Would you land here?

[Bob Bement]

The Minam Lodge is in Northeastern Oregon. It is located in the bottom of a canyon, along the Minam River. It is about 17 miles east of LaGrande Or. The field elevation is 3600' and is about 2600' long. The strip is sod and gravel. You land up stream and take off down stream normally. There is a ridge on each side of the canyon about 7500' in elevtion. The website for the lodge is minamlodgeoutfitters.com with pictures and info. It is a roadless area, the closest road is at the trail head about 8 miles away at Moss Springs. Reds Horse ranch is just above this place but it is closed, as the forest service took it over. In the picture The Minam is in the upper left hand portion of the picture. (Picture) Bob

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Yep I'd definately land there, real question is, would I take off from there?!? It doesn't look too radical really, depending on ones aircraft.

 

[EdFred]

My Cherokee with just me, fuel, and gear? You bet.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

2600' is not terrible if it is smooth, and not long grass for many light a/c.
I would ask,
'what type a/c?
'what conditions of weight and weather'?
'are there obstacles'?
another that is telling is; 'what types a/c or operations routinely fly in and out of there?

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Helicopter? Fer sure!
Cherokee? Depends...

 

[fgcason]

Based on that picture and a few others I saw of it a while back, it's not much worse than our old farm runway. I would have to take a look at the obstacles for myself while actually flying the valley but I'd very likely do it. It looks like fun.

 

[SCCutler]

Light, probably would.

Rather be in a 182 than a Bo. Ed''s Cherokee would be fine, too.

Like Dave K, it ain't the landing that'd worry me.

Only other thing is, I really can't see the rest of the terrain to see what kind of climb gradient I'd need.

 

[Bob Bement]

Light, probably would.

Rather be in a 182 than a Bo. Ed''s Cherokee would be fine, too.

Like Dave K, it ain't the landing that'd worry me.

Only other thing is, I really can't see the rest of the terrain to see what kind of climb gradient I'd need.

Spiike, There are trees at the down river end. When they used to keep the Reds horse ranch open I would take off up river and just hop the River and fence and land at Reds. Then I would have 2800' feet after taxiing to the end of the runway and instead of 2600' I could use all of the upper one and all of the Minam strip to clear the trees. But now we can't count on the reds runway to be maintained. You come in over the trees, over the River,and a fence to land on the north or down river end of the Minam strip. It is a rush.

 

[EdFred]

Only other thing is, I really can't see the rest of the terrain to see what kind of climb gradient I'd need.

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=11&n=5022348&e=450431&s=25&size=l&datum=nad83&layer=DRG25
You have two more wishes...

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Spiike, There are trees at the down river end. When they used to keep the Reds horse ranch open I would take off up river and just hop the River and fence and land at Reds. Then I would have 2800' feet after taxiing to the end of the runway and instead of 2600' I could use all of the upper one and all of the Minam strip to clear the trees. But now we can't count on the reds runway to be maintained. You come in over the trees, over the River,and a fence to land on the north or down river end of the Minam strip. It is a rush.

What aircraft and in what conditions were you flying?
It looks like an exceptionally great place to check out when the passes are clear.

 

[Bob Bement]

What aircraft and in what conditions were you flying?
It looks like an exceptionally great place to check out when the passes

are clear.

Dave, I only fly into this place if it is clear or high clouds. I usually go in for breakfast, so it is early morning.( read cool temp ) I fly a straight tail 182, 1959 model no mods. I will try to find a pic of my daughter Beckie and N 9054N at the Minam Lodge. (Picture )

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Dave, I only fly into this place if it is clear or high clouds. I usually go in for breakfast, so it is early morning.( read cool temp ) I fly a straight tail 182, 1959 model no mods. I will try to find a pic of my daughter Beckie and N 9054N at the Minam Lodge. (Picture )

That's a great plane you have there for that kind of flying.
About how high and how far from the end of the strip are those trees?

 

[Bob Bement]

That's a great plane you have there for that kind of flying.
About how high and how far from the end of the strip are those trees?

Dave, If you will look at the map that Ed posted you can see about how close the trees would be. They are just across the river. I will post another picture of the lodge and trees around it. The trees at the end are all about the same height as these. I don't have a picture of the final approach. I have a video, but not a still. I don't know how to post videos. To old and computer illiterate.
(PICTURE)

 

[jesse]

It's hard to say without seeing it in person. Based on what I can see I would do it.

For takeoff I'd probably rotate and then start a climbing circle over the runway and continue to circle the runway climbing until I was well clear.

Like I said though. Hard to say until I seen it in person.

 

[SkyHog]

While I wouldn't tell you that you should, I would. I just a few weeks back landed at a 2500ft dirt strip with mountains nearby, at over 6000ft elevation.

That should be no problem.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

While I wouldn't tell you that you should, I would. I just a few weeks back landed at a 2500ft dirt strip with mountains nearby, at over 6000ft elevation.

That should be no problem.

How hot was it & with what wind though?

 

[SkyHog]

How hot was it & with what wind though?

Strong wind, just below standard day.

 

[Bob Bement]

It's hard to say without seeing it in person. Based on what I can see I would do it.

For takeoff I'd probably rotate and then start a climbing circle over the runway and continue to circle the runway climbing until I was well clear.

Like I said though. Hard to say until I seen it in person.

Jessie, The best thing to do on takeoff is to continue North down the River as you climb. The Canyon is pretty tight to do a circle climb. If you check the map that Ed posted you can see how narrow and steep the walls of the canyon are. When contour lines are that close the hillside is steep. Bob

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Strong wind, just below standard day.

That's near ideal conditions, and with no obstacles as I recall...

As you know, later in the year, there will be days when your plane and most others wouldn't be able to stall over a waist high barb wire fence at the end of that strip, let alone trees. Those are the times it's nice to be able to fly in ground effect over off airport rough ground for quite a ways to ensure a safer take off attempt.

 

[Bob Bement]

It's hard to say without seeing it in person. Based on what I can see I would do it.

For takeoff I'd probably rotate and then start a climbing circle over the runway and continue to circle the runway climbing until I was well clear.

Like I said though. Hard to say until I seen it in person.

Jessie, This picture shows a little of the fast raising terrain on the side of the runway. (picture ) Bob

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

It's hard to say without seeing it in person. Based on what I can see I would do it.

For takeoff I'd probably rotate and then start a climbing circle over the runway and continue to circle the runway climbing until I was well clear.

Like I said though. Hard to say until I seen it in person.

That works if DA will even allow an aircraft to spiral up while in a steep bank instead of losing altitude.

 

[poadeleted20]

In a Cessna 180? Sure. In my Tiger? Probably not.

 

[Henning]

The Minam Lodge is in Northeastern Oregon. It is located in the bottom of a canyon, along the Minam River. It is about 17 miles east of LaGrande Or. The field elevation is 3600' and is about 2600' long. The strip is sod and gravel. You land up stream and take off down stream normally. There is a ridge on each side of the canyon about 7500' in elevtion. The website for the lodge is minamlodgeoutfitters.com with pictures and info. It is a roadless area, the closest road is at the trail head about 8 miles away at Moss Springs. Reds Horse ranch is just above this place but it is closed, as the forest service took it over. In the picture The Minam is in the upper left hand portion of the picture. (Picture) Bob

2600' of runway at 3600msl in a long canyon with a river to follow out... Yeah, most likely would depending of course on the aircraft performance and weather, but I think most GA small planes would get in and out with moderate loads on most days.

 

[fgcason]

For takeoff I'd probably rotate and then start a climbing circle over the runway and continue to circle the runway climbing until I was well clear.

Have you ever done a maximum performance chandelle <10 seconds after liftoff while turning into rapidly rising terrain that you have no hope of outclimbing? We use to do that a lot at our farm. It's interesting.

Mountain runways are usually much much easier to just fly up/down valley instead of going round and round. From those pictures, it looks like straight out is the only sensible solution.

Like I said though. Hard to say until I seen it in person.

 

[Henning]

It's hard to say without seeing it in person. Based on what I can see I would do it.

For takeoff I'd probably rotate and then start a climbing circle over the runway and continue to circle the runway climbing until I was well clear.

Like I said though. Hard to say until I seen it in person.

Not a good idea. You just flyout down the canyon straight line, try to stay in the middle, and if there is a crosswind in the canyon, favor the leeward side as you climb and stay out of the windshadow of ridges. If there's a river, there a canyon you can probably fit through. Circles pose two problems, one simple and obvious being that you'll have to give up a component of lift to the bank which means you won't go up as fast. Second biggie is surface effects on the air currents as you get close to the edges, and you will get close

 

[mgkdrgn]

Hmmm, 300 feet longer than my home field was ... and the trees are further from the end of the runway. No problemo. (PA28-180D)

The Minam Lodge is in Northeastern Oregon. It is located in the bottom of a canyon, along the Minam River. It is about 17 miles east of LaGrande Or. The field elevation is 3600' and is about 2600' long. The strip is sod and gravel. You land up stream and take off down stream normally. There is a ridge on each side of the canyon about 7500' in elevtion. The website for the lodge is minamlodgeoutfitters.com with pictures and info. It is a roadless area, the closest road is at the trail head about 8 miles away at Moss Springs. Reds Horse ranch is just above this place but it is closed, as the forest service took it over. In the picture The Minam is in the upper left hand portion of the picture. (Picture) Bob

 

[gismo]

Not a good idea. You just flyout down the canyon straight line, try to stay in the middle, and if there is a crosswind in the canyon, favor the leeward side as you climb and stay out of the windshadow of ridges. If there's a river, there a canyon you can probably fit through. Circles pose two problems, one simple and obvious being that you'll have to give up a component of lift to the bank which means you won't go up as fast. Second biggie is surface effects on the air currents as you get close to the edges, and you will get close

Yep. In the vicinity of terrain you must be aware of the wind and the rising/descending air it creates as it passes over the terrain. Even if you aren't at a high DA, the down currents can overcome the climb rate of most piston powered airplanes, especially if they are fully loaded. Then again, climbing slowly while flying down a canyon can be a big mistake as you are likely to "find" wires running across or a ridge you can't top. The one thing Jesse proposed (checking it out before flying it for the first time) has a lot of merit. A circling climb can work under the right conditions but it's not always an option.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Hmmm, 300 feet longer than my home field was ... and the trees are further from the end of the runway. No problemo. (PA28-180D)

Yabut, what DA is your home field at?

 

[Bob Bement]

Yep. In the vicinity of terrain you must be aware of the wind and the rising/descending air it creates as it passes over the terrain. Even if you aren't at a high DA, the down currents can overcome the climb rate of most piston powered airplanes, especially if they are fully loaded. Then again, climbing slowly while flying down a canyon can be a big mistake as you are likely to "find" wires running across or a ridge you can't top. The one thing Jesse proposed (checking it out before flying it for the first time) has a lot of merit. A circling climb can work under the right conditions but it's not always an option.

Lance, What you are saying is true. But this location is 14 miles upstream from the closest power lines. The lodge uses a generator. Also it is on the river, so if you stay on the river you will not have to go over any ridges. You can keep climbing until you are over all the high terrain. Bob

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Yabut, what DA is your home field at?

One of the best things a CFI can do to train pilots in is simulated DA ops.

A lot of them will nod their heads to the academics and even do OK in calculations but it just doesn't sink for them how much aircraft performance can suffer in high DA until they try flying any airplane with drastically reduced RPM for a while as an actual flying SIM. Starting right at take off from a familiar field, probably best at one with no obstructions depending on length and with the CFI safely keeping the RPM low so they see what it's really like in an anemic aircraft for about 15 minutes or so, if safely able. Seeing what it's like struggling to climb at all and then requesting a turn for simulation purposes should adequately finish up the demo.

If that doesn't truly open their eyes sufficiently for some safety and competency, well then WT_, the NTSB will have additional job security.

 

[jesse]

Well that makes sense. I didn't really look at the terrain all that much, but flying down the canyon.

It's just hard to really be able to say a thing without seeing it.

I'm personally a bit of a flatlander, so these kind of things I don't know much of anything about.

 

[Bob Bement]

Jesse, As Dave mentioned Density Altitude gets too many flatlanders. When it is hot, humid and high you can get in trouble real quick. Then add hills, trees, and a few other obstacles and if you don't think will effect the performance of your aircraft look out. We have to much of that in the back country of Idaho and other mountainous areas. A airplane will do things at sea level and pilots sometimes think they will do the same thing at a 2000' foot strip at 5800' in the afternoon in July. Experience is a good teacher, but the test comes first and the lesson comes later. O.K. I'll get off the soap box now. Fly safe.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Jesse, As Dave mentioned Density Altitude gets too many flatlanders.

The high DA consistently gets a good share of mountain pilots too!

 

[poadeleted20]

You want to simulate a high DA takeoff in a complex plane? Pull the power back one inch for every thousand feet of extra DA you want to simulate. Just make darn sure what the runway required at that higher DA is, and plan for it (plus a generous safey margin), and be ready to give that extra throttle back if things start to look hairy. This will also give you an idea of how real power-on takeoff/departure stalls occur -- the pilot doesn't realize how low a pitch attitude will result in a stall with power available reduced so much despite the firewalled throttle.

 

[infotango]

My airport has a density altitude feature on the ATIS, which is mighty helpful on those hot summer days. Its amazing even at my low airport how much difference a 100 degree humid day can make in terms of climb performance. Of course that hasn't been a problem lately, the climb performance is great in the cold.

 

[Bob Bement]

I learned a lot about DA at Jackpot Nv. a long time back. The runway is 5217' and it was hot 4:00 PM ( summer ) and 4 of us in a Cessna 170. The only thing that saved me was I took off to the South which is down hill and nothing to climb over. The runway is long 6900'. The airplane did not want to go up. It took a good while to get going. I was a new pilot with a lot to learn and the good lord saw that I got to live long enough to learn. I had stopped in Twin Falls for fuel and only added 10 gal. so I wasn't heavy on fuel. Good thing. A story I'm not to proud of.

 

[mgkdrgn]

In the winter .... it's likely a negative number!

In the 95 deg 95% humidity summer ... wayyyy up there!

PA28-180 ain't the pretty'st, er th'fast'st, but it will do short fields.

(Laurel, MD. W18)

Yabut, what DA is your home field at?