Trying to land on the deck of anything but an aircraft carrier will kill you, end of story.
would you fly across Lake MI in a 172 (80nm)
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Trying to land on the deck of anything but an aircraft carrier will kill you, end of story.
gprellwitz
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Yeah, that's probably (almost*) invariably true. I edited the original post!
*There are, undoubtedly stunt pilots who could plan something out to work, so there are exceptions!
Captain
Final Approach
For the record...I never suggested 'touching' any boat. I was just saying that those merchant cargo ships are slim on lookouts and you might want to make it REAL obvious that you're ditching next to them lest they sail right past your wreck off onto the sunset leaving you to...well...ya know...die.
Ultralight maybe. The minimum differential speed you're going to see with any Lakes' Freighter and a 152 with buffet in your finger tips is going to be >20kts. Basically you will have a maximum of 50' of space before you come to the end. If you are lucky the end will be off the side of the ship; if not second best will be you drop the mains between the containers. Since most stacks aren't even, this isn't likely. The most like result is that within 50' of touching your wheels you'll be stoped by a piece of steel that is a minimum of 3/8" thick, and likely of high structural integrity. With a 20+kt speed differential, not likely.
All ships are equipped with a fast rescue boat that is easy to launch, no worries, they are trained to use it. What you want to do is come from their stern quarter on the upwind side and cross his deck at wheel house level at about a 10* angle along with him heading off his leeward side. This will cause him the least course deviation to provide a lee for the rescue if the sea conditions are up. The bigger they are, the more speed you want to cross them with. A big ore carrier or container ship will take over a mile before she gets slowed down down and her boat over, so if you have the altitude to spare go ahead and take some extra speed on the way down.
gprellwitz
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Dang, If I have enough altitude and time to think all this through, I'm headed for shore!
Actually, quite interesting, thanks. You're at the interstices of the two worlds!
roncachamp
Final Approach
Butch Cassidy: Alright. I'll jump first.
Sundance Kid: No.
Butch Cassidy: Then you jump first.
Sundance Kid: No, I said.
Butch Cassidy: What's the matter with you?
Sundance Kid: I can't swim.
Butch Cassidy: Are you crazy? The fall will probably kill you.
Sundance Kid: Oh, ****...
flykelley
Pre-takeoff checklist
Have I crossed Lake Michigan in a single, yes about 6 times now and Lake Erie about four times. I have done both of them in the last two days. Do I like it, not my favorite thing to do but compared to the other choice's I will fly over the lake's. With that said in the summer time flying over Lake Michigan isn't a real big deal. The USGD has recuse copters on both sides of the Lake and can be up and flying in as little as ten minutes. They Launch from Muskegon and of course there is a Rescue Boat in Grand Haven on the Michigan side. On the Wis side I think they launch from Milwaukee. If you get a mayday call off right away the USCG should have a copter in the air by the time you hit the water. If you have a GPS give them a Lat, Lon for your ditching area. A PLB is a must for sure as well as a life vest. Last year a C152 went down in Lake Erie and the guy was in the water for close to 24 hrs and lived to tell about it. Its all about managing risk when we fly.
Mike
Mike
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gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
But at least they'd be able to find the body.
I've flown over the lake several times in a single but every time I crossed in a retract (good glide performance) at one of two narrow points with enough altitude to reach the shore from the middle. That said, as long as you don't run out of fuel (believe it or not, one of the more recent LM deaths involved someone who did just that) the chances of losing an engine during the 10-15 minutes of "no mans land" crossing are pretty slim. Unfortunately the consequences are very high and your chances for survival if you do go down in the lake are nearly as slim. In simple terms it's almost a sure bet but you're betting with your life.
Let'sgoflying!
Touchdown! Greaser!
Let'sgoflying!
Touchdown! Greaser!
Re: would you fly across Lake MI in a 172 (70nm)
That was only 2 that failed - for those two, there were hundreds or thousands that had no problem Ben!
Same as overland flying, I can post a dozen wrecks but for that dozen, thousands arrived without calamity.
That was only 2 that failed - for those two, there were hundreds or thousands that had no problem Ben!
Same as overland flying, I can post a dozen wrecks but for that dozen, thousands arrived without calamity.
matthammer
Pre-takeoff checklist
I agree with this. I recently read about a ditching incident where the pilot accidentally inflated the raft INSIDE the airplane.
As far as flying across lake MI goes... I would. In a twin.
I don't like being outside gliding range of land for any significant length of time when I'm flying single-engine.
alaskaflyer
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I agree with this. I recently read about a ditching incident where the pilot accidentally inflated the raft INSIDE the airplane.
As far as flying across lake MI goes... I would. In a twin.
For a Cessna you can attach it to a wing strut, like snowshoes!
Witmo
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Tim
Unless you're flying a Harrier jump jet. During or around the time of the Falkland war, a British jump jet got lost over water and landed on the deck of a cargo ship before running out of fuel. He was a hero for about a day at least until the cargo ship crew discovered they could claim salvage rights to the airplane which the Royal Navy was obliged to pay to retrieve it. It was a nice chunk of bonus change for the crew (several million pounds?) if I recall.
kevin7500
Pre-takeoff checklist
Back in the summer of 2010 we were going to fly from Grand Rapids, Michigan to the Bahamas. But, after cruising along for over 1,000NM we arrived at West Palm Beach, Florida. Holy cow....WATER! We quickly turned around and retreated back the way we had come. We just couldn't justify the risk involved in flying 50NM without solid, uneven, tree covered terrain below us to crash into should the engine suddenly quite producing power.
Just kidding.
Apparently, one thing that you don't have to worry about when flying over the lake is running into other airplanes! I really do not understand the fear that pilots feel when discussing crossing large bodies of water. Especially from pilots who, over hundreds or thousands of hours of flying, have never experienced an engine failure.
I encourage everyone to read NTSB reports. Take a serious look at the causes of crashes. Mechanical failure in flight is insignificant compared to stupidity. Fearing an engine failure while passing over water is, well, irrational.
Just kidding.
Apparently, one thing that you don't have to worry about when flying over the lake is running into other airplanes! I really do not understand the fear that pilots feel when discussing crossing large bodies of water. Especially from pilots who, over hundreds or thousands of hours of flying, have never experienced an engine failure.
I encourage everyone to read NTSB reports. Take a serious look at the causes of crashes. Mechanical failure in flight is insignificant compared to stupidity. Fearing an engine failure while passing over water is, well, irrational.
spiderweb
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Ben
Re: would you fly across Lake MI in a 172 (70nm)
Oh I know. It is just that although the risk is low, if it does happen you have very few options, even if you make a good ditching.
Oh I know. It is just that although the risk is low, if it does happen you have very few options, even if you make a good ditching.
NoHeat
En-Route
Stupidity can happen over a large lake, can't it?
Fatal accidents aren't usually due to just one thing. There's usually a chain of decisions and events involved. Deciding to fly over a lake can be one of them.
NoHeat
En-Route
I don't think it is irrational to fear the fatal outcomes of these two accidents:
NTSB report: Fatal ditching, Lake Michigan, July 2010
NTSB report: Fatal ditching, Lake Michigan, July 2006
Both involved loss of engine power. So it does happen, and it kills.
BTW, I met a pipeline patrol pilot from Michigan who regularly flies a C-182 back and forth to points around here, on the other side of Lake Michigan. He does not fly over the lake. Instead, he takes the land route, stopping for fuel in Kankakee, south of Chicago. There are lots of nice farms and county roads for off-field landings.
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CMTowner
Line Up and Wait
Would I do it at 4500', maybe not. If I were at 9k - 10k feet, I wouldn't think twice about it, I'd go.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
The surface water temp mostly depends on the wind in the summer. If it's been calm for a day it can get well above 60F but when the wind stirs things up it will drop back to the low 50s quickly.
gismo
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Actually you can cross LM and remain within 25nm of land at several places.
gismo
Touchdown! Greaser!
Me either. I've made many crossings from north of GRB to the TVC area and always look for ships and boats when I can see the water. Seems to me I see none within gliding distance at least 3 out of 4 crossings. Very few pleasure craft venture more than a few miles from shore.
Let'sgoflying!
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Let'sgoflying!
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That's funny right there,,, and very true too... After all.. sharks have to eat too.
Let'sgoflying!
Touchdown! Greaser!
besides my airplane is all-balsa; floats!That's funny right there,,, and very true too... After all.. sharks have to eat too.
gprellwitz
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You're right, sorry. And that tool Dave T. posted helps find them!
flykelley
Pre-takeoff checklist
Here is the thing about Michigan, if you are going anywhere but south you have two choice's go around the lake or fly over it. Every other direction you have to fly over water. Like I said its all about managing risk. Have I flown to Oshkosh going around the Lake, yes one time. Took twice as long, lots of planes in the vfr corridor along Chicago so we were still over water and had to keep eyes open for all the other VFR traffic. IMOP we were at a lot more risk flying the Lake shore that trip than flying over the water. Its just one of the things about Michigan it surrounded by water on three sides.
Mike
Mike
roncachamp
Final Approach
Yes, going around Lake Michigan to the north requires flying over water, but not a lot of it.
rainsux
Line Up and Wait
> About everywhere in the world there are boats in the waters you are flying
Lake Michigan? Lake Huron? Lake Superior? Not so much. A much better
approximation is "damn few."
>> in the summer time during the trip to Oshkosh the lake is warm as well.
USCG considers Lake Michigan a cold-water lake 12 months/year.
>>> It would probably take SAR assets two hours to get to the scene,
Perhaps longer. It all depends upon asset/crew availability and where they
are launching from. The USCG H65's are rather short-legged. If they transit
90 minutes, they're going to be stopping for fuel before beginning to
search.
Then there is the matter of "the scene." They go to the search datum.
Then they begin their search. Hopefully the search data and "the scene"
of the catastrophe are the same. Sometimes, not.
>>>> Without a plb a floating person is going to be very hard to spot
Absolutely true. For gawd sakes, have items on your person that make it
EASIER to spot you. Last summer two [2] recreational boats witnessed a
C206 ditch. 3:5 got out in vests. The boats could only find one. The
two others in vests, died in their vests, in July, in Lake Michigan, ~8 miles
offshore.
>>>>> he USGD has recuse copters on both sides of the Lake
Incorrect. The USCG Air Stations are Detroit & Traverse City. Those USCG
hangars at Muskegon & Chicago do not have aircraft based there. They
are occasionally staffed (by Detroit & Traverse City crews).
>>>>>> and can be up and flying in as little as ten minutes
Incorrect, again.
From the time the call arrives to the time a USCG helo launches is 30-45
minutes ... unless they've already got an asset in the area. Slim chance,
fat chance - both about the same.
>>>>>>> I"ll take 60F water over fire.
I've done both - in training scenarios. My choice is neither. Please try
spending 2 hours in 60F water. Really.
If you're gonna fly over the Great Lakes, PUHLEEZE equip yourself to spend
24+ hours in the water. PUHLEEZE have gear that makes it easier to spot
you. A rescue streamer for daytime ops is good. Chem lights or a
flashlight are fireworks when seen on NVGs. A PLB is another VERY wise
addition as it takes the "search" out of Search & Rescue.
Lake Michigan? Lake Huron? Lake Superior? Not so much. A much better
approximation is "damn few."
>> in the summer time during the trip to Oshkosh the lake is warm as well.
USCG considers Lake Michigan a cold-water lake 12 months/year.
>>> It would probably take SAR assets two hours to get to the scene,
Perhaps longer. It all depends upon asset/crew availability and where they
are launching from. The USCG H65's are rather short-legged. If they transit
90 minutes, they're going to be stopping for fuel before beginning to
search.
Then there is the matter of "the scene." They go to the search datum.
Then they begin their search. Hopefully the search data and "the scene"
of the catastrophe are the same. Sometimes, not.
>>>> Without a plb a floating person is going to be very hard to spot
Absolutely true. For gawd sakes, have items on your person that make it
EASIER to spot you. Last summer two [2] recreational boats witnessed a
C206 ditch. 3:5 got out in vests. The boats could only find one. The
two others in vests, died in their vests, in July, in Lake Michigan, ~8 miles
offshore.
>>>>> he USGD has recuse copters on both sides of the Lake
Incorrect. The USCG Air Stations are Detroit & Traverse City. Those USCG
hangars at Muskegon & Chicago do not have aircraft based there. They
are occasionally staffed (by Detroit & Traverse City crews).
>>>>>> and can be up and flying in as little as ten minutes
Incorrect, again.
From the time the call arrives to the time a USCG helo launches is 30-45
minutes ... unless they've already got an asset in the area. Slim chance,
fat chance - both about the same.
>>>>>>> I"ll take 60F water over fire.
I've done both - in training scenarios. My choice is neither. Please try
spending 2 hours in 60F water. Really.
If you're gonna fly over the Great Lakes, PUHLEEZE equip yourself to spend
24+ hours in the water. PUHLEEZE have gear that makes it easier to spot
you. A rescue streamer for daytime ops is good. Chem lights or a
flashlight are fireworks when seen on NVGs. A PLB is another VERY wise
addition as it takes the "search" out of Search & Rescue.
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flykelley
Pre-takeoff checklist
They do base Rescue copters there in Muskegon in the summer time from Memorial Day to Labor Day, my brother was station there for 4 years and still hangs around the station. If they launch from Air Station Traverse City its a much longer time frame. The helicopters at Muskegon are from TC in the summer time.
Straight from the USGC website:
District Nine Units
Air Stations Cutters Marine Safety Units Sectors Stations
Air Stations
Detroit, Michigan
Traverse City, Michigan
Air Facility (AIRFAC)
Muskegon, Michigan
Waukegan, Illinois
Mike
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rainsux
Line Up and Wait
Mike,
I fly SAR for USCG AUXAIR, in Michigan. Helos are not "based" at Muskegon
or Chicago. Best case, they are TDY or AOG.
If you are planning to live; then your survival plan needs to allow for helos
coming from TVC or MTC. Both are lengthy transits in a H65.
I'm based at PTK in H15. Stop by sometime ...
I fly SAR for USCG AUXAIR, in Michigan. Helos are not "based" at Muskegon
or Chicago. Best case, they are TDY or AOG.
If you are planning to live; then your survival plan needs to allow for helos
coming from TVC or MTC. Both are lengthy transits in a H65.
I'm based at PTK in H15. Stop by sometime ...
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flykelley
Pre-takeoff checklist
Just got a new hanger. M32 also can be found at Lank O Lakes hangers in west side of Uniform row. I do have to agree that it can be a long wait, this time of year it doesn't matter you won't make it. Myself Im not thrilled with the idea of going down in the big lake, summer time you have a fighting chance if you have a PLB. What are the odds in truth not real good but I still will cross the lake.
Mike
Garthur
Pre-takeoff checklist
I just found this forum. This is a test to see if I can post.
I have flown over Lake MI 3 times in the last 25 years in a 172. I climb above 10k for the crossing. I have also flown from FT Meyers Florida to Key West, which is a greater distance over water, but at least you can ditch without freezing to death.
I have flown over Lake MI 3 times in the last 25 years in a 172. I climb above 10k for the crossing. I have also flown from FT Meyers Florida to Key West, which is a greater distance over water, but at least you can ditch without freezing to death.
I just found this forum. This is a test to see if I can post.
I have flown over Lake MI 3 times in the last 25 years in a 172. I climb above 10k for the crossing. I have also flown from FT Meyers Florida to Key West, which is a greater distance over water, but at least you can ditch without freezing to death.
Yup... and you can find a sandbar to crash on thats 6" deep..
Welcome to POA too...
Hello Garthur! Looks like you posted just fine!I just found this forum. This is a test to see if I can post.
I have flown over Lake MI 3 times in the last 25 years in a 172. I climb above 10k for the crossing. I have also flown from FT Meyers Florida to Key West, which is a greater distance over water, but at least you can ditch without freezing to death.
Welcome to the POA!
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Day VMC, Day IMC, Night VMC, Night IMC. January - December, solo, with passengers, with GPS, without GPS, with life jackets, without life jackets, 1500' off the surface, 12,000' off the surface. Done em all in SEL, and will continue to do it. If I wanted to go around, I would drive.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
I would without hesitation. I know the risk and accept it. Truth be told there are plenty of times where I'm flying in a single where an engine failure would result in a pretty high chance of being killed. Going missed on an ILS at night because you never saw the lights and it's solid higher then you can climb would be a bad time to lose one.
Plenty of airplanes where an engine failure on final would be pretty bad, like coming over a city or industrial area on an ILS.
Lake is no different.
Plenty of airplanes where an engine failure on final would be pretty bad, like coming over a city or industrial area on an ILS.
Lake is no different.