Would you do this in a 172 (water)?

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mikegreen

Pre-takeoff checklist
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mike g.
I often look up the planes I rent..I am renting 6349J tomorrow, and noticed this was the last flight for it.

Ballsy in a single engine rental training plane? Look at the altitude and speed graph - were they doing stalls over the water?


2010-09-08_1925.png

http://screencast.com/t/YzM5NGJiMjE

Regards,

Mike
 
In July the water temps are in the 80's with CLE then then the Islands probably always in gliding distance of pleasure boats or dry land.

You have to get the CLE Bravo and the restricted area between the Isalnds and Toledo. I would have probably done that at 6500 for a little more cushion
 
I would not worry about the speed graph spikes.. the data collection rate is sporadic and is based on computed ground speed from radar track over time.. average of better than 75 knts in most cases.

The altitude spikes (drops) do not correlate to a ground speed decrease.. the speed increase near the end of the flight does correlate to his altitude change from 4000 to 3000. Altitude is based on reported Mode C.

I do not see how you can correlate stalls over water based on the data presented.
(From someone who looks at aircraft Time/Space/Position/Information on a daily basis.)
 
RMCN172RG said:
In July the water temps are in the 80's with CLE then then the Islands probably always in gliding distance of pleasure boats or dry land.
Click to expand...


Lake Erie isn't all that deep and before the Zebra mussels cleaned up the Lake you could walk on top of the water!! :rolleyes2:
 
mikegreen said:
I often look up the planes I rent..I am renting 6349J tomorrow, and noticed this was the last flight for it.

Ballsy in a single engine rental training plane? Look at the altitude and speed graph - were they doing stalls over the water?
Click to expand...

So what if they were? I did most of the airwork for my PPL over the Pacific.
 
I doubt they were doing any stalls.

I have flown over Lake Erie in a rental single before, but a PA-28 rather than a 172. I'd do it again - I really don't consider it to be that big a deal.

Flying over the Gulf of Mexico in a 172? Well... probably not.
 
I'd have stayed a bit closer to the shore, especially in a rental. Yeah, the islands are there, but only for a bit, they're heavily forested with short strips. But if he was on flight aware I assume he had limited choice in routing. I don't know the water temperature out there, and swimming a mile or two after a crash in cold water sounds like a real drag to me.
 
RMCN172RG said:
In July the water temps are in the 80's with CLE then then the Islands probably always in gliding distance of pleasure boats or dry land.

You have to get the CLE Bravo and the restricted area between the Isalnds and Toledo. I would have probably done that at 6500 for a little more cushion
Click to expand...

At the end of that flight he couldn't be any higer, without cleararance into Detroit's Class B (or going over top).
 
I personally wouldn't have done that. It wouldn't have added but a few minutes to the flight to stay near the shore. I'm not too worried about surviving the actual ditching - been there, done that - but hanging out in the water after ditching could be fatal unless you're prepared for it. Why not just fly along the edge?
 
Missa said:
At the end of that flight he couldn't be any higer, without cleararance into Detroit's Class B (or going over top).
Click to expand...

Besides working around Cleveland, like leaving Burke IFR, they will route you right out into the Lake. On my first return from there I filed BKL - DJB (Dryer West of Cleveland) - PHN.

After takeoff immediate right turn to 300 out into the middle of the Lake and altitude at 3000 below the Bravo. Once clear of the Bravo they offered on course but I amended to direct PHN and just headed home.
 
I just crossed lake Michigan this weekend at no higher than 2500' MSL flying this route.
 
PittsDriver said:
I personally wouldn't have done that. It wouldn't have added but a few minutes to the flight to stay near the shore. I'm not too worried about surviving the actual ditching - been there, done that - but hanging out in the water after ditching could be fatal unless you're prepared for it. Why not just fly along the edge?
Click to expand...

Staying over shore near the Cleveland class B would require being below 1900 ft for part of it or getting Bravo clearance, which they may or may not want to do for you along the shore, I'm not familiar with them.

Surviving a crash over the woods between Erie, PA and Williamsport seems rather unlikely, too. Yet nobody questions whether or not flying over that area in a single is acceptable, nor do people complain about flying singles around the Rockies, which is far more treacherous in my opinion.

I won't say there aren't risks associated with over-water flight, but people seem to discount the risks of over-land flight.
 
Pretty nice flying for an almost two hundred mile trip. Distance 189sm, they did it in 190sm. Very straight track for such a long leg. They seem a little low for so much water, but then, what was the ceiling? The pilot was either very good or had an excellent auto pilot.

I flew my plane up to LA with a friend a few months ago, a little over a hundred miles. I looked at my track and it looks like I tied one on before I left. Nevertheless, I like a whole lot more altitude when over large cities or water. There is a rule about that, being able to land without endangering persons or property.

John
 
Yep. I got routed North and at a low altitude (for what seemed like about 10 minutes) out of Burke during a night IFR departure. That sucked. I kept asking for a turn to the West, and they kept me going North.



RMCN172RG said:
Besides working around Cleveland, like leaving Burke IFR, they will route you right out into the Lake.
Click to expand...
 
mikegreen said:
I often look up the planes I rent..I am renting 6349J tomorrow, and noticed this was the last flight for it.

Ballsy in a single engine rental training plane? Look at the altitude and speed graph - were they doing stalls over the water?
Click to expand...

I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in the altitude/speed, as others have said. Also, remember that this is *ground* speed, not airspeed. I've had a groundspeed of 65 knots in the 182 when I had a true airspeed of 133 knots.

RMCN172RG said:
In July the water temps are in the 80's with CLE then then the Islands probably always in gliding distance of pleasure boats or dry land.
Click to expand...

Wow - I had no idea it got that warm. It is the southernmost and shallowest of the Great Lakes, but Lake Michigan doesn't get that warm. On July 24th, Lake Erie at Buffalo was at 75 degrees (see http://www.erh.noaa.gov/buf/laketemps/LakeTempsJul.php). On that same day, I actually flew over Lake Michigan (at 13,500 feet) and the temp was about 64.

Would I do that in your average rental 172? Probably not. If it were a plane that I had flown a lot, maybe. Having a life jacket aboard helps - Yes, I can swim just fine, if I'm not injured. I broke a few ribs a few years ago in a jet-ski accident and was damn glad I was wearing a life jacket as I had a lot of trouble moving at all at first.

Each pilot is willing to take different risks. For me personally, the Great Lakes thing got personal when one of the planes I've flown went into Lake Michigan a few years ago. The pilot lived through the ditching unscathed, but did not survive the cold water. After thinking about it long and hard, I decided that a cold bath is not how I want to die. I have only crossed the lake in a single at or above 12,000 feet, squawking and talking, during the late summer, in a plane I know intimately. EdFred went across last week at a much lower altitude, and goes across much more frequently than I. Pick your own poison, I guess.
 
I've flown to Put-in Bay across Lake St Clair and Lake Erie in a rental Skyhawk. I won't do it at low altitude -- over 6000 is my minimum for that, and in the past I've stayed high until I was pretty close to my destination. I've never crossed Lake Michigan in a rental, but have in a friend's Cardinal and now in mine, though only the eastern half of the lake on the way to SJX. I did that in a slow descent from 6500. Crossing all the way my preferred route would be LDM-MWC and at 10,000 or above -- I wouldn't be comfortable with a low altitude crossing. But yes I will cross the lakes. Having the ability to jump those puddles is one of the reasons I love flying around the Great Lakes, going around would sort of defeat the purpose. But yes I have (and wear) a life jacket when I'm crossing open water, and I try to minimise my time out of gliding distance of shore. I'd avoid a long route down the long diameter of the lake, but I suppose if I got routed out there and needed to be IFR (and was rated and current), I'd grit my teeth and do it. Preferably in a well-maintained non-rental airplane.

As someone said, we all have our personal tolerance of risk. For myself, though I don't want to die that way, if it happens during the short time I'm out of gliding distance, then it's my time. Passengers are another matter. I used to take non-pilots to Put-in Bay but not any more, not unless I'm sure that they understand and are okay with the knowledge of what is likely to happen if we have to ditch. I definitely do things alone that I wouldn't do with non-pilot pax.

On my trip to MCD two weeks ago I kept asking myself whether I could make it to shore if the fan quit, and starting around the midpoint on the way over from Cheboygan (at 3000 MSL), I'm sure I wouldn't have. Then I flew the GPS 26 approach with procedure turn to test out my sluggish-turning A/P, and for at least 5 minutes I would have been in the cold drink if I'd lost the engine. I'm not sure how pilots who are averse to water crossings justify making this trip? Or do you stay high and then dive close to the island? What about on takeoff? Although there is a fair amount of boat traffic out there in the Straits during the summer, there are plenty of spots where you might have to sit there for 15-30 minutes or so before someone actually reached you and pulled you out.
 
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Ed, where you were "X" is very close to where the 206 from Alma, MI, lost power and turned back.....
 
Looks like if he just follows near the shore line under the Bravo, it would add only 7 miles, from 165nm to 172nm.
 
azure said:
I've never crossed Lake Michigan in a rental, but have in a friend's Cardinal and now in mine, though only the eastern half of the lake on the way to SJX. I did that in a slow descent from 6500. Crossing all the way my preferred route would be LDM-MWC and at 10,000 or above -- I wouldn't be comfortable with a low altitude crossing.
Click to expand...

I assume you meant LDM-MTW (Manitowoc)?

You have a Cardinal RG, right? What's your glide ratio? I'm still exposed for a couple minutes in the 182 at 13,500 on that route. I bet you could probably glide to shore from the middle in a 177RG at 13,500. 10,000 might be optimistic, though.

I'm really looking forward to testing the glide performance of the Diamond Star. :yes:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I assume you meant LDM-MTW (Manitowoc)?
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Yep, I was too lazy to check the chart. BTW if I was crossing further north I would go over SJX at 7000 or above.

You have a Cardinal RG, right? What's your glide ratio? I'm still exposed for a couple minutes in the 182 at 13,500 on that route. I bet you could probably glide to shore from the middle in a 177RG at 13,500. 10,000 might be optimistic, though.
Click to expand...
Oh, I KNOW I'm exposed for a few minutes... I think I calculated 10 for that crossing a few years ago at 10,500, assuming a 130 kt ground speed (no wind). But without O2 I'm really not comfortable going much higher and it would take a long time to get above 12,000 anyway in that bird. No, as I said, I try to minimise my exposure but I'm willing to accept a certain amount of it.

Out of my 650 hours I've spent all told maybe 1 or 1.5 out of glide distance. I've spent more than that over the woods of northern lower MI where an engine out would likely be fatal too, and I have about 50 hours at night. I keep my airplane as well maintained as I can and I work hard at making sure I don't go down because of fuel exhaustion, VFR into IMC, stall/spin in the pattern and all the other stupid mistakes that kill a lot more pilots than mechanical failure at the wrong time. I don't spend a large fraction of my flying time over hostile terrain or water but if engine failure is going to get me there, I can "live" with that.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Staying over shore near the Cleveland class B would require being below 1900 ft for part of it or getting Bravo clearance, which they may or may not want to do for you along the shore, I'm not familiar with them.
Click to expand...

Cleveland approach doesn't like transitions too close to the shoreline near the Bravo because that's one of the major approaches into Hopkins. Every time I've ever been westbound out of LNN or CGF, I'm pushed north of the 1900 ring and given at or below 3000-- even if they verbally clear me into the Bravo.

That being said, I've always found Burke's tower fairly easy to work with, so I guess if you wanted to you could avoid talking to Cleveland Approach, transition Burke's Delta, then duck under the 1900 ring. That would give you a pretty amazing view of the city.
 
I think I'm gonna do this.

Already designing the tanks.
 
does the high calorie food bars make you more yummy for the sharks?
 
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