Wow! 600nm radius GPS testing impact! April 1, 2, 4th

TangoWhiskey

TangoWhiskey

Touchdown! Greaser!
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This thing is happening in NM, and will affect ops here in D/FW and beyond! :yikes:

FLIGHT ADVISORY
GPS Testing
WSMR GPS 12-01B
April 01-02, 2012 and April 04, 2012
Alamogordo, NM

Southwestern U.S. - centered in New Mexico
Up to 600 NMR from center point - Potential GPS interference from 50FT AGL to above FL400

To access the printed advisory and accompanying map depiction, please utilize the below link by copying and pasting into your browser’s address bar.

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2012/Mar/WSMR_12-01B_GPS_Flight_Advisory.pdf

*Depicted data may not be a complete listing. Pilots should not use the information on this website for flight planning purposes. For the latest information, call your local Flight Service Station at 1-800-WX-BRIEF.
 
sooner or later one of these "tests" are going to catch a unsuspecting person offguard and the results ain't gonna be pretty..:no::no:..

Surely it can't be more Lightsquared testing :dunno::dunno::nono:
 
"Ummmm.... Troy??"

"Yes Mike?"

"We're supposed to be going to Abilene, right?"

"Yes. Why do you ask?"

"The magenta line...? It's taking us to Austin..."
 
That's, um, a big circle. All of New Mexico, Colorado and Arizona. Most of Texas, Kansas, Utah and Oklahoma. All the way to Nebraska, Wyoming and Nevada.

Granted that it's a volume thing from the origin point however dang, that's a huge area and still 400+ miles at 10,000 ft which is most of the SW. That's great motivation to go 100% GPS navigation only isn't it? At least a VOR or NDB is a relatively local event.

I know someone who writes songs. Maybe I'll ask her to do one for us, something like Give me back my VOR and NDB. It could be amusing...and oh so realistic.
 
fgcason said:
That's, um, a big circle. All of New Mexico, Colorado and Arizona. Most of Texas, Kansas, Utah and Oklahoma. All the way to Nebraska, Wyoming and Nevada.

Granted that it's a volume thing from the origin point however dang, that's a huge area and still 400+ miles at 10,000 ft which is most of the SW. That's great motivation to go 100% GPS navigation only isn't it? At least a VOR or NDB is a relatively local event.

I know someone who writes songs. Maybe I'll ask her to do one for us, something like Give me back my VOR and NDB. It could be amusing...and oh so realistic.
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Hell... I would settle to get back Loran C .....:yesnod:
 
I wonder what the affected radius is at ground level and how they intend to inform truckers, hikers, automobile users, and other non-aviation users of GPS of the tests?
 
N801BH said:
Surely it can't be more Lightsquared testing :dunno::dunno::nono:
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It wouldn't surprise me. The map graphic is labeled "Interference Testing", and in the text, this note:

Pilots are strongly encouraged to report anomalies during testing to the appropriate ARTCC to assist in the determination of the extent of GPS degradation during tests.
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If you're flying on those days and notice anything weird about your GPS signal integrity, make sure you report it to ATC / FSS. "Must be okay... nobody complained."
 
Jim Logajan said:
I wonder what the affected radius is at ground level and how they intend to inform truckers, hikers, automobile users, and other non-aviation users of GPS of the tests?
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353NMR at 50' AGL, so I've gotta imagine there's a significant impact at ground level, too.

I'll be watching the RAIM Prediction calculator online to see if it shows any impact. I'm not sure it takes into account things like this, or just looks at satellite geometry, etc.
 
These have been going on for quite a while. I have seen alerts well into last year.
 
N801BH said:
sooner or later one of these "tests" are going to catch a unsuspecting person offguard and the results ain't gonna be pretty..:no::no:..

Surely it can't be more Lightsquared testing :dunno::dunno::nono:
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Could also be military....we do a lot of GPS jammin'. Judging by the center location, I would imagine the military is involved.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Could also be military....we do a lot of GPS jammin'. Judging by the center location, I would imagine the military is involved.
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I agree,, given the location of the center is a big military area.


FLIGHT ADVISORY
GPS Testing
WSMR GPS 12-01B
April 01-02, 2012 and April 04, 2012
Alamogordo, NM

There is a FINE line between Lightsquared stuff and military "testing" too.:yesnod:
 
TangoWhiskey said:
353NMR at 50' AGL, so I've gotta imagine there's a significant impact at ground level, too.

I'll be watching the RAIM Prediction calculator online to see if it shows any impact. I'm not sure it takes into account things like this, or just looks at satellite geometry, etc.
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Well, I'm pretty sure that the RAIM predictor in the GPS can't take it into account!
 
N801BH said:
Hell... I would settle to get back Loran C .....:yesnod:
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Why would you want that antiquated junk? Modern technology is infinitely supreme. All you ever need for navigation is GPS... :lol:

GPS failure (deliberate or otherwise) can be a huge frigging area leaving you blind deaf and dumb. If a single ILS, VOR or NDB goes out of service for any reason and you just hop over to the next one and it's business as usual.

I'm waiting for the day the news report is this:
Today 573 airliners crashed due to getting lost or running into the ground while landing in bad weather due to GPS being disabled for the continental united states. It's general aviations fault because those little airplanes are such a threat. All GA pilots are now being sent to the gas chambers for your safety and all the beer cans you buy for the next month will be made out of those little terrorist weapons that knocked down the world trade center buildings.
 
denverpilot said:
These have been going on for quite a while. I have seen alerts well into last year.
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We get these all the time in NM and I have flown during them without trouble - and I cannot recall hearing of any issue with gps nav when they are supposed to be going on.
Perhaps it is just momentary activity? Anyone else heard anything like; "pilot had nav deviation; did not get notam regarding outage"?
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
We get these all the time in NM and I have flown during them without trouble - and I cannot recall hearing of any issue with gps nav when they are supposed to be going on.
Perhaps it is just momentary activity? Anyone else heard anything like; "pilot had nav deviation; did not get notam regarding outage"?
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I've seen them before--just not with a 600nm radius of affected area!
 
I believe this recurring big one is centered on some regular GPS jamming tests being done down there.

There's also a huge testing facility down there with 200 dB of isolation from inside to outside where the LightSquared tests were done.

I'm not sure which test is triggering the NOTAM. I could ask folks that work at the GPS management group at Raytheon here in Aurora. I'll do that the next time we meet for dinner. They may not be able to say or they may know what it is and have no restrictions. No promises. I'm curious enough to ask though.

It's a cone shape all the way to some very high altitudes over Wyoming, but I've flown in the cone in Colorado and not noticed any effects.
 
fgcason said:
Why would you want that antiquated junk? Modern technology is infinitely supreme. All you ever need for navigation is GPS... :lol:

GPS failure (deliberate or otherwise) can be a huge frigging area leaving you blind deaf and dumb. If a single ILS, VOR or NDB goes out of service for any reason and you just hop over to the next one and it's business as usual.

I'm waiting for the day the news report is this:
Today 573 airliners crashed due to getting lost or running into the ground while landing in bad weather due to GPS being disabled for the continental united states. It's general aviations fault because those little airplanes are such a threat. All GA pilots are now being sent to the gas chambers for your safety and all the beer cans you buy for the next month will be made out of those little terrorist weapons that knocked down the world trade center buildings.
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Just file a flight plan and you shouldn't have any worries.
 
rottydaddy said:
I kinda miss Loran... always worked superbly for me (in nyc area).
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When I lived in Fla I had a King 8001 Loran with the -01 software option.. It was almost as accurate as my current GPS.... I bought it from Tropic Aero Marine in Ft Liquordale..... Nice unit.:yesnod:
 
N801BH said:
When I lived in Fla I had a King 8001 Loran with the -01 software option.. It was almost as accurate as my current GPS.... I bought it from Tropic Aero Marine in Ft Liquordale..... Nice unit.:yesnod:
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There's some good math in the public domain showing the accuracy of each.

And we have to be accurate and say LORAN-C for purposes of this discussion. E-LORAN is showing promise to 8 meters consistently, but isn't deployed.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LORAN

LORAN-C was accurate enough for enroute and barely accurate enough for non-precision approaches.
 
denverpilot said:
There's some good math in the public domain showing the accuracy of each.

And we have to be accurate and say LORAN-C for purposes of this discussion. E-LORAN is showing promise to 8 meters consistently, but isn't deployed.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LORAN

LORAN-C was accurate enough for enroute and barely accurate enough for non-precision approaches.
Click to expand...

Interesting.... my Loran-C would be able to lead me back to my tie down about every time to within 75-100 feet... It would beep just as I turned onto the taxiway and usually about one plane away from where I was tied down... As we all know it didn't have the capabilities to give 3D, or altitude info..... When they sold me the unit they said a stock unit would not have the best resolution , but the 01 software option supposably made it alot more accurate... It has been 25 years so my mind ( might) be slipping a little..:dunno::goofy:
 
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Exactly what made the Lightsquared proposal so insane. GPS is fairly fragile in a localized area. Not so much over hundreds of miles. Add high power transmitters in the band and it doesn't take much to make it unreliable.

Not that LORAN was any better. It was easier to jam actually, due to the much lower frequency.

Lots of our "modern miracle" tech can be taken out with broadband jamming. The tests the group in NM/Southern Colorado and others by a different Defense contractor in the South are probably to quantify the "how easy" question.
 
Have just listened to several flights in the DFW Regional Approach coverage area go missed due to RAIM alerts on RNAV GPS approaches.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Have just listened to several flights in the DFW Regional Approach coverage area go missed due to RAIM alerts on RNAV GPS approaches.
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See my #2 post..... Going missed burns ALOT of fuel and some bean counter will be screaming tomorrow...
 
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