X-wind method: crab to a kick out, or slip?

[FastEddieB]

Greg,

I understood your point.

 

[oilburner]

http://flightclub.jalopnik.com/watch-these-seat-soiling-crosswind-operations-from-birm-1541878105

Watch how the Big Iron does crosswinds at Birmingham

 

[Timmer]

http://flightclub.jalopnik.com/watch-these-seat-soiling-crosswind-operations-from-birm-1541878105

Watch how the Big Iron does crosswinds at Birmingham

I love these videos -- also shows why I like the wing-down method if available

 

[txflyer]

You kept your speed up......above the white arc?

I wasn't really watching airspeed as much as 'feeling' the plane. If I had to guess, I'd say I touched at about 70m.p.h. Full rudder deflection and a lot of aileron.

I flew it on more than landed. The twilight zone is when the speed drops enough for the tail to start coming down.

That's where the downwind brake and the praying comes in.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

We all realize that they are aerodynamically identical, right?

No they don't realize it and from the sounds of it, very few have done one.

 

[FastEddieB]

No they don't realize it and from the sounds of it, very few have done one.

Well, for the benefit of the unwashed masses...

...they are identical - wing goes down, opposite rudder stops the turn*.

The only difference is in relation to the desired ground path.

For side slips, I would have students line up with a S FL canal on a crosswindy day. Fly along in a crab, then a slip, then back to a crab repeatedly. Done as a ground reference maneuver, at about 1,000', it's quite effective.

For a forward slip, go to altitude, line up with a canal, power off, then apply full rudder one way or another, using enough opposite aileron so as not to turn. Then "steer" the plane left or right with just aileron to stay over the canal. And come down like a freight elevator!

Worked into a few lessons, the student should get it and they should lose any drama.


*Of course, you can slip while turning, but not sure that needs to be covered in primary training as an intentional act.

 

[poadeleted20]

That wasn't my point. My point was the comment that we ALL knew that. That isn't what I am sure of because I am sure some people think there is a difference.

Point taken. Thank you.

 

[j1b3h0]

I'm most definitely a crab 'til round out guy...but, when it's really blowing dogs off chains, I have found a sort of combination to be helpful -- mostly crabbed, partly slipped, until the actual flare. Has worked for me in 30kt direct crosswind in a Citabria.
I do take issue with a couple of suggestions on this thread: I would advise against landing/taking off diagonally. If the wind is blowing so hard you're unable to track the centerline during the take off or landing roll, you're probably exceeding the airplane's (or your) limitations. To put it more bluntly, if a pilot is unable to straddle the centerline with the main tires, then maybe wait for the wind to die down. Or, get some dual. The centerline is the most vivid way to see if you're tracking straight down the runway - particularly a wide, featureless runway. Imagine someone unable to stay in their freeway lane...makes me nervous for the same reason.
Secondly, for those who might choose to land on the upwind side of a crosswind runway, I pose this question: Which way is the airplane likely to dart after touchdown? Answer, into the wind-- in other words, into the weeds, on the upwind side of the runway. So, if you choose the folly of 'using the whole runway', land on the DOWNWIND side, so when the aircraft weather vanes, it will be toward the centerline...not that there's anything wrong with that...

 

[FastEddieB]

No need to convince every pilot that my way is the right way, but...

...cutting down on the crosswind component by landing at an angle has worked very well for me over the years.

Arrived at Moriarty, NM, in my Sky Arrow with quite a howling NW wind.

Landed like this:

Mentioned it to a glider pilot, who said if the wind was really strong they'd pretty much just land angled towards the ramp:

(BTW, you can see the N/S runway under construction, which should help ameliorate the problem.)

Taking off from Sedona I similarly ate away at the crosswind component by angling across the runway.

Bear in mind I'm talking small planes here, up to maybe Aztec-sized. I don't know if bigger planes and jets can get any benefit at all to make it worthwhile.

BTW, my Sky Arrow can touch down at right about the stall speed of 39k. Figure in a strong wind, and it feels like walking speed at touchdown and takes maybe a couple hundred feet or even less. So using the runway in a flexible manner is a real help.

But That's Just Me™ - everyone else can do it however they like.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

No need to convince every pilot that my way is the right way, but...

...cutting down on the crosswind component by landing at an angle has worked very well for me over the years.

Arrived at Moriarty, NM, in my Sky Arrow with quite a howling NW wind.

Landed like this:

Mentioned it to a glider pilot, who said if the wind was really strong they'd pretty much just land angled towards the ramp:

(BTW, you can see the N/S runway under construction, which should help ameliorate the problem.)

Taking off from Sedona I similarly ate away at the crosswind component by angling across the runway.

Bear in mind I'm talking small planes here, up to maybe Aztec-sized. I don't know if bigger planes and jets can get any benefit at all to make it worthwhile.

BTW, my Sky Arrow can touch down at right about the stall speed of 39k. Figure in a strong wind, and it feels like walking speed at touchdown and takes maybe a couple hundred feet or even less. So using the runway in a flexible manner is a real help.

But That's Just Me™ - everyone else can do it however they like.

Include me on that.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

No need to convince every pilot that my way is the right way, but...

...cutting down on the crosswind component by landing at an angle has worked very well for me over the years.

Arrived at Moriarty, NM, in my Sky Arrow with quite a howling NW wind.

One size does not fit all. You wouldn't want to try that in a Boeing 777.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Conversely, if you watch some of the hairy cross wind landings in commercial airliners, you would not even be flying that day,min a small plane, if you were sane.

 

[whifferdill]

One size does not fit all. You wouldn't want to try that in a Boeing 777.

Or a Pitts.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Checkout the canadian airliner,a few years ago, lost power, pilot with lots of glider time landed it safely at a smaller airport. Approach included a slip.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Checkout the canadian airliner,a few years ago, lost power, pilot with lots of glider time landed it safely at a smaller airport. Approach included a slip.

Gimli Glider.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

 

[Geewiz]

Depends on the airplane.

...and depends on the pilot.

 

[Silvaire]

This crab/kick, forward/side stuff has been hashed out so many times on every pilot forum I've ever been on it's almost nauseating. But I feel compelled to toss in my two cents regardless.

As for the poll, most people are going to pick option #1 because it really doesn't make much sense to start slipping on final if your a quarter or a half mile out unless you need to lose a lot of altitude. I don't care how strong the x-wind is. For one thing, the x-wind at 700 feet a quarter mile from the airport is most likely not going to be the same as the x-wind at 4 feet over the numbers so you can toss that whole gauging theory out the window.

The second point I'd like to bring up is this myth that your airspeed indication is going to go completely haywire when you slip. Most everyone has a GPS these days so go on up there and look at the correlation between your indicated airspeed and your GPS ground speed then start stepping on the rudder and entering a slip while watching them to see how much of a deviation you get. It's going to be a lot less than you think.

I love flying as much as the next guy and I like talking about it but we as a group seem to have a compulsion to seriously over analyze this little hobby of ours. If you really want to get better at x-wind landings the answer is more flying and less talking about it. :wink2:

 

[peerlesscowboy]

I wasn't really watching airspeed as much as 'feeling' the plane. If I had to guess, I'd say I touched at about 70m.p.h. Full rudder deflection and a lot of aileron.

I flew it on more than landed. The twilight zone is when the speed drops enough for the tail to start coming down.

That's where the downwind brake and the praying comes in.

So, why would you say ".....there was no way it was gonna' work with flaps"? At 70 mph you'd be well within the flap extension range

 

[Jimmy cooper]

This crab/kick, forward/side stuff has been hashed out so many times on every pilot forum I've ever been on it's almost nauseating. But I feel compelled to toss in my two cents regardless.

As for the poll, most people are going to pick option #1 because it really doesn't make much sense to start slipping on final if your a quarter or a half mile out unless you need to lose a lot of altitude. I don't care how strong the x-wind is. For one thing, the x-wind at 700 feet a quarter mile from the airport is most likely not going to be the same as the x-wind at 4 feet over the numbers so you can toss that whole gauging theory out the window.

The second point I'd like to bring up is this myth that your airspeed indication is going to go completely haywire when you slip. Most everyone has a GPS these days so go on up there and look at the correlation between your indicated airspeed and your GPS ground speed then start stepping on the rudder and entering a slip while watching them to see how much of a deviation you get. It's going to be a lot less than you think.

I love flying as much as the next guy and I like talking about it but we as a group seem to have a compulsion to seriously over analyze this little hobby of ours. If you really want to get better at x-wind landings the answer is more flying and less talking about it. :wink2:

It's apparent from the posts, very few have little or no idea of how to slip an aircraft to the runway. Way too much verbiage. It's not difficult once one does it 20 or thirty times. Have at it!

 

[FastEddieB]

Deleted post to the wrong thread.

 

[tmyers]

So if very few of us have little or no idea does that mean that the most of us do have do have an idea of what it takes to slip an aircraft to a successfully xwind landing. Confusing way to word things.

 

[txflyer]

So, why would you say ".....there was no way it was gonna' work with flaps"? At 70 mph you'd be well within the flap extension range

Why would you want flaps out in a strong X-wind when you're landing that fast? It's counter productive. You'd have to carry more power.

Just because you're in flap extension range, it doesn't mean it's mandatory to use them .... I almost want to ask if you have ever landed a plane with no flaps? ..... I do it all the time. Some of my best landings are wheelie's with no flaps on a long paved runway.

My POH recommends no flaps on the skywagon in a x-wind.

 

[peerlesscowboy]

.........................
My POH recommends no flaps on the skywagon in a x-wind.

Could you please post verbatim the paragraph in your skywagon POH that "....recommends no flaps.....in a x-wind"? I suspect there's a caution against slipping with full (40*) flaps, same as the book for my 170B and you're reading more into the caution than is there.

 

[txflyer]

Could you please post verbatim the paragraph in your skywagon POH that "....recommends no flaps.....in a x-wind"? I suspect there's a caution against slipping with full (40*) flaps, same as the book for my 170B and you're reading more into the caution than is there.

If you want to go to the trouble of finding one and then posting a counter point verbatim what it says, have at it. I know what mine says.

I can say this.

In Hereford Texas, when you're landing my skywagon on runway 20, and the wind is blowing ~30 m.p.h. from ~280 degrees, I can't land my plane with flaps. I tried it, and got blown into the next county.... had to go around ... try again ... and again ... only no flaps, keep the speed up, keep the wing down, and fly it on worked for me.

 

[RotorAndWing]

If you want to go to the trouble of finding one and then posting a counter point verbatim what it says, have at it. I know what mine says.

I can say this.

In Hereford Texas, when you're landing my skywagon on runway 20, and the wind is blowing ~30 m.p.h. from ~280 degrees, I can't land my plane with flaps. I tried it, and got blown into the next county.... had to go around ... try again ... and again ... only no flaps, keep the speed up, keep the wing down, and fly it on worked for me.

I pulled up a Cessna 180K POH and also a C185F POH and looked at it, no statement about anywhere about recommending a flaps up landing for crosswinds.

Which model Skywagon do you have?

 

[txflyer]

I pulled up a Cessna 180K POH and also a C185F POH and looked at it, no statement about anywhere about recommending a flaps up landing for crosswinds.

Which model Skywagon do you have?

C-180G.

Next time I'm out at the field, I'll get it and take a look. Maybe I am confusing the 40 degree rule, but I know on my laminated check list, it clearly states no flaps on x-wind.

Maybe the owner before me put that in the checklist?