Would anyone happen to know anything about Multi-Segment ETOPS?

Terry_zhang

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Terry_zhang
I have a few questions regarding my understanding of Multi-Segment ETOPS in flight planning.

First, I’m wondering if a scenario counts as Multi-Segment ETOPS where the departure and arrival airports are both 180-minute ETOPS compliant, but there are no alternate airports available in between the two points.

This will result in two entry points and two exit points for the ETOPS segments.

Secondly, I’m also wondering about the operational scenarios where a multi-segment ETOPS flight plan would be utilized.

I would really appreciate anyone's responses, thanks a lot.
 
"Would anyone happen to know anything about Multi-Segment ETOPS?"

I'm guessing, yes. You've asked some specific questions relevant to commercial operations--if you don't mind my asking, what, exactly, are you up to?
 
I fly multi ETOPS ETPs …. it can get bit complicated as there are a few requirements, but I think you are asking why more than one point is needed.

Here’s the deal…normally, under icao and other CAA regs, a twin engine must be within 60 min of a suitable landing field….this doesn’t have to be just over ocean, but anywhere, so flying over, say Africa, where airports are scarce, you would have to flight plan to always be within 1 hours flight time, which is obviously inefficient….this rule doesn’t apply to 3 or four engine aircraft , just 2.

ETOPS simply allows you to fly more than the standard 60 minutes at single engine speed and altitudes (a few other criteria such as if using anti ice performance and such). The normal 180 minute ETOPS route across Atlantic may have 3 points, each being within 180 min flight time of a different airport…..as you leave one point, you are closer to next ETOPS alternate airport, then next point you are closer to next alternate , and so on. You officially leave ETOPS requirements when within 60 min flight time from a suitable airport , such as Shannon Ireland when you approach Europe…..after that, you are always within in 60 min of some airport and back to normal rules and no longer need ETOPS extension.

However, you are still planned required to land with min fuel reserves. These reserves are not only based on min landing quantity, such as a 45 minute IFR reserves we use in GA, but plus a reserve based on duration of flight time (let’s call this enroute reserve fuel… this can be significantly more than the domestic reserves…. The longer the flight, the more landing fuel reserves required )….

To avoid kicking off revenue (passengers and cargo), airlines will dispatch the flight to an airport closer than destination airport. This allows them to have lower enroute fuel reserves (=more payload). A very simplified example may be flight London to LAX is released by dispatcher with capt’s concurrence from London to JFK. JFK is now called a re-release point/way point. Approaching land and VOR coverage, you are Now within ground nav aid coverage or other outside method of affirming position rest of flight. As such, you can essentially reset flight plan to use lower domestic fuel reserves as if flight is now JFK to LAX. More specifically, your re release point will note a minimum fuel in tanks required to continue to LAX. If you don’t have that min fuel, you would be required to land at jfk and refuel; if you do have at least that min fuel, you carry on to LAX now using domestic fuel rules. you are now not required to carry the enroute reserves going forward.

It’s a weird concept, but look at it this way…. The re-release flight plans allows airline to use a flight plan that requires less fuel (weight) on board by resetting the requirements from the higher enroute fuel reserves for portion over land, once over or close to land, to lower domestic fuel requirements without enroute reserves, , such as destination to alternate +45 min.

When ever you have a question why airlines do something, the answer is almost always money. All airlines fly the same plane models with same performance , pay same for fuel, landing fees, ECT.. and margins are thin. So re-release allows them greater payload.

Hope this helpful

BTW, In this Atlantic example, you would be going more north to remain within 180 min to an airport, it if coming from a southern departure as Miami and wanting a more direct route which leaves you further south more than 180 min for alternates..so 180 min isn’t enough and may flight plan for longer ETOPS depending on airline specs and airplane….the airplane I fly has certs up to 330 mins. So, airlines may plan with a greater than 180 mins as option.
 
I fly multi ETOPS ETPs …. it can get bit complicated as there are a few requirements, but I think you are asking why more than one point is needed.

Here’s the deal…normally, under icao and other CAA regs, a twin engine must be within 60 min of a suitable landing field….this doesn’t have to be just over ocean, but anywhere, so flying over, say Africa, where airports are scarce, you would have to flight plan to always be within 1 hours flight time, which is obviously inefficient….this rule doesn’t apply to 3 or four engine aircraft , just 2.

ETOPS simply allows you to fly more than the standard 60 minutes at single engine speed and altitudes (a few other criteria such as if using anti ice performance and such). The normal 180 minute ETOPS route across Atlantic may have 3 points, each being within 180 min flight time of a different airport…..as you leave one point, you are closer to next ETOPS alternate airport, then next point you are closer to next alternate , and so on. You officially leave ETOPS requirements when within 60 min flight time from a suitable airport , such as Shannon Ireland when you approach Europe…..after that, you are always within in 60 min of some airport and back to normal rules and no longer need ETOPS extension.

However, you are still planned required to land with min fuel reserves. These reserves are not only based on min landing quantity, such as a 45 minute IFR reserves we use in GA, but plus a reserve based on duration of flight time (let’s call this enroute reserve fuel… this can be significantly more than the domestic reserves…. The longer the flight, the more landing fuel reserves required )….

To avoid kicking off revenue (passengers and cargo), airlines will dispatch the flight to an airport closer than destination airport. This allows them to have lower enroute fuel reserves (=more payload). A very simplified example may be flight London to LAX is released by dispatcher with capt’s concurrence from London to JFK. JFK is now called a re-release point/way point. Approaching land and VOR coverage, you are Now within ground nav aid coverage or other outside method of affirming position rest of flight. As such, you can essentially reset flight plan to use lower domestic fuel reserves as if flight is now JFK to LAX. More specifically, your re release point will note a minimum fuel in tanks required to continue to LAX. If you don’t have that min fuel, you would be required to land at jfk and refuel; if you do have at least that min fuel, you carry on to LAX now using domestic fuel rules. you are now not required to carry the enroute reserves going forward.

It’s a weird concept, but look at it this way…. The re-release flight plans allows airline to use a flight plan that requires less fuel (weight) on board by resetting the requirements from the higher enroute fuel reserves for portion over land, once over or close to land, to lower domestic fuel requirements without enroute reserves, , such as destination to alternate +45 min.

When ever you have a question why airlines do something, the answer is almost always money. All airlines fly the same plane models with same performance , pay same for fuel, landing fees, ECT.. and margins are thin. So re-release allows them greater payload.

Hope this helpful

BTW, In this Atlantic example, you would be going more north to remain within 180 min to an airport, it if coming from a southern departure as Miami and wanting a more direct route which leaves you further south more than 180 min for alternates..so 180 min isn’t enough and may flight plan for longer ETOPS depending on airline specs and airplane….the airplane I fly has certs up to 330 mins. So, airlines may plan with a greater than 180 mins as option.
I think you're describing a re-dispatch flight plan and the OP is asking about a flight with multiple ETOPS entry and exit points.
 
I have a few questions regarding my understanding of Multi-Segment ETOPS in flight planning.

First, I’m wondering if a scenario counts as Multi-Segment ETOPS where the departure and arrival airports are both 180-minute ETOPS compliant, but there are no alternate airports available in between the two points.

This will result in two entry points and two exit points for the ETOPS segments.

Secondly, I’m also wondering about the operational scenarios where a multi-segment ETOPS flight plan would be utilized.

I would really appreciate anyone's responses, thanks a lot.
Wish I could help but I mostly layover in Cleveland. Not much need for ETOPS
 
I have a few questions regarding my understanding of Multi-Segment ETOPS in flight planning.

First, I’m wondering if a scenario counts as Multi-Segment ETOPS where the departure and arrival airports are both 180-minute ETOPS compliant, but there are no alternate airports available in between the two points.

This will result in two entry points and two exit points for the ETOPS segments.

Secondly, I’m also wondering about the operational scenarios where a multi-segment ETOPS flight plan would be utilized.

I would really appreciate anyone's responses, thanks a lot.

Can you give us an example. I might see a need if going across Atlantic or Pacific from one hemisphere to the other.
 
I think you're describing a re-dispatch flight plan and the OP is asking about a flight with multiple ETOPS entry and exit points.
my bad...but related as mentioned you leave etops once within 60min of an alternative....once you travel more than 60min away you reenter etops...your etops alternate would/could be same . etops airspace is not defined on a map, it's by flight plan. you will often exit and reenter etops during flight....etops just means you have more fuel and requirements. so only difference being if you say have iceland as an etops alternate your route will keep you within 180min.....but you will likely pass within 60 min of it on one side, and now within non etops distance....once you continue and approach the 60 min distance on other side and re-enter etops, you have to recheck you have minimum etops equipment working (mostly nav, com, and electric systems still working).. or return to iceland, or continue to destination and reroute to always remain within 60min of suitable airports, which is not always easy to do and may not have enough fuel....in that case you would arrange a fuel stop, typically in Scottland or ireland if going east

hope this better answers question
 
Ah yes, the old disappearing OP routine.

I don’t think he wanted a comprehensive explanation of ETOPS. FWIW, reading the original post left me wondering what, exactly, was meant by the term “segment.” The scenario he provided seems to describe a routine flight from, say, SFO to HNL, in which both departure and destination airports are used as ETOPS alternates, but there would be one entry and one exit point. If he returns to clarify his question, perhaps we can provide a specific answer. Most likely he has found it on his own.
 
Ah yes, the old disappearing OP routine.

I don’t think he wanted a comprehensive explanation of ETOPS. FWIW, reading the original post left me wondering what, exactly, was meant by the term “segment.” The scenario he provided seems to describe a routine flight from, say, SFO to HNL, in which both departure and destination airports are used as ETOPS alternates, but there would be one entry and one exit point. If he returns to clarify his question, perhaps we can provide a specific answer. Most likely he has found it on his own.
Like @AlphaPilotFlyer said in his above post, there are flights out there, say HKG to ORD where you'll have more than just the one long ETOPS segment that you would have from SFO to HNL. I've entered and exited ETOPS airspace three separate times on the same leg. Sometimes these segments can only be maybe 15 minutes in ETOPS airspace, but it's ETOPS airspace nonetheless.
 
"Would anyone happen to know anything about Multi-Segment ETOPS?"

I'm guessing, yes. You've asked some specific questions relevant to commercial operations--if you don't mind my asking, what, exactly, are you up to?
Apologies, I only just signed in and noticed the message.
I'm studying ICAO Doc.10085 EDTOM and FAA AC 120-42B Extended Operations. Both mention multi-segment ETOPS, and I'd like to know the calculation principles for related flight planning, as well as how the requirements apply to commercial operations.

My company operate commercial flight with no cargo operations involved.
 
I think you're describing a re-dispatch flight plan and the OP is asking about a flight with multiple
I fly multi ETOPS ETPs …. it can get bit complicated as there are a few requirements, but I think you are asking why more than one point is needed.

Here’s the deal…normally, under icao and other CAA regs, a twin engine must be within 60 min of a suitable landing field….this doesn’t have to be just over ocean, but anywhere, so flying over, say Africa, where airports are scarce, you would have to flight plan to always be within 1 hours flight time, which is obviously inefficient….this rule doesn’t apply to 3 or four engine aircraft , just 2.

ETOPS simply allows you to fly more than the standard 60 minutes at single engine speed and altitudes (a few other criteria such as if using anti ice performance and such). The normal 180 minute ETOPS route across Atlantic may have 3 points, each being within 180 min flight time of a different airport…..as you leave one point, you are closer to next ETOPS alternate airport, then next point you are closer to next alternate , and so on. You officially leave ETOPS requirements when within 60 min flight time from a suitable airport , such as Shannon Ireland when you approach Europe…..after that, you are always within in 60 min of some airport and back to normal rules and no longer need ETOPS extension.

However, you are still planned required to land with min fuel reserves. These reserves are not only based on min landing quantity, such as a 45 minute IFR reserves we use in GA, but plus a reserve based on duration of flight time (let’s call this enroute reserve fuel… this can be significantly more than the domestic reserves…. The longer the flight, the more landing fuel reserves required )….

To avoid kicking off revenue (passengers and cargo), airlines will dispatch the flight to an airport closer than destination airport. This allows them to have lower enroute fuel reserves (=more payload). A very simplified example may be flight London to LAX is released by dispatcher with capt’s concurrence from London to JFK. JFK is now called a re-release point/way point. Approaching land and VOR coverage, you are Now within ground nav aid coverage or other outside method of affirming position rest of flight. As such, you can essentially reset flight plan to use lower domestic fuel reserves as if flight is now JFK to LAX. More specifically, your re release point will note a minimum fuel in tanks required to continue to LAX. If you don’t have that min fuel, you would be required to land at jfk and refuel; if you do have at least that min fuel, you carry on to LAX now using domestic fuel rules. you are now not required to carry the enroute reserves going forward.

It’s a weird concept, but look at it this way…. The re-release flight plans allows airline to use a flight plan that requires less fuel (weight) on board by resetting the requirements from the higher enroute fuel reserves for portion over land, once over or close to land, to lower domestic fuel requirements without enroute reserves, , such as destination to alternate +45 min.

When ever you have a question why airlines do something, the answer is almost always money. All airlines fly the same plane models with same performance , pay same for fuel, landing fees, ECT.. and margins are thin. So re-release allows them greater payload.

Hope this helpful

BTW, In this Atlantic example, you would be going more north to remain within 180 min to an airport, it if coming from a southern departure as Miami and wanting a more direct route which leaves you further south more than 180 min for alternates..so 180 min isn’t enough and may flight plan for longer ETOPS depending on airline specs and airplane….the airplane I fly has certs up to 330 mins. So, airlines may plan with a greater than 180 mins as option.

ETOPS entry and exit points.
Thanks for your help. I've learned a lot, especially it refreshing my understanding, fuel policy management: Int'l to Domestic Flights,this changes can save more fuel.

The screenshot below illustrates the principle of multi-segment ETOPS. Initially, it can be understood that there can be many pairs of entry and exit points;
the screenshot shows two pairs, but this is just an application.

Revenue passenger operations – this method is rarely used, right?
1770008759821.png
 
Ah yes, the old disappearing OP routine.

I don’t think he wanted a comprehensive explanation of ETOPS. FWIW, reading the original post left me wondering what, exactly, was meant by the term “segment.” The scenario he provided seems to describe a routine flight from, say, SFO to HNL, in which both departure and destination airports are used as ETOPS alternates, but there would be one entry and one exit point. If he returns to clarify his question, perhaps we can provide a specific answer. Most likely he has found it on his own.
I would like to understand personal interpretations of these regulatory provisions, solely for study purposes. Secondly, for flight calculation engines in this context, what mathematical rules can be established to identify multi-segment ETOPS operations. Having reviewed the Jeppesen manuals, it appears that a threshold value is set, and if the value exceeds a specific figure (XX),In the image above, the flight segments within the airspace of GAN Airport can be configured. the operation is deemed a two-segment ETOPS one.
 
my bad...but related as mentioned you leave etops once within 60min of an alternative....once you travel more than 60min away you reenter etops...your etops alternate would/could be same . etops airspace is not defined on a map, it's by flight plan. you will often exit and reenter etops during flight....etops just means you have more fuel and requirements. so only difference being if you say have iceland as an etops alternate your route will keep you within 180min.....but you will likely pass within 60 min of it on one side, and now within non etops distance....once you continue and approach the 60 min distance on other side and re-enter etops, you have to recheck you have minimum etops equipment working (mostly nav, com, and electric systems still working).. or return to iceland, or continue to destination and reroute to always remain within 60min of suitable airports, which is not always easy to do and may not have enough fuel....in that case you would arrange a fuel stop, typically in Scottland or ireland if going east

hope this better answers question
my bad...but related as mentioned you leave etops once within 60min of an alternative....once you travel more than 60min away you reenter etops...your etops alternate would/could be same . etops airspace is not defined on a map, it's by flight plan. you will often exit and reenter etops during flight....etops just means you have more fuel and requirements. so only difference being if you say have iceland as an etops alternate your route will keep you within 180min.....but you will likely pass within 60 min of it on one side, and now within non etops distance....once you continue and approach the 60 min distance on other side and re-enter etops, you have to recheck you have minimum etops equipment working (mostly nav, com, and electric systems still working).. or return to iceland, or continue to destination and reroute to always remain within 60min of suitable airports, which is not always easy to do and may not have enough fuel....in that case you would arrange a fuel stop, typically in Scottland or ireland if going east

hope this better answers question
At this point, I think also need to account for depressurization and drift down in flight, as Iceland has a high terrain.

Sometimes I struggle with the order in which to consider various influencing factors; are there any approaches to facilitate decision-making or strategy formulation for this?
 
I'm studying ICAO Doc.10085 EDTOM and FAA AC 120-42B Extended Operations. Both mention multi-segment ETOPS, and I'd like to know the calculation principles for related flight planning, as well as how the requirements apply to commercial operations.

My company operate commercial flight with no cargo operations involved.
If your company is a certificated commercial operator, I strongly suggest that your company hire a qualified individual with experience in obtaining ETOPS approval and in conducting flight operations thereunder.
I would like to understand personal interpretations of these regulatory provisions...
Personal interpretations are irrelevant: The only person whose "interpretation" matters is the POI--or equivalent official--responsible for your company's operating certificate. Aside from that, there is nothing to be interpreted as ICAO 10085 and AC 120-42B are clear and comprehensive.

Lastly, with regard to your OP, in the scenario you provided the route must remain within the 180-minute ETOPS AOAs of the departure and arrival airports. Therefore, there would be only one ETOPS segment.
 
Sometimes I struggle with the order in which to consider various influencing factors; are there any approaches to facilitate decision-making or strategy formulation for

Good PIC question about other factors defining ETOPS routings. Typically, dispatcher and PIC will consider additional factors, such as drift down altitudes relating to terrain and , wx such as icing. For example, if drift down altitude is in icing conditions such as likely in North Atlantic, any anti ice performance degradation will be considered as well as if loss of engine will effect anti ice systems. High terrain such as Greenland could be higher than a drift down altitude preventing a straight shot to an alternate airport, ECT. Most airlines use flight planning software thy accounts for most of these factors. But as PIC you must make the final decision to accept ……

last year I diverted to green land after loss of generator and APU failure (which was our back up gens). Had considerable wx and icing conditions ahead and high terrain at green land….. significant icing conditions existed at and below or drift down altitude (we ran contingencies if we lost an engine in terms of altitudes and additional Gen electrical systems lost or effected) which was also below Greenland peaks and grid MORA, forcing me further south off track and prolonged flight in icing conditions. The aircraft sheds electrical loads with loss of gens, and had lost several things such as passenger stuff and some redundant systems including pitot and static heat for flight director and auto pilot so needed to stay out of clouds which was most limiting factor. You can see how we were getting boxed in and all the ETOPS planning became irrelevant.we stayed between layers during descent and expedited thru layers to curtail time in clouds and had to get lower to burn off more fuel to be below MTOW anyway. So turned around and 1.5 hours later touched down in Keflavik Iceland with 290 ish disgruntled passengers for the night….. flip side, enjoyed the impromptu layover and Drunken Rabbit Irish pub.

So to better answer your post, there’s a lot of flight planning with ETOPS but most is to be assured to meet legal requirements. There’s a reason they haven’t put monkeys in cockpits, yet, as you can’t flight plan or program for all contingencies.
 
Good PIC question about other factors defining ETOPS routings. Typically, dispatcher and PIC will consider additional factors, such as drift down altitudes relating to terrain and , wx such as icing. For example, if drift down altitude is in icing conditions such as likely in North Atlantic, any anti ice performance degradation will be considered as well as if loss of engine will effect anti ice systems. High terrain such as Greenland could be higher than a drift down altitude preventing a straight shot to an alternate airport, ECT. Most airlines use flight planning software thy accounts for most of these factors. But as PIC you must make the final decision to accept ……

last year I diverted to green land after loss of generator and APU failure (which was our back up gens). Had considerable wx and icing conditions ahead and high terrain at green land….. significant icing conditions existed at and below or drift down altitude (we ran contingencies if we lost an engine in terms of altitudes and additional Gen electrical systems lost or effected) which was also below Greenland peaks and grid MORA, forcing me further south off track and prolonged flight in icing conditions. The aircraft sheds electrical loads with loss of gens, and had lost several things such as passenger stuff and some redundant systems including pitot and static heat for flight director and auto pilot so needed to stay out of clouds which was most limiting factor. You can see how we were getting boxed in and all the ETOPS planning became irrelevant.we stayed between layers during descent and expedited thru layers to curtail time in clouds and had to get lower to burn off more fuel to be below MTOW anyway. So turned around and 1.5 hours later touched down in Keflavik Iceland with 290 ish disgruntled passengers for the night….. flip side, enjoyed the impromptu layover and Drunken Rabbit Irish pub.

So to better answer your post, there’s a lot of flight planning with ETOPS but most is to be assured to meet legal requirements. There’s a reason they haven’t put monkeys in cockpits, yet, as you can’t flight plan or program for all contingencies.
Hahaha, so decades have passed, why are there still people in the cockpit? I guess the ac is B787,right?
I used to work in a standard operations role, that's why I asked about this in the post.
Decision-making is truly a high-level skill,I once read a book called The Decision Book: 50 Models for Strategic Thinking ,perhaps this is sharing my thoughts.
 
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