X/C training question

Jeanie

Jeanie

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Jeanie
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There is a man out this way who is considering getting a new plane w/ a G1000 to take his PP-ASEL training in. Possibly a Cessna 206. From some of what I've read in other posts it's important to limit a new pilot to using pilotage and VORs before they "rely" on the GPS. Is that possible w/ a G1000? Can you turn off the nav portion of it and have only the part that's equivalent to the steam gauges up and running?

Just curious.
 
Jeanie said:
There is a man out this way who is considering getting a new plane w/ a G1000 to take his PP-ASEL training in. Possibly a Cessna 206. From some of what I've read in other posts it's important to limit a new pilot to using pilotage and VORs before they "rely" on the GPS. Is that possible w/ a G1000? Can you turn off the nav portion of it and have only the part that's equivalent to the steam gauges up and running?

Just curious.
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I don't know about the G1000 part, but I just can't see where buying a new 206 before getting a ticket is anywhere near a good idea.


Trapper John
 
Trapper John said:
I don't know about the G1000 part, but I just can't see where buying a new 206 before getting a ticket is anywhere near a good idea.


Trapper John
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Well, it isn't that much different than a new 182. Just a matter of scale. I don't think the speeds are all that much different and really the only system that is different than, say, a 172 is the constant speed prop.
 
Jeanie said:
There is a man out this way who is considering getting a new plane w/ a G1000 to take his PP-ASEL training in. Possibly a Cessna 206. From some of what I've read in other posts it's important to limit a new pilot to using pilotage and VORs before they "rely" on the GPS. Is that possible w/ a G1000? Can you turn off the nav portion of it and have only the part that's equivalent to the steam gauges up and running?

Just curious.
Click to expand...
I am not all that familiar with the G1000 but at the very least could you not tape a piece of cardboard over the nav/map display?
 
Sounds like learning to ride on a liter sportbike. Bad idea that could bite hard. If the guy has the cash for a new 206 he should have enough to get a trainer for starters.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Well, it isn't that much different than a new 182. Just a matter of scale. I don't think the speeds are all that much different and really the only system that is different than, say, a 172 is the constant speed prop.
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And cowl flaps and rudder trim I'd think...

While I suppose you can do primary training in just about anything, what happens if the guy can't get his medical, can't get the hang of flying or just plain ends up not liking it? I think he'd be out a pretty good chunk trying to resell, especially in this environment.


Trapper John
 
Cardboard. Good idea, Scott. Well, the guy hasn't gotten past the what if conversation yet. So, at this point it's hypothetical. But, it's definately a good idea to ponder the various aspects of the choices before any get made. There is another fella out this way who is a friend of his - They may buy a 172 and then move up to whatever they decide they need next. Obviously a more prudent choice.
 
Trapper John said:
And cowl flaps and rudder trim I'd think...
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And those are hard to operate? In the grand scheme of things, that isn't a big deal

While I suppose you can do primary training in just about anything, what happens if the guy can't get his medical, can't get the hang of flying or just plain ends up not liking it? I think he'd be out a pretty good chunk trying to resell, especially in this environment.


Trapper John
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That may or may not be true, but that is not your judgment to make.
 
Trapper John said:
I don't know about the G1000 part, but I just can't see where buying a new 206 before getting a ticket is anywhere near a good idea.


Trapper John
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If you gots the cash...

FWIW - my dad learned to fly in a Navion.
Retract
Constant speed prop
etc.

Did OK until he had to transition to a Cessna 120.
 
Then there is the notion that training in the plane you want to fly may take longer but then when you are finished you are set up to go and do what you wanted to go and do. A woman just passed her PP checkride in a Cherokee 6 here the other day. Took her longer as it's a lot of plane and she is 57 yrs. old but she was determined and made good. Her son was her instructor - boy I wouldn't want a family member to be my teacher :-)
 
Looks like to me if Cirrus can sell the idea of buying and training in one of their hot rods, a 206 wouldn't be all that bad.
 
somorris said:
Looks like to me if Cirrus can sell the idea of buying and training in one of their hot rods, a 206 wouldn't be all that bad.
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Agree.

Primary training could happen effectively in a faster more powerful plane. But it may take longer to master some parts of basic stick and rudder skills and to learn to stay well within the envelope.
 
Jeanie said:
There is a man out this way who is considering getting a new plane w/ a G1000 to take his PP-ASEL training in. Possibly a Cessna 206. From some of what I've read in other posts it's important to limit a new pilot to using pilotage and VORs before they "rely" on the GPS. Is that possible w/ a G1000? Can you turn off the nav portion of it and have only the part that's equivalent to the steam gauges up and running?

Just curious.
Click to expand...

It's quite easy to limit the moving map on the G1000 and there are a number of ways to do it. You can push the reversionary mode button and the system will display a PFD (primary flight display) on both sides. You can also just select a different screen on the MFD (multi function display) like the GPS info page.

I got my instrument rating in a G1000 equipped aircraft and my instructor took away the MFD moving map in such a fashion and had me fly off the green needles (VOR and ILS) exclusively for all of my initial training. The G1000 is very versatile in that regard. Partial panel is a bit more challenging, but that can be done also.
 
somorris said:
Looks like to me if Cirrus can sell the idea of buying and training in one of their hot rods, a 206 wouldn't be all that bad.
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I know people who got their ticket in a Bonanza. The military routinely teaches people how to fly in high performance aircraft. It may take a little longer, but if you already own such an aircraft, why not? You're going to have to learn to fly it at some point anyway and the time spent unlearning how to fly a 172 is going to pretty much equalize the extra time spent learning in such an aircraft.
 
smigaldi said:
Agree.

Primary training could happen effectively in a faster more powerful plane. But it may take longer to master some parts of basic stick and rudder skills and to learn to stay well within the envelope.
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Military pilots are trained in high performance airplanes and seem to have good stick and rudder skills with what would be considered low hours.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
And those are hard to operate?
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Nope, and I didn't say they were, did I? :dunno:

IIRC, the 206 is normal category only and not approved for spins, so that's another reason, in my opinion, why it wouldn't make such a great trainer.

That may or may not be true, but that is not your judgment to make.
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Opinion, not judgement, 'kay?


Trapper John
 
Trapper John said:
I don't know about the G1000 part, but I just can't see where buying a new 206 before getting a ticket is anywhere near a good idea.


Trapper John
Click to expand...

Totally agree. I am seeing more and more pilots buying an SR22 to train for their PP, and I just kind of look with a dumb founded look. It's kind of like going to college away from your hometown and not living in a dorm for the first year. Of course there is more comfort in an off campus apartment, but you lose something by not staying on campus the first year. I think a pilot who learns on a C152 with nothing but a VOR and maybe an ADF will become a better pilot when he upgrades to something more complicated like a cirrus than one who just buys one and learns in it. Just my .02.
 
Trapper John said:
Opinion, not judgement, 'kay?
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Okay.

My point is, if the guy wants to buy a 206 and learn to fly in it, it is his business. And in the grand scheme of things, there are a lot of airplanes that are WORSE to learn to fly in.
 
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Flyparrothead said:
Totally agree. I am seeing more and more pilots buying an SR22 to train for their PP, and I just kind of look with a dumb founded look. It's kind of like going to college away from your hometown and not living in a dorm for the first year. Of course there is more comfort in an off campus apartment, but you lose something by not staying on campus the first year. I think a pilot who learns on a C152 with nothing but a VOR and maybe an ADF will become a better pilot when he upgrades to something more complicated like a cirrus than one who just buys one and learns in it. Just my .02.
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I kinda have the opposite take on it. If someone learns to fly in a 152 and then hops in a SR22 with little or no additional instruction, they are probably worse off.
 
Totally agree. I am seeing more and more pilots buying an SR22 to train for their PP, and I just kind of look with a dumb founded look. It's kind of like going to college away from your hometown and not living in a dorm for the first year. Of course there is more comfort in an off campus apartment, but you lose something by not staying on campus the first year. I think a pilot who learns on a C152 with nothing but a VOR and maybe an ADF will become a better pilot when he upgrades to something more complicated like a cirrus than one who just buys one and learns in it. Just my .02.
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For sure, you learn a entirely different set of skills. But, military pilots are normally highly reverred, and a lot of them learn to fly in pretty sophisticated equipment. That being said, learning to fly in a C150/152 is (I think) more fun and it is sure easier to stay closer to the airport. I'm with Greg, to each his own.
 
MikePapa said:
I kinda have the opposite take on it. If someone learns to fly in a 152 and then hops in a SR22 with little or no additional instruction, they are probably worse off.
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I know the cirrus transition we have is at least 10 hours, and the training material is great. Someone who has the basic fundamentals down in a basic trainer will understand the transition material better. You have to learn to crawl before you can walk....
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Military pilots are trained in high performance airplanes and seem to have good stick and rudder skills with what would be considered low hours.
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Military pilots must meet rigid educational, aptitude, and physical qualifications, then go through an extremely stringent selection process, and finally get a couple of thousand hours of ground training along with their 200-250 hours of flight training with a substantial washout rate before earning their wings. Civilian pilot training programs don't do that.
 
Ron Levy said:
Military pilots must meet rigid educational, aptitude, and physical qualifications, then go through an extremely stringent selection process, and finally get a couple of thousand hours of ground training along with their 200-250 hours of flight training with a substantial washout rate before earning their wings. Civilian pilot training programs don't do that.
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Gee, ya think? :rolleyes2: In real world operations 200-250 hours is considered low time. And the military guys that do make it through are not always considered superior aviators after receiving their wings. As a good case in point I've witnessed ex-military guys in the airline wash out of training while a civilian guy breezes through, and visa versa. Aptitude is with the individual and not necessarily the program they go through.

Point being here not everyone starts out in a basic trainer nor is it necessary.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Military pilots must meet rigid educational, aptitude, and physical qualifications, then go through an extremely stringent selection process, and finally get a couple of thousand hours of ground training along with their 200-250 hours of flight training with a substantial washout rate before earning their wings. Civilian pilot training programs don't do that.
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I'm not trying to claim you're wrong, Ron, but I do have a question about that process. Since a T-41 costs a fraction to operate compared to say a T-6, why wouldn't the military start out all pilots in the T-41? (I realize they have done so in the past for a limited group like USAFA cadets)

It seems to me like if the ultimate goal is to teach someone to fly a high performance aircraft, it's best to start them out with a high performance aircraft. If they prove they have no aptitude for it, you're going to find that out early on. Clearly that type of learning process is not for everyone, but some people have no business being in certain types of aircraft regardless of how they start or how much training they have.

Have you ever taught someone to fly in a high performance and/or complex aircraft? If so, what is your assessment of how they did at say the 100 hr mark compared to someone who transitioned to one at a later point.

Sometimes I envy guys who learned to fly in a complex aircraft because folding up and putting down the gear is simply a natural response for them and probably always will be.
 
Im always amazed to hear of people who buy a plane before they begin their lessons. Is this relatively common? I couldnt imagine what a commitment that would be, especially if you havent flown before. I am close to getting my PPL, and am nowhere near considering buying a plane.
 
jasc15 said:
Im always amazed to hear of people who buy a plane before they begin their lessons. Is this relatively common? I couldnt imagine what a commitment that would be, especially if you havent flown before. I am close to getting my PPL, and am nowhere near considering buying a plane.
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My father bought his first plane before he ever took a lesson. Over the years I've seen several people do the same thing and have also seen a couple drop out and sell the plane without completing their training.
 
jasc15 said:
Im always amazed to hear of people who buy a plane before they begin their lessons. Is this relatively common? I couldnt imagine what a commitment that would be, especially if you havent flown before. I am close to getting my PPL, and am nowhere near considering buying a plane.
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I have seen an increase in people (middle aged men) coming out to the airport saying the want to buy the fastest single engine plane and learn to fly. There are now maybe 6 or 7 people out at our airport who are brand new pilots with less than 20 or 30 hours who have brand new a/c. I learned how to fly in a C152 and thought it was a big upgrade when I started flying a cutlass....
 
jasc15 said:
Im always amazed to hear of people who buy a plane before they begin their lessons. Is this relatively common? I couldnt imagine what a commitment that would be, especially if you havent flown before. I am close to getting my PPL, and am nowhere near considering buying a plane.
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It's all relative to how much you make. At $10 mil a year a new 206 is a drop in the bucket. Kinda like me buying a new shirt without trying it on. If I don't like it, shoot, I'm out $20 bucks;)
 
jasc15 said:
Im always amazed to hear of people who buy a plane before they begin their lessons. Is this relatively common? I couldnt imagine what a commitment that would be, especially if you havent flown before. I am close to getting my PPL, and am nowhere near considering buying a plane.
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It's not very common, but it's certainly not unheard of. It's not a bad move really. Traditionally aircraft have held their value extremely well, although the last year or so seems to have broken that premise. So even if you completely lost interest and had to sell the plane after a few months or years, chances are you might even score a profit on the investment.

When you sign up for a school, typically they are leasing the plane which means you're paying both the school and the aircraft owner to fly. The same goes for the instructor as the school typically takes half of what you're paying for instruction.

By owning your own trainer, you are cutting out a lot of the middle men. However it's not always easy to get the own vs rent equation to work out in your favor. It's kind of like getting a girlfriend vs going downtown and renting one. There are other considerations other than just financial.
 
jasc15 said:
Im always amazed to hear of people who buy a plane before they begin their lessons. Is this relatively common? I couldnt imagine what a commitment that would be, especially if you havent flown before. I am close to getting my PPL, and am nowhere near considering buying a plane.
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I know someone who thought he wanted to fly, but knew he wanted a tax deduction. He bought a new 172SP on one of the dealer promotions when the IRS also allowed accelerated depreciation. He put the plane on a lease arrangement with the local FBO. He has his asel certificate but doesn't fly anymore as he doesn't trust his abilities.

His son, however, now has his instrument rating.

People have many motives for buying a plane.

-Skip
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Okay.

My point is, if the guy wants to buy a 206 and learn to fly in it, it is his business. And in the grand scheme of things, there are a lot of airplanes that are WORSE to learn to fly in.
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Like a 195? :D
 
Primary training in glass airplanes is a fact of life - steam airplanes just aren't getting made much anymore. There are all sorts of practices for ensuring that a pilot has the requisite pilotage/DR skills before transitioning to electronic navigation. Arlynn McMahon (2009 National CFI of the Year) has a good book called "Train like you fly" which covers the increasingly popular use of scenario-based training (LOFT for GA) and simulation, from desktops to AATDs like the Redbird. It's a good view of where primary and advanced GA training seems to be headed.
 
I have quite a bit of time in C-206s and I've taught a number of non-pilots how to fly around and land. One of these people decided to go out and really get his private. He would come back from his lessons and tell me how it was hard for him to get the feel of flying and landing a C-172 because it was so light and he was having problems with overcontrolling. So I think it's really all in what you are used to. That's not to say that you should go out an get your private in a King Air, but we're talking about a C-206 here.
 
steingar said:
Sounds like learning to ride on a liter sportbike. Bad idea that could bite hard. If the guy has the cash for a new 206 he should have enough to get a trainer for starters.
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Any of the high wing Cessna singles are nowhere near a liter sportbike. Might be like learning on a VTX1300. If you happen to be a big guy, that's probably not a big deal.

Going out and learning in a literbike would be more akin to buying a Lancair 320 for your primary training. That would be a bad idea. A new 206? Well, I can't say I believe it's a financially sound decision, but people who buy new planes help keep my company in business, which isn't a bad thing. Then again, that's why I fly a 40 year old Piper (and have associated maintenance with a 40 year old plane). That, and I'd have to pay a whole lot more money for a whole lot less plane if I wanted something new. :)

To the original question - learning in a G1000 aircraft isn't necessarily a problem, especially if that's what you're going to fly. You can easily enough get the functions turned off, taped over, whatever that you don't need for initial training. I have zero time in a G1000, but I can't see myself flying one for much for a while, so I'm not too concerned.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
And this has what to do with learning to fly in an advanced aircraft?:dunno:
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You brought it up

Rotor&Wing said:
Military pilots are trained in high performance airplanes and seem to have good stick and rudder skills with what would be considered low hours.
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I am pointing out that the training regime is a lot different than in the civilian world.
 
MikePapa said:
I'm not trying to claim you're wrong, Ron, but I do have a question about that process. Since a T-41 costs a fraction to operate compared to say a T-6, why wouldn't the military start out all pilots in the T-41? (I realize they have done so in the past for a limited group like USAFA cadets)
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Actually, they do, more or less. Each service has some sort of flight screening program in light planes before the candidate even goes to flight school. For example, USNA does theirs at a local flight school, and sets training goals that they must meet or have their pilot training orders cancelled.
 
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