Would you include this woman?

[Rushie]

This wasn't an event that was created for the purpose of learning history. This was their agenda (this actually happened back in March already):

• Come to the Lachute Airport for a day of aviation discovery for girls and women and all the family.
  • Go on a free flight (restricted to girls of all ages who pre-registered to fly)
  • Try some simulators
  • Visit Mirabel Tower and Nolinor Aviation
  • Meet female staff of company like Air Canada, CQFA, ETS, EMAM, RCAF, NavCanada at their company booth
  • Learn about aviation with fun games
  • Share some women pilots´ one of a kind experience about flying helicopters.

And this is who it was about:

View attachment 57003 View attachment 57004View attachment 57005View attachment 57006View attachment 57007View attachment 57008View attachment 57009


They are just trying to inspire girls to think about a career in aviation by showing: "Here's some other women who did it". It doesn't need to be a complete list of all women in aviation ever. Neither does it even need to be the best or most outstanding women. Just a few cool ones.

I see your point. If they're just picking a few might as well leave out the Nazi one. But if l were an interested girl and asked, "Who was the first woman helicopter pilot?" I would want a straight answer.

 

[Ventucky Red]

Von Braun I believe was a member of the Nazi party .

He was also a member of the SS..lets not forget his use of slave labor from Dora-Mittelbau... But he helped us beat those darn Ruskies so I guess he is OK...
With Hitler:

With JFK

 

[Pilawt]

The only permanent monument on US soil to a Soviet (Stalinist Soviet, no less) achievement is at my former home field, Pearson Field in Vancouver WA (KVUO).



In 1937 the first trans-polar intercontinental flight landed at Pearson (non-stop from Moscow), where the three-man crew was greeted by the then-C.O. of Vancouver Barracks, Gen. George C. Marshall.





A major street in the city is named for the Soviet pilot:

 

[OkieFlyer]

Supporting some particular brand of politics is one thing, particularly when ther's not much of a choice. Actively participating in, advocating for, and being a spokesperson for the most evil regime of the last century, and even meeting with Hitler in his home in Berchtesgaden is quite another. Even after all that, I might still think you a decent human being if you didn't know about the atrocities and expressed remorse after learning of them. I can't fault someone doing their duty for their countrymen, even under an oppressive regime, but having not denounced the Nazis, I count her as evil as her Fuhrer.

Any mention of Hanna's aviation accomplishments should be accompanied by disclosure of her unabashed support of evil.

 

[Palmpilot]

...Any mention of Hanna's aviation accomplishments should be accompanied by disclosure of her unabashed support of evil.

I personally think that would be a much better solution than leaving her out altogether.

 

[OkieFlyer]

I personally think that would be a much better solution than leaving her out altogether.

Works for me. Just don't leave out the purveyor of evil part.

 

[Rushie]

I personally think that would be a much better solution than leaving her out altogether.

I'd be fine with that, what I object to is the complete exclusion. I have a real problem with people trying to decide for me what I should or should not be exposed to.

From my brief googling I think I've got her pegged. She was hyper focused on her aviation goals and somewhat stupid about politics. Her flying was in the context of the environment she was in and so she went with it. Hitler has been described as charismatic so she took advantage of opportunities to meet with the leader. When it was first suggested to her about the gassing she didn't want to believe it. In the end when she like all of us could not deny it, she probably viewed it like anyone committed to their country or their cause, that sometimes bad things happen but that doesn't necessarily discredit your cause in the main. You have to remember that the cause sold to the German people wasn't genocide, it was Lebensraum, or just an expansion of opportunity and betterment of their own situation which you have to remember pure sucked after WWI. To remain bitter about how Germany was treated by the Allies between the wars is very understandable if you know your history, and not everyone is blessed with enough open mindedness to completely reverse gears in the end and say, "Oh gee, everything we fought for was wrong and we were the bad guys after all." To be able to do that means rendering all your efforts meaningless. It takes a special person to admit you were that wrong.

All that being said, I still feel contempt for those who didn't. But it's contempt for their sheer stupidity and inability to see what's right, rather than insisting they're evil. Some definitely were evil. Those who ran the gas chambers, Hitler himself, those who knew all along and complied. This woman wasn't that, she just wanted to fly airplanes. She suffered from whatever genetic abnormality exists in all socialists - whatever allows them to be brainwashed by visions of utopia. She never outgrew that and never forgave the enemy for defeating her homeland in a war.

 

[steingar]

If you are honoring women in aviation for their aviating and not their political opinions, don't exclude any. Otherwise you are distorting history.

Pure and utter baloney on steroids. History is recorded in books and lives in museums. A celebration honoring someone is just that, a celebration.
I'll bet you're one of the cretins objecting to the dismantling of civil war monuments in the south.

 

[Cooter]

Pure and utter baloney on steroids. History is recorded in books and lives in museums. A celebration honoring someone is just that, a celebration.
I'll bet you're one of the cretins objecting to the dismantling of civil war monuments in the south.

Are you saying everyone who objects is a cretin, or that only some are cretins and she happens to be one of those? If its the former, then you're calling me a cretin as well and I should be offended. I have a lot of respect for some of the Southern Generals.

 

[OkieFlyer]

I'd be fine with that, what I object to is the complete exclusion. I have a real problem with people trying to decide for me what I should or should not be exposed to.

From my brief googling I think I've got her pegged. She was hyper focused on her aviation goals and somewhat stupid about politics. Her flying was in the context of the environment she was in and so she went with it. Hitler has been described as charismatic so she took advantage of opportunities to meet with the leader. When it was first suggested to her about the gassing she didn't want to believe it. In the end when she like all of us could not deny it, she probably viewed it like anyone committed to their country or their cause, that sometimes bad things happen but that doesn't necessarily discredit your cause in the main. You have to remember that the cause sold to the German people wasn't genocide, it was Lebensraum, or just an expansion of opportunity and betterment of their own situation which you have to remember pure sucked after WWI. To remain bitter about how Germany was treated by the Allies between the wars is very understandable if you know your history, and not everyone is blessed with enough open mindedness to completely reverse gears in the end and say, "Oh gee, everything we fought for was wrong and we were the bad guys after all." To be able to do that means rendering all your efforts meaningless. It takes a special person to admit you were that wrong.

All that being said, I still feel contempt for those who didn't. But it's contempt for their sheer stupidity and inability to see what's right, rather than insisting they're evil. Some definitely were evil. Those who ran the gas chambers, Hitler himself, those who knew all along and complied. This woman wasn't that, she just wanted to fly airplanes. She suffered from whatever genetic abnormality exists in all socialists - whatever allows them to be brainwashed by visions of utopia. She never outgrew that and never forgave the enemy for defeating her homeland in a war.

I respectfully disagree. I believe she was as Nazi as it gets.

As I recall, she pleaded with the Fuhrer to let her develop a Kamikaze type program. Reported directly to Hitler that Goring was planning to take over Nazi leadership. Received her cyanide capsule directly from Hitler. Was one of the last people to see Hitler before his alleged suicide. Pleaded with him not to kill himself. As a person in Hitler's inner circle, I believe she probably knew what was going on with death camps and such. Also, as someone close to Hitler, she would have known what a half crippled, drugged up, babbling madman he had become. There's nothing charismatic about Hitler at that point, and only the most dedicated Nazi believers remained faithful to him. Even many of the high command lost confidence in him long before then. Not Hanna though. She was steadfastly Nazi to the bitter end.

Stupid about politics? Maybe, but if you stick by the fuhrer to the end, you're no better than Goebbels or Himmler or Bormann in my book. She was not a sheltered girly girl like Eva Braun. She knew what was up, and she wanted in as deep as she could get.

Heck, some conspiracy theorists believe she flew Adolf out of Berlin at the end of the war. Right off the 5000' x 85' street in front of the Brandenburg Gate.

You'll have to pardon me. I just have such contempt for those that were deeply entrenched in the Nazi machine. I believe she was one.


If you want to honor a female German aviatrix, go with Melitta von Stauffenberg. An accomplished test pilot and engineer who worked on jet technology and rocket propulsion, and sister-in-law to Claus von Stauffenberg, who nearly succeeded in assassinating Hitler. Had she been able to secure a suitable airplane, she would have flown Claus to the Wolfs Lair to carry out the bombing. A dedicated German, but not a dedicated Nazi, shot down trying to escape to Switzerland.

 

[Palmpilot]

...She suffered from whatever genetic abnormality exists in all socialists - whatever allows them to be brainwashed by visions of utopia....

All socialists? That's a pretty sweeping generalization there. And what is the evidence that it's a genetic trait?

 

[James331]

She was just following orders, just like the North American kids who shoot up the Middle East to pay for their college. Trying to take the high road at this point is laughable

 

[Cooter]

She was just following orders, just like the North American kids who shoot up the Middle East to pay for their college. Trying to take the high road at this point is laughable

No. It's your moral equivalence that's laughable. On second thought, it's actually despicable. You might want to try a little harder to conceal your hateful sentiments. Most troops won't take kindly to being compared to Nazis.

 

[hindsight2020]

She was just following orders, just like the North American kids who shoot up the Middle East to pay for their college. Trying to take the high road at this point is laughable

Holy false equivalence batman. Is there any light refraction in your world, or is it all bumping into hallways in monochrome? Might want to get that looked at on your next medical.

 

[James331]

Ohhh too soon, my bad, probably another decade before history really writes in the permanent marker about our screwing around and war crimes in the Mid East, or do y'all still believe in the Easter bunny and these flights of fancy too?

 

[Cooter]

Ohhh too soon, my bad, probably another decade before history really writes in the permanent marker about our screwing around and war crimes in the Mid East, or do y'all still believe in the Easter bunny and these flights of fancy too?

You moralize from your own feeble perceptions of reality. It is a simple mind that accepts broad categories and rejects distinctions. And no, it's not that it's too soon, it's that your failure to understand the issues that you moralize on is moronic. It's the same story with you over and over. You've got these high and mighty ideas that are rooted in nothing more than your own preferences. It would be one thing if you could actually articulate your position but instead, you throw things out there to get a reaction then disappear when you realize you have no real answers.

 

[James331]

Yeah, all the best troopers say the same line, and I get it, it's hard to have that cold resolve to know that you are killing people you have no personal issue with because you want money for college, or because there are no good jobs in your economically depressed town, the military markets you a awesome excuse and a great way to de humanize others who are just different enough from your uneducated self that you can live with killing them for a living.

Funny thing is if those people were more powerful than our nation, and were the ones invading your home town, you'd be the one planting bombs and defending your home.

Long and short, there has not been one war in most of our lifetimes that's was been remotely justified, it's been killing for money and power, plan and simple, so to point the finger of judgement at other empires who tried to rule the world and came up short, based on our own dark history, it's just short sighted and foolish.

 

[1600vw]

Yeah, all the best troopers say the same line, and I get it, it's hard to have that cold resolve to know that you are killing people you have no personal issue with because you want money for college, or because there are no good jobs in your economically depressed town, the military markets you a awesome excuse and a great way to de humanize others who are just different enough from your uneducated self that you can live with killing them for a living.

Funny thing is if those people were more powerful than our nation, and were the ones invading your home town, you'd be the one planting bombs and defending your home.

Long and short, there has not been one war in most of our lifetimes that's was been remotely justified, it's been killing for money and power, plan and simple, so to point the finger of judgement at other empires who tried to rule the world and came up short, based on our own dark history, it's just short sighted and foolish.

Where were you on 9/11? You must have forgot about a couple buildings in a town we call New York City. I for one will never forget.

Tony

 

[RJM62]

I probably would exclude Hanna Reisch from this particular event due to its specific purpose. It seems to me that it's basically a big, aviation-themed party that's primarily intended to spark a passion for aviation in preteen and adolescent girls in the hope that they'll consider aviation careers. I don't think bringing dead Nazis into the mix contributes very much to that purpose. At best, Reisch would be a distraction in this particular context.

If it were purely an historical exhibit, on the other hand, then I most certainly would include her. Whatever else she may have been, she was an extraordinary and accomplished aviatrix. Her accomplishments have earned her a place in aviation history; and I don't think history should be sanitized because it offends people, no matter how justifiably.

I just think this particular event is better off without Nazis.

Rich

 

[Rushie]

I'll bet you're one of the cretins objecting to the dismantling of civil war monuments in the south.

No! I'd rather see a giant fro pick with a black power fist sticking out of the concrete.

 

[Rushie]

All socialists? That's a pretty sweeping generalization there. And what is the evidence that it's a genetic trait?

You're right, it might be their upbringing which allows them to be brainwashed by visions of utopia. I lie partially reclined corrected.

 

[Rushie]

I respectfully disagree. I believe she was as Nazi as it gets.

As I recall, she pleaded with the Fuhrer to let her develop a Kamikaze type program. Reported directly to Hitler that Goring was planning to take over Nazi leadership. Received her cyanide capsule directly from Hitler. Was one of the last people to see Hitler before his alleged suicide. Pleaded with him not to kill himself. As a person in Hitler's inner circle, I believe she probably knew what was going on with death camps and such. Also, as someone close to Hitler, she would have known what a half crippled, drugged up, babbling madman he had become. There's nothing charismatic about Hitler at that point, and only the most dedicated Nazi believers remained faithful to him. Even many of the high command lost confidence in him long before then. Not Hanna though. She was steadfastly Nazi to the bitter end.

Stupid about politics? Maybe, but if you stick by the fuhrer to the end, you're no better than Goebbels or Himmler or Bormann in my book. She was not a sheltered girly girl like Eva Braun. She knew what was up, and she wanted in as deep as she could get.

Heck, some conspiracy theorists believe she flew Adolf out of Berlin at the end of the war. Right off the 5000' x 85' street in front of the Brandenburg Gate.

You'll have to pardon me. I just have such contempt for those that were deeply entrenched in the Nazi machine. I believe she was one.


If you want to honor a female German aviatrix, go with Melitta von Stauffenberg. An accomplished test pilot and engineer who worked on jet technology and rocket propulsion, and sister-in-law to Claus von Stauffenberg, who nearly succeeded in assassinating Hitler. Had she been able to secure a suitable airplane, she would have flown Claus to the Wolfs Lair to carry out the bombing. A dedicated German, but not a dedicated Nazi, shot down trying to escape to Switzerland.

Oh yes she was definitely deep into it. I'm not excusing it, just explaining it. Dont get me wrong, if I were God on judgement day I wouldn't give her a pass.

Must I repeat once more and for the last time? If I were a little girl interested in learning about female aviators in whatever venue, I would not want a big blank hole where "first this or that" would be. I guess if the little kid raises her hand and says "Who was the first woman to pilot a helicopter?" everyone would gasp and fall silent, someone would have to usher the kid outside and whisper to her, "It was a [looks nervously about]...a Nazi, but were not allowed to talk about that. Don't be asking stupid questions anymore!"

 

[James331]

Where were you on 9/11? You must have forgot about a couple buildings in a town we call New York City. I for one will never forget.

Tony

Uhhh, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc didn't blow the towers up.

 

[Launchpad]

I guess the problem people have with her is that historians and biographers describe her as "unrepentant". Now I can see the use of the word unrepentant in two different lights. If she claimed that the Third Reich and Hitler were righteous and glorious and that she was sorry the Nazis failed because she believed in their policies and beliefs, then I would say she was unrepentant and I probably would not include her in the event, or at least with a huge asterisk beside her display!

On the other hand if she simply says that she is not in any way sorry that she joined the Nazi Party and that she did her best to serve the war effort and her country, then I would be understanding of that position. Like you said, if you wanted to do anything important with your life in Nazi Germany, you had to join the party. Most any ambitious person would have in those circumstances, particularly if they weren't aware of what was really going on.

Also, your country is your country, you either support it or you leave at some point during a crisis. Most do not want to leave as it is all they love and know.

Though I lurk on this forum, I don't post too often...indeed I was simply checking an unrelated thread I started, when I saw this thread.

I associate with a flying club in Western Germany whose older members, with whom I occasionally share a drink at their clubrooms, were involved with Hanna Reitsch well after WWII. We have discussed her on several occasions, both as a pilot and as an individual.

Nobody can deny her achievements in aviation, they are undoubtably impressive...but as far as being unrepentant goes, Dav8or's first paragraph pretty much sums up her political views and nobody at my end attempts even the slightest denial of this awkward fact, on the contrary I notice they distance themselves from and condemn her when this aspect of Ms Reitsch's persona is discussed. She was a National Socialist to the core, the atrocities perpetrated by the Nazis were simply a necessary unpleasantry required in pursuit of the greater good of National Socialism so far as she was concerned. She was no less dedicated when she went to her grave.

Her aviation career is certainly noteworthy, but then so are her personal and politcal views and perhaps these should not be forgotten or forgiven.

 

[Dav8or]

This wasn't an event that was created for the purpose of learning history. This was their agenda (this actually happened back in March already):

• Come to the Lachute Airport for a day of aviation discovery for girls and women and all the family.
  • Go on a free flight (restricted to girls of all ages who pre-registered to fly)
  • Try some simulators
  • Visit Mirabel Tower and Nolinor Aviation
  • Meet female staff of company like Air Canada, CQFA, ETS, EMAM, RCAF, NavCanada at their company booth
  • Learn about aviation with fun games
  • Share some women pilots´ one of a kind experience about flying helicopters.

And this is who it was about:

View attachment 57003 View attachment 57004View attachment 57005View attachment 57006View attachment 57007View attachment 57008View attachment 57009


They are just trying to inspire girls to think about a career in aviation by showing: "Here's some other women who did it". It doesn't need to be a complete list of all women in aviation ever. Neither does it even need to be the best or most outstanding women. Just a few cool ones.

Agreed. It depends on the scope and purpose of your event. I wasn't intending to judge, or critique the organizers of this event so much as raise the hypothetical question of what would you do if you were putting on an event honoring women's achievements in aviation? I thought it an interesting conundrum.

 

[Palmpilot]

Uhhh, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc didn't blow the towers up.

I agree with you about Iraq, but Afghanistan was protecting the people who planned and ordered the 9/11 attacks.

 

[Dav8or]

She suffered from whatever genetic abnormality exists in all socialists - whatever allows them to be brainwashed by visions of utopia.

Yeah, the gene that never ever is found in a capitalist... What a dumb sentence.

 

[AdamZ]

Supporting some particular brand of politics is one thing, particularly when ther's not much of a choice. Actively participating in, advocating for, and being a spokesperson for the most evil regime of the last century, and even meeting with Hitler in his home in Berchtesgaden is quite another. Even after all that, I might still think you a decent human being if you didn't know about the atrocities and expressed remorse after learning of them. I can't fault someone doing their duty for their countrymen, even under an oppressive regime, but having not denounced the Nazis, I count her as evil as her Fuhrer.

Any mention of Hanna's aviation accomplishments should be accompanied by disclosure of her unabashed support of evil.

I think this post is pretty close to how I feel. I understand Rushie's point of not wanting someone else to decide what information he gets and that he can make judgments on it on his own. I respect that but I feel there is a difference in honoring someone and acknowledging the achievements they made. I disagree that someone as "connected" as she would not be aware of the massive death machine the Nazi's built and ran. They killed close to 10 Million civilians because of their religion, their ethnicity, sexual orientation. Something like that does not go un noticed even before the age of the internet. Her accomplishments in aviation can be recognized while labeling her for what she was and not honoring her.

 

[Matthew]

I probably would exclude Hanna Reisch from this particular event due to its specific purpose. It seems to me that it's basically a big, aviation-themed party that's primarily intended to spark a passion for aviation in preteen and adolescent girls in the hope that they'll consider aviation careers. I don't think bringing dead Nazis into the mix contributes very much to that purpose. At best, Reisch would be a distraction in this particular context.

If it were purely an historical exhibit, on the other hand, then I most certainly would include her. Whatever else she may have been, she was an extraordinary and accomplished aviatrix. Her accomplishments have earned her a place in aviation history; and I don't think history should be sanitized because it offends people, no matter how justifiably.

I just think this particular event is better off without Nazis.

Rich

Good point - if it's a "celebration of women in aviation", then include those worthy of being celebrated. If it's a statement of facts, then include her.

 

[Cooter]

Yeah, the gene that never ever is found in a capitalist... What a dumb sentence.

But it is inherent in the ideology. Socialism is about progress towards a utopian vision. Conservatism is about keeping things the way they are.

 

[OkieFlyer]

I think this post is pretty close to how I feel. I understand Rushie's point of not wanting someone else to decide what information he gets and that he can make judgments on it on his own. I respect that but I feel there is a difference in honoring someone and acknowledging the achievements they made. I disagree that someone as "connected" as she would not be aware of the massive death machine the Nazi's built and ran. They killed close to 10 Million civilians because of their religion, their ethnicity, sexual orientation. Something like that does not go un noticed even before the age of the internet. Her accomplishments in aviation can be recognized while labeling her for what she was and not honoring her.

I think a lot of people feel basically the same way as we do here. The problem many of us have is with "honoring" Hanna Reitsch, not with acknowledging the things she did.

She deserves NO honor.

 

[Palmpilot]

...Conservatism is about keeping things the way they are.

Well that certainly describes the fate of our current president's legislative agenda!

 

[James331]

I agree with you about Iraq, but Afghanistan was protecting the people who planned and ordered the 9/11 attacks.

So was DC, heck we not only have protected terrorists, sold arms to terrorists, we've trained all the best, or I guess that would be worst ones, yet I don't see Bush Jr/Sr, ether Clinton, or Obama in shackles heading off to gitmo.

I award you no points

 

[Palmpilot]

"Award" points, or don't award them. Makes no difference to me.

 

[Dav8or]

But it is inherent in the ideology. Socialism is about progress towards a utopian vision. Conservatism is about keeping things the way they are.

The way they are now, or 50 years ago, or 100 years ago, 500 years ago?? When was it it good enough and progress became a bad thing?

It not an ideology. It's simply the desire of humans to make the world a better place to live through invention and learning. People everywhere on the planet have been engaged in this type of behavior for thousands of years. It's really not a liberal, or conservative thing.

 

[Cooter]

The way they are now, or 50 years ago, or 100 years ago, 500 years ago?? When was it it good enough and progress became a bad thing?

It not an ideology. It's simply the desire of humans to make the world a better place to live through invention and learning. People everywhere on the planet have been engaged in this type of behavior for thousands of years. It's really not a liberal, or conservative thing.

Socialism isn't an ideology? I'm not sure I know how to interact with this other than to say you need to look at the history of last century.

 

[James331]

"Award" points, or don't award them. Makes no difference to me.

Ether way, FACTS are FACTS, and we have done more to SUPPORT terrorism all while sending TONS of money stolen from Americans income, sent to special interests earmarked for a "defeat" of terrorism, yet WE have done more to support the big terrorists than any other nation.

 

[Sundancer]

Ether way, FACTS are FACTS, and we have done more to SUPPORT terrorism all while sending TONS of money stolen of Americans income sent towards special interests earmarked for a "defeat" of terrorism, so WE have done more to support the big terrorists than any other nation.

A Junior High School is missing a student. . .

 

[Sundancer]

I'd mention her accomplishments - she did what she did. But a lot of Canadians were killed in WWII, and it's their call. My right-wing reactionary side suspects the Mayor's motives are more PC than in consideration of the war dead, but he was elected. . .

 

[Palmpilot]

Ether way, FACTS are FACTS, and we have done more to SUPPORT terrorism all while sending TONS of money stolen of Americans income sent towards special interests earmarked for a "defeat" of terrorism, so WE have done more to support the big terrorists than any other nation.

I would never claim that the U.S. is above reproach in its conduct of foreign policy, but what's that got to do with whether Afghanistan's former government harbored and protected the organization that planned and ordered the 9/11 attacks?