WW II

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Let'sgoflying!

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Dave Taylor
Be sure to check out the part at the end:

"In 1942-43 it was statistically impossible for bomber crews to
complete a 25-mission tour in Europe."
 

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A great generation that gave its all. Most likely never to be seen again.

Each generation gives greatly, just as our sons and daughters in Iraq and Afghanistan are today.

May they all return safely home to their families.
 
I always remind myself of this reality when I juxtapose it against my own military service as an Airman. I don't mean to be gratuitously self-deprecating, but mine is that of an apprentice middle manager, in comparison. I suppose I should be grateful for that. It is still anti-climatic for me in light of such ultimate sacrifice displayed half a century ago. There was a sense of mission back then as well that cannot be compared to the skirmishes and contractor-laden locales of today. Baskin Robins is what comes to my mind when someone asks me to describe my experience in the military. I digress. Those dudes had brass ones, particularly in light of the inner understanding they were as good as dead every time they stepped into that plane.
 
It's statistically impossible for a wikipedia author writer to under statistics. Is a wikipedia article supposed to mean more if it's changed from HTML to PDF? With 1000 airplanes and an 84% chance of survival, you can expect a dozen or so to make it (barring other non-flight things that might derail a single plane/crew from going the distance).
 
The Memphis Belle was the first to complete 25 missions. It was a big morale booster.
 
The more I read about WWII, especially the air war, the more I want to read. I just finished "Half a wing, three engines, and a prayer," which was about B-17s over Europe and some of the heavy bomber attacks on Germany. While not engaging as a story (it is written more as a documentary), it is fascinating to read just the sheer scale on which things were performed, with the many challenges and failures that went along with the successes.

It's a period that in some ways I wish I could have witnessed, but in many ways am glad I wasn't subjected to witnessing.
 
Kiloalphadriver said:
The Memphis Belle was the first to complete 25 missions. It was a big morale booster.
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I was lucky enough to meet Bob Morgan (Pilot of the Memphis Belle) back in '04-ish, and he and his wife, Linda, were kind enough to donate several pieces of artwork to/for our Memphis Belle Room. (Pix here: http://ameliaslanding.com/memphis_belle_room.htm)

What he and his men accomplished was nothing short of amazing. As were some of the parties during their stateside homecoming tour. :D
 
Ted DuPuis said:
It's a period that in some ways I wish I could have witnessed, but in many ways am glad I wasn't subjected to witnessing.
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I feel the same way. I have read a lot about WWII and the bombers.. my grandpa was rated as a B24 captain, navigator and bombardier
 
It still amazes me how the US transformed nearly all of it's industrial might to producing war machines around the clock. While initially the outcome of the war was very much in doubt, once the ships and planes and tanks started streaming out of the factories, it simply became a numbers game.

After initial defeats and missteps, the US commanders were quick learners. The most amazing thing to me, though, were the plans to invade and occupy Japan. Had it not been for the atomic bomb, we were ready to implement the most massive invasion plan ever devised (Operation Downfall). The main naval force consisted of 42 aircraft carriers and 25 battleships! After such a bloody campaign, the US was not about to stop short of anything other than complete victory.
 
Jack Spectre said:
It still amazes me how the US transformed nearly all of it's industrial might to producing war machines around the clock. While initially the outcome of the war was very much in doubt, once the ships and planes and tanks started streaming out of the factories, it simply became a numbers game.

After initial defeats and missteps, the US commanders were quick learners. The most amazing thing to me, though, were the plans to invade and occupy Japan. Had it not been for the atomic bomb, we were ready to implement the most massive invasion plan ever devised (Operation Downfall). The main naval force consisted of 42 aircraft carriers and 25 battleships! After such a bloody campaign, the US was not about to stop short of anything other than complete victory.
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Thank God we did not have to do that. The loss of life on both sides would have been astronomical. Because we did what we did, Japan was able to rebuild with our help.
 
I'm currently listening to the audio book "Unbroken" about Louis Zamperini. I'm about half way through it and it's one good story. I will probably finish it up on my 16 hour drive back to Iowa from Alabama.
 
Anthony said:
Thank God we did not have to do that. The loss of life on both sides would have been astronomical. Because we did what we did, Japan was able to rebuild with our help.
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My dad landed in Normandy on D+1 and was involved in the Battle of the Bulge. He was parked in Europe after VE Day and was about to receive a commission and ship out to the Pacific when VJ Day occured. He was frighted by that prospect, and so happy to not receive that commission.
 
There is an observation that many now never realize. the WW2 vets all had a common cause, "save the world"

Every one after that did it because of the draft or their own reasons.
 
I am lucky to get to fly my friends PT19. Everytime I get in that plane I wonder how many men that trained in that plane did not make it home.
 
airbornejohnny said:
and that was almost 2 years into the war...
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The 25 Memphis Belle missions ran from November of 1942 to May of 1943.
The original statement in the thread is therefore demonstrably false and again the even if no plane ever did fly 25 missions, it wasn't "statistically impossible" in any event. The statement is inaccurate hyperbole.
 
A WWII hero:Floyd R. Blair US Army Air Corp,Pearl Harbor,Battle of Midway,andSouthPacific Theater.
I'm hoping to find some help researching about Floyd.He was the father of the kids across the street from me growing up.I'm hoping to share what information I could learn about the circumstances concerning Floyd's decorations with his son,Mike,himself a 23 year Air Force and Iraqi Freedom veteran.
Mike has told me records concerning Floyd's service were destroyed by a fire at the VA records center in St. Louis in 1973,that he was awarded the Silver Star twice for sinking a Japanese destroyer in the Pacific Theater.I see in his photograph that he also earned the Distinguished Flying Cross.
www.homeofheroes.com has these listings:
Blair,Floyd R.HQ,VII Bomber Command,G.O.No.62(1942)
Blair Floyd R. HQ,US Army Forces in the South Pacific Area,G.O.No4(1943)
From my childhood memory,I remember Floyd having severe burn scarring due to an onboard fire or crash landing.
I'd like to honor Floyd's service and memory if I could. If you know how to dig up this kind of info ,I could use the help.I think he was my earliest inspiration to fly.
 

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flyingron said:
The 25 Memphis Belle missions ran from November of 1942 to May of 1943.
The original statement in the thread is therefore demonstrably false and again the even if no plane ever did fly 25 missions, it wasn't "statistically impossible" in any event. The statement is inaccurate hyperbole.
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I thought we declared war shortly after Pearl Harbor...in 1941. So it was one and a half years into the war, sorry. In the very least, the statistics were stacked against completing a full tour. And Memphis Belle was certainly not the first B-17 in combat at the outset of the war.
 
airbornejohnny said:
I thought we declared war shortly after Pearl Harbor...in 1941. So it was one and a half years into the war, sorry. In the very least, the statistics were stacked against completing a full tour. And Memphis Belle was certainly not the first B-17 in combat at the outset of the war.
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First bombing mission for the 8th Air Force in Britain was in late August, 1942, and the Belle and its crew didn't arrive for another month and didn't start flying missions until November. Looking at the 8th's history, they were flying ~5 missions a month, in the early days. So it would have taken up to five months for a crew to achieve 25 missions, if they were scheduled on *every* mission, which didn't usually happen.

The crew completed 29 missions by mid-May '43, about six months after they started flying combat. During that time, the 8th Air Force had lost 151 aircraft out of 4,323 sorties. Basically, that's a 1 in 28 chance; almost exactly the same number of sorties flown by the Belle's crew.

As Bill Mauldin so aptly put it: "I feels like a fugitive from the law of averages."

(Statistics from an Excel spreadsheet of 8th Air Force missions located at:

http://www.taphilo.com/history/8thaf/8aflosses.shtml

Ron Wanttaja
 
Some times when in the company of other vets, Army or Marine guys will give me flak about Air Force "non combatants". True for me maybe - I was aircraft maintenance (a REMF). But I remind them that the 8th AF lost over 26 thousand guys in 1943 alone, which was more than the total number of Marines lost in the whole Pacific campaign, and that because of those brave men and many like them, I won't apologize for the Air Force to any [expletive] one.
 
Lt. James Baynham flew 11 missions as the youngest B-24 captain in WW-II. At 19, he had 150 hours total time and was flying combat missions over Germany. His plane was shot down in the Kassel raid after the lead element and the fighters made a wrong turn and the ME-109's shot down most of the remaining formation. He spent the remainder of the war as a POW and still won't eat cabbage.

Jim and I still play golf frequently and he went to Palm Springs with me last year, played 18 holes every day except for the day we played 36. He didn't go this year since he and his new lady friend are planning to spend a few weeks in Italy.

When we went for breakfast in my Cessna 180 last year, he said it was the first time he had been in a light airplane in 65 years, but the smells are exactly the same as he remembered from back then.
Ted DuPuis said:
The more I read about WWII, especially the air war, the more I want to read. I just finished "Half a wing, three engines, and a prayer," which was about B-17s over Europe and some of the heavy bomber attacks on Germany. While not engaging as a story (it is written more as a documentary), it is fascinating to read just the sheer scale on which things were performed, with the many challenges and failures that went along with the successes.

It's a period that in some ways I wish I could have witnessed, but in many ways am glad I wasn't subjected to witnessing.
Click to expand...
 
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JohnAJohnson said:
Some times when in the company of other vets, Army or Marine guys will give me flak about Air Force "non combatants". True for me maybe - I was aircraft maintenance (a REMF). But I remind them that the 8th AF lost over 26 thousand guys in 1943 alone, which was more than the total number of Marines lost in the whole Pacific campaign, and that because of those brave men and many like them, I won't apologize for the Air Force to any [expletive] one.
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If it was not for your generation, mine might have different allegiances, and for that I thank you and all your brethren. One of my uncles was a Navy Seabee, another was a Marine, aviation support. Both served in the Pacific, and neither job is as well-known in main stream history, however without the support structure, airplane do not fly, soldiers and marines do not make beach landings, and ships do not sail.
For what it is worth, before, during, and after deployment to Iraq, members of my unit 3/325 A.I.R. 82 Airborne, would "compare" our experiences to those of the men who came before us, and we have always been (and I for one always will be) awestruck by the odds faced and overcome by you and your brethren. The only gripe is the size boot we are left to fill.
Thank you again sir, and next time, tell the SOB giving you flak they can go to hell.
 
My grandfather was flying Russian bombers during WW2. He was part of the campaign that dropped bombs on Berlin. I still have to get his medal collection out of Ukraine. He passed away from cancer in 1990, when I was 10, so unfortunately I did not get a chance to ask him a lot about it. Not quite sure how many missions he flew.
 
wanttaja said:
First bombing mission for the 8th Air Force in Britain was in late August, 1942, and the Belle and its crew didn't arrive for another month and didn't start flying missions until November.
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VE Day was May 8th, 1945. So the air war in Europe for the United States was about two and a half years. Interesting. I thought it was longer for some reason. Still a long time for bomber crews to be shot at.
 
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