Would you take your children while you operate?

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ian_rand

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Ian
My wife and I have been looking into private pilot licenses for a while. One question keeps coming up: is it safe to take our children on 1hr flights? Would you do it? At what point do you trust yourself enough to do this?

Any first-hand stories welcome.
 
ian_rand said:
My wife and I have been looking into private pilot licenses for a while. One question keeps coming up: is it safe to take our children on 1hr flights? Would you do it? At what point do you trust yourself enough to do this?

Any first-hand stories welcome.
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I took each of my children for a lap around the pattern before the examiner's ink was dry after my checkride.

Set appropriate personal limits for yourselves, particularly around weather and fuel. Remember to be conservative, and understand that what is legal is not necessarily safe.

If you aren't comfortable with your skills, don't take your kids or any other passengers up until you spend enough time solo or with an instructor to work out the kinks.

Are you someone who can trust your own instincts around safety?
 
ian_rand said:
My wife and I have been looking into private pilot licenses for a while. One question keeps coming up: is it safe to take our children on 1hr flights? Would you do it? At what point do you trust yourself enough to do this?

Any first-hand stories welcome.
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Are you asking about taking them during your lessons?
 
Nothing is completely safe. Flying involves risk, as do many other things, and it depends on your risk tolerance.

Facts could help you decide. Fatality rates per 100,00 miles for small planes are between those of motorcycles than automobiles, and closer to the motorcycle than the car. If your risk tolerance is such that you would be comfortable traveling with your child on the back of a motorcycle, then you'd say that flying them in a small plane is safe. OTOH, if you worry a great deal about their safety in a car then you'd say the small plane is not safe. That's what I mean when I say 'risk tolerance.'
 
There is this organization called 'pilots n paws' and another 'cloud nine' for bad pilots who should not be trusted with any human life and are limited to carrying dogs.

Joking aside I think most pilots are comfortable taking the family along. When I was a kid I spent a lot of time occupying the right seat of a 172.

There is another common misconception that a short flight, say 1 hour, is 'safe' while a long flight is 'risky'. The only difference is that a longer flight requires a little planning.
 
Like El Paso, I took my kids up before the ink was dry and was comfortable about it at the time. It was only a few hundred hours later that it made me nervous to think of a freshly minted PP taking his kids up. Funny enough, I have a couple of friends who have commented about how little they knew back when they were only around 1000 hours....so I guess it's all relative.

But yeah, I'd do it all over again.

side note: my kids and wife just don't enjoy flying...it's nothing to them. Even commercially it's just as a means to get from point A to point B.
 
dell30rb said:
There is another common misconception that a short flight, say 1 hour, is 'safe' while a long flight is 'risky'. The only difference is that a longer flight requires a little planning.
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Since when is 1 hour "long"???

My kids think 4 hour legs are "short". The long flights were the 12 hour Mooney slogs from El Paso to New York. :D

Seriously, though, it's all in perspective.
 
If you are still in training, I would advise against it. Human parents are wired such that attention FIRST goes to the kid....I think you get where I'm going with this....
 
I would agree with Dr. Bruce on that but I have to ask the question: If after you get your license you feel it might not be safe to fly your kids, then why would YOU go up there?

I would have no reservations.
 
ian_rand said:
My wife and I have been looking into private pilot licenses for a while. One question keeps coming up: is it safe to take our children on 1hr flights? Would you do it? At what point do you trust yourself enough to do this?

Any first-hand stories welcome.
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In general? Sure, for your training flights I wouldn't recommend it.
 
There is a big difference between normal flying and learning to fly.

There should probably be no reason that your children could not go with you (except adverse medical circumstances) during normal flight operations - particularly cross country. "Boring holes" activity might lead to post-flight cockpit cleanup activities and children who suddenly want no part of you afterwards.

Training, on the other hand, even dismissing the part about parental protection priorities, will subject the children to motions and activities that some might consider child abuse (as in forms of torture.) {{other posts indicate that the OP is very early in investigating what flying entails. The learning process is not a sedate activity as in learning to drive cars}}
 
ian_rand said:
My wife and I have been looking into private pilot licenses for a while. One question keeps coming up: is it safe to take our children on 1hr flights? Would you do it? At what point do you trust yourself enough to do this?

Any first-hand stories welcome.
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I fly Young Eagles (kids 8-17) and many times the younger sibling comes along in the back seat.

And in agreement with another poster here - what's the difference between 1 hour and X hour flights? The attention span of the child and the tolerance level the child has for being in a small conveyance where it's not trivial to stop and get out.
 
Small children especially I don't see the difference between 10 minute flights and full tank range flights since they sleep pretty much the whole time the plane is in the air.
 
Let the child fly from the right seat so they have something to do.

Pay them for every airplane they spot before you do.

How old are they?

If it's safe for you, it's safe for the kids.
 
We took our 6-week old son up for his first flight yesterday. Handled it great.

But I would not have taken him up solo. Wife spent her time focusing on him, I focused on flying. That's how it needs to be. I wouldn't consider taking him flying by myself for at least a couple years. He'll need to be big enough and well-trained enough that he knows how to sit in the plane and behave. Can't have him flipping off the avionics master on takeoff into IMC.
 
I took my wife and 4yr old daughter up about a week after my checkride. We had no problems at all. A little snack and a toy or two. She was good to go. My daughter is now 5 and does very well in the plane. The longest I've had her up there is about an hour and she fell asleep about 25 minutes in. I had to move her mic because she was snoring into it. Should've seen me trying to figure out what the noise was before my wife noticed it. Very funny.

I will say that I was more nervous taking my family up for the first time than I was taking the checkride...and that's saying something.

I'm looking forward to taking her up and letting her sit right seat. I think that will keep her attention more. She keeps asking when she can fly the plane.

One suggestion would be to make the first trips short and comfortable. Around the pattern on a smooth day to see how they react. We went to a neighboring airport (15 min flight) the first couple trips to see how it went. And if the kid can't sit still on the ground or in the car, you may want to wait a bit. I have a 3 yr old nephew that wants to go, but I'm just not sure about him yet. A little hyper for my tastes, even with his Dad around. Probably going to wait a bit before getting him up there.

Good luck with your training! It's a wonderful thing to share with the family.
 
That is not really a question others can answer for you. You are the only one that can give yourself that sign off. You will know when it is safe to take kids or anyone else up with you. The length of the flight has little to do with it, you can crash on take off as easy as you can crash on landing. In between is guiding the airplane along on its course, for the most part, that is the safest part of flying.

-John
 
Ted DuPuis said:
We took our 6-week old son up for his first flight yesterday. Handled it great.

But I would not have taken him up solo. Wife spent her time focusing on him, I focused on flying. That's how it needs to be. I wouldn't consider taking him flying by myself for at least a couple years. He'll need to be big enough and well-trained enough that he knows how to sit in the plane and behave. Can't have him flipping off the avionics master on takeoff into IMC.
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A friend of mine took his infant daughter on a week-long trip in a piston-powered plane from Florida to South Africa, just the two of them. 25 years later at her wedding reception they recounted the story and someone asked if she suffered any problems as a result. Her father replied that as she got older she got to be a little high maintenance, but now it wasn't his probem anymore.
 
JHW said:
A friend of mine took his infant daughter on a week-long trip in a piston-powered plane from Florida to South Africa, just the two of them. 25 years later at her wedding reception they recounted the story and someone asked if she suffered any problems as a result. Her father replied that as she got older she got to be a little high maintenance, but now it wasn't his probem anymore.
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To each his own. I doubt if there would be any problems, but I'm more comfortable having someone focusing on the baby while I focus on flying.
 
Ian, I am not sure what your question is. Are you asking is flying with PP safe enough to expose your children to? If that is the question then I think No Heat gave you the best answer. Would you take your child on a trip on a motorcycle?
If you are asking how well children tolerate flying then others gave you good answers also. In general my experience is children take to flying OK. If a child needs supervision on the ground then he will need it in the air.
 
I don't understand the question. Are you saying you think you might be an unsafe pilot?

If you are - get more training.

If you are not - then I don't understand the question.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Let the child fly from the right seat so they have something to do.

Pay them for every airplane they spot before you do.

How old are they?

If it's safe for you, it's safe for the kids.
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Amen, that's what my great uncle did when I was 4, on the same trip he gave me the helm of a seaplane and a boat, plus steering the truck in his lap and I've been f-ed up ever since, but it's been a pretty fun ride.:yesnod::rofl:

Lloyd Geist Sr was a IP in WWII in the P-47, P-51, P-38, and P-39 finishing the war over seas in the P-51 which he kept until 1972 IIRC. I remember sitting in it in the hangar. Lloyd is still alive and kicking in Houma, deaf as a post though. When I started flying and called him to tell him he told me to get the best headset I could buy and always wear them lol.

I took all me nieces and nephews on pipeline days, the 9 year old was natural, could land the PA12 from the back on the 4th one.
 
Both of my kids flew with me a lot when they were young. Both love aerobatics and flying in old airplanes. My son could handle flying in the T-6 and N3N from around 5 years old. He really loved the J3. Although they still like to fly they never wanted to pursue a PPL. I was 10 when my dad started flying and I flew with him and his friends a lot. I went along on a few lessons and remember doing stalls. Got my first P-51 ride from a friend of his when I was 12. Don
 
My airplane and my 1st daughter were delivered on the same day! A very unforgetable day, to say the least. Anyways, two weeks after I got it delivered and after my 10 hour insurance check out, I flew the family from NC to TX because my wife's grandfather passed away. The flight plan was from KFAY-KSAV (to pick up cousin) - to mississippi / alabama to buy halo headsets (small plug, but Phil (the owner, if I remember correctly) meet us at the airport and brought us all out to eat) - then flew to the east side of Houston. Never once was I scared or worried about the plane! It was a great introduction to family flying!

So in the end, do it... it is worth the risk
 
Just be ready for "Are we there yet?" :rofl:

Really, it is pretty much just like driving kids around. I have three, whoever sits right seat is more entertained. The other two treat it pretty much like having to sit in a car for a long trip. I limit my legs to 2 hours or so and that helps. Definitely make sure you have a way to isolate yourself when talking to ATC. And then the usual commonsense stuff like don't put a young kid next to a door that can be opened easily from the inside, make sure they wear their seatbelts, have large zip lock bags available for queasy moments (because of Mom or Dad's decision to fly into some moderate turbulence, better yet don't do that ;)), etc.

It's a lot of fun to share flying with your kids.
 
Plenty of good first-hand experiences and good information. This forum is quickly becoming a favorite. Thanks.

I got my answer and a lot more, but just to answer a few pertinent questions from posters: my children are 7 and 5 and yes, I was asking about taking them (if ever) after I get my license and how much experience to have before taking them even after your license.

It sounds like yes, it can be fun for the whole family and that's great to hear.

Poster NoHeat said something of great interest to me:
NoHeat said:
Fatality rates per 100,00 miles for small planes are [...] closer to the motorcycle than the car
Click to expand...

I was not aware of that. One often hears flying is safer than driving, but I guess that's about commercial flights. Where could one get more info on actual accident rates for small planes? Would you consider flying more similar to a motorcycle ride than a car ride in terms of fatality risk?
 
ian_rand said:
My wife and I have been looking into private pilot licenses for a while. One question keeps coming up: is it safe to take our children on 1hr flights? Would you do it? At what point do you trust yourself enough to do this?

Any first-hand stories welcome.
Click to expand...

If you strap the little buggers in tight and make sure they can't reach anything, they should be no problem. :yesnod: :yesnod:

-Skip

and, YES I'm kidding. How old are they?
 
I spent much of my childhood flying around the country with my folks in the family Bo. Had probably done 10+ coast to coast flights by the time I was 18 and started pursuing flying on my own. Great memories I will always have, and believe it or not, some of the lessons I learned doing that as a kid in the right seat, have stuck with me as still being important today. Of note, after all those years being his pesonal auto pilot, I was 27 years old, and a carrier qualified Naval Aviator before the old man ever actually let me land the thing :) He just laughed as I bounced the thing halfway down the runway......first flared landing in a few years was my excuse. Anyway, I think when you are comfortable in your own capabilities and experience, absolutely take your kids flying. See how they like it....maybe the bug will bite them too!
 
ian_rand said:
Plenty of good first-hand experiences and good information. This forum is quickly becoming a favorite. Thanks.

I got my answer and a lot more, but just to answer a few pertinent questions from posters: my children are 7 and 5 and yes, I was asking about taking them (if ever) after I get my license and how much experience to have before taking them even after your license.

It sounds like yes, it can be fun for the whole family and that's great to hear.

Poster NoHeat said something of great interest to me:


I was not aware of that. One often hears flying is safer than driving, but I guess that's about commercial flights. Where could one get more info on actual accident rates for small planes? Would you consider flying more similar to a motorcycle ride than a car ride in terms of fatality risk?
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Betty Faux was DE on a couple of my rides and when I asked her what standard she held a PP candidate to was "Would I feel safe sending my daughter with them?"
 
Skip Miller said:
If you strap the little buggers in tight and make sure they can't reach anything, they should be no problem. :yesnod: :yesnod:

-Skip

and, YES I'm kidding. How old are they?
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Well actually, I did learn the hard way to NOT have a five year old up front within stretched out foot distance of the flap control on a rented 172... This was one of my first flights after getting my PPL. So... keeping the little buggers strapped in and far away from anything they can touch up front is probably not a bad suggestion. :D
 
ian_rand said:
I was not aware of that. One often hears flying is safer than driving, but I guess that's about commercial flights. Where could one get more info on actual accident rates for small planes? Would you consider flying more similar to a motorcycle ride than a car ride in terms of fatality risk?
Click to expand...

The King's have a DVD called practical risk management which is one source of the analysis. The analysis is good based on the entire pool but IMHO you have far more control of the risk factors in a plane. Don't run out of gas, avoid the buzz jobs, stay VMC until you're IR and the risks are greatly mitigated. I fly with my kids all the time, You ask good questions, mitigate the risks you can and if the residual risk is within your tolerance... Go for it!
 
It really depends on age.

I took my then-5-year-old son up early in my training (dual) once, and put him in the back seat of the 172N as we flew to another nearby airport and practiced landings. I gave him explicit instructions that he was not to speak while we were approaching for a landing until after we had left the runway. It was fine, but I could see where it could be an issue for another kid. I would have taken him on every dual flight afterward, but my instructor wasn't comfy about the liability.

When I did my Piper checkout (and he was 6), I put him in the back seat and he got his first taste of stalls and steep turns. It was a blast for both of us.

Just yesterday, I flew a cross country with him and his mom, to go check out a Gold Rush town in the Mother Lode. This aircraft had a glass cockpit (Aspen) and he asked a billion questions about it, all enroute like he should.

Now, there are some issues, but nothing serious. He has needed to be told not to argue with the PIC, and not to touch any of the controls without permission. Occasionally, he has to be told not to talk over ATC or get in the way of calls I need to make (e.g., contacting ground). The most serious issue is that he has to be told to drink fluids, especially at high altitude, to avoid altitude sickness (not at all a problem, unless he is dehydrated). He tends to prefer the back seat, because he has trouble seeing over the instrument panel. And back seat visibility in the Cessnas especially is much better than you might think. He gets his very own DC10-30 headset.

So far, he hasn't seen any real limitations. He's been as high as 11,500, through continuous turbulence over a mountain pass, and witnessed me having trouble getting the airplane down at Lake Tahoe (too much airspeed, too tight a pattern).

I think it's entirely worth it. I could see some issues with a toddler -- largely solved by having a second adult in the back seat with the kid.
 
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NTSB hung a helicopter accident today on evidence that a guy's 5 year old sitting in his lap stomped on an anti-torque pedal and he or the Instructor overreacted with power and cyclic causing a tailstrike that killed all on board.

So my initial response is: Sure, take the kids but don't put them on your lap in a helicopter. :(
 
Also look into SVT technology early, if you think you will be wanting to rent that equipment to fly your family in, you may as well started on your checkout in it as part of your PP process since there is typically some time required to learn the equipment architecture. There's more to learning to use it properly, but in the end it provides a great situational awareness benefit, and loss of situational awareness and CFIT, Controlled Flight Into Terrain, is a close second to running out of fuel for the cause of fatal accidents. If you eliminate those two factors from flying then the safety statistic starts turning downright rosy.
 
Ian, for the most part your question has been ignored. What I think you are asking is about the safety aspect. See my earlier post. The numbers for small single engine aircraft operated by PP is a little hard to come by. All part 91 operations are lumped together. Gulfstreams crewed by commercial pilots and the fresh PP in the Cherokee. The corporate operators skew the results more favorable. However even with that the accident rate is pretty bad. If you break all of the corporate operations out then what is left is more than pretty bad. A while back there was a heck of a discussion on the BT board. The best I could tell based on some work done at that site small single engine planes with PP's at the controls were actually worse than motorcycles on a per mile basis. I am not a statitician so I do not know how good their methods were in determining this.
Bottom line is there is significant risk. Both of my kids have ridden in single engine airplanes and ridden on the back of a motorcycle with me at the controls of both. Does not make it safe, it is a rewards/risk decision.
 
Here is the long and short of it. Aviation is extremely dangerous if you are not willing to commit the effort required to learn as much as you can about the technical aspects of flying as well as the philosophical and discipline issues of aviation decission making in the real world and learning to analyze and manage risk accordingly. The greatest hazard in regards to aviation is the propensity of small judgement errors becoming fatal. If you are cheap and lazy of thought and effort, aviation will kill you.
 
ian_rand said:
I was not aware of that. One often hears flying is safer than driving, but I guess that's about commercial flights. Where could one get more info on actual accident rates for small planes? Would you consider flying more similar to a motorcycle ride than a car ride in terms of fatality risk?
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I think others have mentioned this already, but general aviation accident rates lump a lot of things together. There are a lot of things one can do to reduce or increase their risks. For example, before a dual cross country flight today, I did a very good preflight and caught a couple of items on a rental Cessna 172 that caused us to switch to a different aircraft. It wasn't fun having to redo everything that I just did, but it was needed to keep things safe. I've cancelled flights because I wasn't feeling well, winds were too high, temperatures were too high and for other reasons.

The Cessna 172 is pretty well regarded as being a safe aircraft (http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/sp9512.html) but if one overloads it, flies into bad weather, flies too low, is drunk, etc, bad things can, will and have happened.

Another book that I've read and recommend is "The Killing Zone" (http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Zone-How-Why-Pilots/dp/007136269X) -- it addresses the most common factors of why low time pilots wind up in an aluminum ball.
 
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