Those of you familiar with NY approach know that theres just not a lot of latitude for routings IFR.

If I'm heading anywhere south of my base, sure, I'll do IFR. With generally direct routings, it's a wash, and a whole lot easier in most circumstances.
 
You don't want to know what I've done in the dark.

I've learned (even if legal) not to post that sort of thing on POA with my name next to it.

Though not a "mistake" per se, yeah, it was really scary and a HUGE eye opener.

Night may be called VFR but when you can't see a thing it seems like IFR. I did have the thought to fly by instruments in a way until I got to populated areas where there were actually lights and airports with PCL etc.

Something I will probably never do again (long story and in truth the whole thing was a unique set of circumstances) but they do say "license to learn."
 
Kim, I hope you actually DID fly by the instruments (and for real, not just "in a way") until you reached an area where you had visual reference. If you really couldn't see anything, the other possibilities are probably scarier than whatever it is you didn't want to post!

I came to the conclusion some time ago that you would have to be super conservative and then some to never ever encounter instrument conditions in legal VMC, unless you never flew at night outside of populated areas. It's too easy to fly into an area with few or no ground lights and realize suddenly that you need to be on the instruments. I'm not in favor of requiring more instrument time for the PPL, because no amount is enough if you let the skills evaporate. But I think that even if you don't ever want to get the IR, it's worth it to get enough recurrent training in instrument flight to be able to anticipate conditions like that and deal with them safely and confidently (whether that means turning around or pushing forward, depends on your personal proficiency level and minimums).
 
Depends on the night, some nights are dark, some nights are bright enough to read. If I don't have a moon out and open to see the clouds by I'll file and go IFR, but that hasn't been too many times.
 
azure said:
Kim, I hope you actually DID fly by the instruments (and for real, not just "in a way") until you reached an area where you had visual reference. If you really couldn't see anything, the other possibilities are probably scarier than whatever it is you didn't want to post!

I came to the conclusion some time ago that you would have to be super conservative and then some to never ever encounter instrument conditions in legal VMC, unless you never flew at night outside of populated areas. It's too easy to fly into an area with few or no ground lights and realize suddenly that you need to be on the instruments. I'm not in favor of requiring more instrument time for the PPL, because no amount is enough if you let the skills evaporate. But I think that even if you don't ever want to get the IR, it's worth it to get enough recurrent training in instrument flight to be able to anticipate conditions like that and deal with them safely and confidently (whether that means turning around or pushing forward, depends on your personal proficiency level and minimums).
Click to expand...

Yes, I did fly by instruments, and yes, this place was nowhere near a populated area and therefore much darker than I thought it would be. Terrain made it even darker.

As mentioned, perfect VFR night flying conditions but dark is dark. Well, maybe not perfect since I don't think I had a full moon. But perfect as in no (reported or seen) clouds below one two thousand.
 
Night VFR XC time for me. Almost exclusively. But I'm not a VFR only rated pilot and my day job keeps me desensitized from the relative challenges of instrument cross check in a light piston single going 2 miles a minute. I can see how the feat could be a lot more of a hassle and/or turn dangerous for the non-current. Certainly don't do it if it exceeds your comfort level or if it's not fun, that's my motto. :)
 
cirrusmx said:
99% of the time I file IFR. The exception is when doing local perfect weather hops.
Click to expand...
My style as well. IFR for me means remaining "tuned up" from taxi out to taxi in. Everything is more organized, my situational awareness is enhanced, and I find that I naturally fly ahead of the airplane much better than when VFR. So that's why I file IFR every XC flight, even when it's CAVU.
 
I used to fly a lot at night VFR but I was in the rather congested northeast where there's lots of ground illumination (I was based at IAD).

I can tell you it's another story down south. Coming out of RIC I turned west towards home and it was DARK. Frankly, while I can fly on instruments, I decided it was probably useful to get an IFR clearance and the eventual approach into the home airport.
 
Kind of depends on the situation for me. If it's a long leg straight down an airway then I'll normally go IFR. If it's a case of a protracted IFR routing vs. a direct shot and weather is not an issue then I'll go VFR.

But I always go FF at night if I go VFR, even if I wouldn't have done otherwise during the daytime. I want to already be talking to someone that knows where I am if something goes South.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top