Working on my high HP stuff..question for all.

[gemohler]

Greetings:

I have a total of about 145hrs of time logged so far, and have asked my CFI to work me into the C182 we have.

It has a STOL kit, and a nice new const-spd prop. Take off in short-field configuration like the space shuttle compared to a 172.


I comprehend the new features offered to me, and I am now comfortable with them (4.5hrs of dual time in this so far), but Im having a problem with the final C that my CFI wants before he signs me off...consistency.

His concern, is that as a club owned plane, that HIS students are not part of the population that on a painfully regular basis, is causing front gear or flap damage by not using the craft properly.


Using a very conservative procedure, I'll start a descent from 3500 about 23mi out from my pattern entry point, by pulling off 2" of MP, and then add 10d of flaps. Every 2min past that point while remaining at 3500', remove one more inch of MP. Working on slowing down at this point..adding time to my approach while simulating a 500fpm drop. **

At about the 10mi point, I start a true 500fpm descent in to my entry point (direct into KRHV from UTC). **


I can either slow down, or go down in this..not both.


The problem..noted at the ** points...

While I fine tune my actions in the heavier, faster plane..I dont keep a stable altitude as much as I should or im SURE after more time in it, will be able to easily do.

Because Im not doing that so well, I end up 1-2nm behind the plan, high and fast into final approach...and I end up at full flaps and idle RPM hoping to sink as fast as I can, and its costin me.


I could:
1) Start the descent planning a few miles sooner.
2) Be more aggressive in pulling out MP.



Im not against doing those, but Im asking the community what other acceptable tools I can pull out of the sack.

Make room before entering class D for some clearing turns would work..as it adds time/distance to the descent.

Crab the plane during descent to get down quicker..then get into level flight at pattern altitude to have more time/distance to slow down..




What other things?


I want to try to stay on the 'conservative' planning that my CFI has introduced me to, and I really think that my largest problem right now is maintaining steady LEVEL altitude..and im just adding to the total distance that my plan will take, and paying for it in final approach.

 

[jesse]

I think you're over thinking this. It's a 182 - it comes down fast. If I was at 3,500 feet I don't think I'd be worrying much about coming down yet in a normally aspirated Cessna 182 23 miles from the airport. I really don't think you need to drop flaps 23 miles from the airport at 3500 feet. It just creates drag and wastes fuel.

It is possible to make something harder than it needs to be by putting way too much thought towards it. It sounds to me like you just need some practice learning how to make it go where you want. More looking out the window and doing and less thinking about all those numbers.

Just my simple minded opinion.

 

[DC34ME]

Did your CFI tell you to drop 10d of flaps that far out? I know he just wants you to plan ahead, but draggin the plane that far is a waste as posted above by Jesse. It's a 182, it has plenty of drag already. Just drop the MP when you need to decrease airspeed while level in your pattern entry. To be ahead of the plane you need to think about what you will do, not necessarily do it then. Flaps in the approach environment are for increasing rate of descent without increasing airspeed.

 

[CJones]

Sounds like you're overthinking it - a lot.

When flying the 182RG, I wouldn't have any flaps in until mid-field downwind. It's all about energy management. Believe it or not, it is OK to gain airspeed in your descent from cruise to approach - as long as you stay within the a/c specs, it's OK to go fast. Especially in a 182, if you leave the power out and then level off, you WILL slow down.

If you're having trouble maintaining a 'steady' descent, make sure you are utilizing elevator trim effectively. 182 is a heavy airplane, and wise use of the trim can make your life much easier.

 

[COFlyBoy]

I'm with Jesse; You're way over-thinking this.

Determine your power setting for a 500fpm descent, clean, at normal cruise speed. Then use that. Start your descent far enough out so that you'll arrive at pattern alt when you arrive at the pattern. Shouldn't be any more difficult than that. I reduce 4-5 inches to get a good 500 fpm descent. (Cherokee 6)

As for clearing turns, I think you should do those if you are doing abrupt maneuvers. A 500 fpm descent at 130kts is not an abrupt maneuver.

Save your flaps for when you can actually see the airport; like in the pattern or on 3-mile final.

 

[taters]

Multiply your cruise altitude by 3 ...thats the distance to start down at 500-700 FPM. This profile should always leave you with some wiggle room.

As for the power setting. Ive found that pulling right on back to 18"/2300 or so and leaning to heat actually works better than the 1" per min method..Some needlessly have a cow at that IMO but it really does work great/reduce workload.

 

[gemohler]

*nods*

Its less of me thinking too hard about this, just during the insurance checkout in this thing..these are the 'very conservative' points of action that ive been shown, and im trying to stay within his..I dunno..envelope for the exercise of managing the get down & slow down planning, which IMHO, would be a great lead into future faster aircraft to train on.

The thread has been great, and im enjoying the forums as a whole, as well.

 

[TMetzinger]

I think you're being more gentle with the throttle than you need to be. Assuming they didn't hang a radial or turbocharged engine on that 182... don't be shy about pulling out 3 or 4 or 5 inches of MP to descend - in 182s with engine monitors I've NEVER seen excessive cooling rates even when going from cruise to 16" MP in a single pull.

The FAA calls for being at pattern altitude 10 NM from the field, which I think is a little early but certainly you should be at pattern altitude 5 NM from the field. If you're at 3500 (and let's assume that's 2500 feet above pattern altitude), then pull the power (18" is a good initial target) at about 12 NM, set up 5-700 fpm descent and you should hit 1000 feet at 5 NM. Then leave the power alone, pitch for level flight, and you should slow nicely. Then add the flaps at the same pattern points you did in the 172, and trim for airspeed and adjust power for rate of descent.

The thing you want to avoid is landing on or banging the nosewheel - and you do that by being smooth, and anticipating how nose-heavy a 182 is with only two folks up front. Good use of trim is your friend here, and you can put some ballast in the baggage compartment to move the CG back a little too. Don't be afraid to manage the descent rate with small and smooth power adjustments. If you're on speed you should pull the power to idle as you begin your flare and touch down on the mains smoothly, then gently lower the nose while you still have elevator authority.

When you've gotten to the point where that is consistent, you can start to expand the envelope a bit with power-off approaches where the throttle is at some low setting above idle and you are constantly slowing through the final and landing phase. This is not considered a stable approach so it shouldn't be a normal thing, but it's a good way to firmly establish the whole pitch/power/airspeed/vertical speed matrix for this airplane in your head.

 

[swamppilot]

Clay has it almost right. The multipier shouldbe 4 in a 182, however. You're doing approximately 2 miles per minute and you want to descend at approximately 500 FPM. Therefore 1,000 feet of altitude takes 2 minutes times the 2 miles per minute which equals 4. In an aircraft which cruises at approximately 180 knots, the multiplier would be 6. The 3 works fine in a turboprop (which has pressurization), just push it over to then barber poll and descend. If you want to keep the same airspeed, decrease the MP about 5 inches and you'll get the same 500 FPM.

 

[gemohler]

Clay has it almost right. The multipier shouldbe 4 in a 182, however. You're doing approximately 2 miles per minute and you want to descend at approximately 500 FPM. Therefore 1,000 feet of altitude takes 2 minutes times the 2 miles per minute which equals 4. In an aircraft which cruises at approximately 180 knots, the multiplier would be 6. The 3 works fine in a turboprop (which has pressurization), just push it over to then barber poll and descend. If you want to keep the same airspeed, decrease the MP about 5 inches and you'll get the same 500 FPM.

There's my 2 miles. Ive always been doing 3:1, not 4:1 on descent.


As I play that backwards, it fits into this "extremely conservative" method of using MP for a very slow..slowdown. It would pu my initial 2" pull from 23" back to about 21-22mi out at the cruise speed I can get to between CVH and RHV only going to 3500'.

 

[Mason]

I think you're being more gentle with the throttle than you need to be. Assuming they didn't hang a radial or turbocharged engine on that 182... don't be shy about pulling out 3 or 4 or 5 inches of MP to descend - in 182s with engine monitors I've NEVER seen excessive cooling rates even when going from cruise to 16" MP in a single pull.

Yup. Cowl flaps closed.

 

[EdFred]

I don't worry about how far out I am distance wise, I worry about how far out I am time wise. If I have to lose 8000' I'm going to start my descent 16-18 minutes out. Sometimes that might be 60 miles out, sometimes that might be 30 miles out. I also don't dirty the airframe until midfield downwind (or 1-1/2 mile final/base)

 

[gemohler]

Yes, my CFI has explained that im being way more gentle than this thing needs to be dealt with, but I do believe that he's training good future habits as I work up into other aircraft/etc.

He went on to explain about the various religions surrounding shock cooling/etc, which are not nearly as diverse as the turbo normalized religions out there on how to do things.

So..he trains to be extremely conservative, as to offend no specific religion I may run into in the future...almost a direct quote.

But that 4:1 descent planning, is where ive been falling behind as well.

 

[swamppilot]

GEMOHLER, pull off the 2 inches and push the nose over letting the speed build (if in reasonably smoothe air) trim for the 500 FPM. Watch the MP as you descend, you'll have to keep reducing it as you loose altitude. Also make sure you keep within speed limitations. If you have a strong tailwing, increase the multiplier to 5; a strong headwind decrease the multiplier to 3. If you want to keep the speed low for turbulence, reduce the MP by 5 to 6 inches (even more if you have to reduce to maneuvering speed). When you get to pattern altitude, leave the MP alone, raise the nose to level flight and you'll slow down pretty quickly.

 

[CJones]

When you get to pattern altitude, leave the MP alone, raise the nose to level flight and you'll slow down pretty quickly.

Bingo. After a while, you'll figure out what that 'magic' MP setting is for pattern speeds and you can set your MP to that setting during your descent, so when you level off at pattern altitude, you won't have to adjust power at all - you'll 'magically' be at the speed you want for flap/gear extension. That methodology can carry over to bigger and faster planes down the road as well.

When I was flying with Tony semi-regularly, he challenged me to manage my energy from start of descent until landing so that I never had to add any power back after taking it out during descent and approach. I got fairly good at it in the RV and 182RG, but don't know that I could do it today since I haven't flown in a while.

 

[swamppilot]

iDunno, I like to be at 18 to 19 inches at pattern altitude in the 182. If I'm already low I set that anyway at about midfield and at the key point I start with the power recuction, flaps and GUMP check etc. One other thing for GEMOHLER, get used to picking up speed in the descent. There is no use in slowing down 20 or 30 miles from the airport. Also, if you get into a slicker airplane than a 182, you have to be really aware of the speed; don't let it exceed limitations.

 

[swamppilot]

iDunno, I like to be at 18 to 19 inches at pattern altitude in the 182. If I'm already low I set that anyway at about midfield and at the key point I start with the power recuction, flaps and GUMP check etc. One other thing for GEMOHLER, get used to picking up speed in the descent. There is no use in slowing down 20 or 30 miles from the airport. Also, if you get into a slicker airplane than a 182, you have to be really aware of the speed; don't let it exceed limitations.

 

[gemohler]

iDunno, I like to be at 18 to 19 inches at pattern altitude in the 182. If I'm already low I set that anyway at about midfield and at the key point I start with the power recuction, flaps and GUMP check etc. One other thing for GEMOHLER, get used to picking up speed in the descent. There is no use in slowing down 20 or 30 miles from the airport. Also, if you get into a slicker airplane than a 182, you have to be really aware of the speed; don't let it exceed limitations.

The point in my training..in slowing down so early, is adding time to put it together.

As I meld with high perf planes better, of course, I can shave a lot of that off, but for now, I understand the exercise of getting ahead of the plane, and slowing down early adds time for me to do that easier.

And part of our clubs insurance signoff on this..is far too many people using flaps as brakes before down to pattern ALT. Ten deg is ok, but at 20...this plane is on it's fourth set of flaps in as many years because of poor procedure. Go down, or slow down..being trained to do one or the other now..for later, as you said.

 

[Ted]

Ed is correct. Think about it in terms of time, not distance. However 23 miles out in a 182 descending from 3500 ft is too much.

I don't have a lot of 182 time, but my general thoughts as a simple-minded twin pilot. In a plane with a constant speed prop, I'll start my descent and leave cruise power in. Trim it for the 500 fpm descent, and usually after one minute start pulling back 1"/minute (estimated, I don't use a timer) on the MP once I get below 6000 ft, aiming to hit my pattern manifold pressure by the pattern. Remember that as you descend your MP will go up, so account for that. Time it right (1 minute out for every 500 ft) and you'll hit it right every time. Target MP for me is what's required to hit gear or flap speed (in your case flaps). Trim is your friend. Work with it, you'll do well. Try to trim for what gets you the descent rate you're looking for (which is really speed).

To clarify my views on the MP change slowly for cool-down: Whether or not you believe in the shock cooling fairy, gentle power changes are appreciated by passengers and make for a smoother flight. Plus it requires more planning and timing to get gradual changes just right from a ways out. That's why I do it - I just think it's more professional and it's an extra challenge.

Ed, when I killed your engine on Saturday, that was different.

 

[gemohler]

Ed is correct. Think about it in terms of time, not distance. However 23 miles out in a 182 descending from 3500 ft is too much.

Not descending 23mi out, just..managing time/distance, descent in the training plan wasnt starting until about 10mi out, which IMHO, should be about 12mi out (my missing two miles).

And my CFI does a ton of contract flying for bay area companies, so it's likely his thoughts are -well- along the lines of passenger comfort and keeping them almost unaware of anything really going on.

 

[Ted]

Not descending 23mi out, just..managing time/distance, descent in the training plan wasnt starting until about 10mi out, which IMHO, should be about 12mi out (my missing two miles).

And my CFI does a ton of contract flying for bay area companies, so it's likely his thoughts are -well- along the lines of passenger comfort and keeping them almost unaware of anything really going on.

Ok, perhaps I misunderstood. Although if it's 10 miles out, then that's probably not enough. The minutes thing is what I think in terms of. I stopped looking at miles a while ago. If nothing else, a strong headwind or tailwind will have a big impact on that, even in the same plane.

Thinking along the lines of passenger comfort I find is good guidance for most things in flying. Safety first, of course, but comfort as a close second.

 

[Ghery]

I'm doing my IR work in a 182. 4-5 inches reduction in MP results in a 500 fpm descent. And I pull it all at once. The engine is perfectly happy with that. Cowl flaps closed, you're still making power and heat. And I don't typically drop flaps on downwind until even with the numbers. 10 degrees. 20 degrees on base, put in the rest on final. This is in a C-182P with the Q engine, if that matters.

 

[jesse]

Not descending 23mi out, just..managing time/distance, descent in the training plan wasnt starting until about 10mi out, which IMHO, should be about 12mi out (my missing two miles).

And my CFI does a ton of contract flying for bay area companies, so it's likely his thoughts are -well- along the lines of passenger comfort and keeping them almost unaware of anything really going on.

You did say you added 10 degrees of flaps 23 miles out. That's just not needed. Plus I imagine that speed limits you? You could just come down faster with more speed, get the quicker, and save some fuel.

Just because you need to fly a turbo'd airplane or an airliner one way DOES NOT mean you fly a non-turbo'd single engine piston airplane that way. I feel you should fly any airplane in the way that makes the most SENSE for it. There is no one-size-fits-all technique.

 

[Ted]

Just because you need to fly a turbo'd airplane or an airliner one way DOES NOT mean you fly a non-turbo'd single engine piston airplane that way. I feel you should fly any airplane in the way that makes the most SENSE for it. There is no one-size-fits-all technique.

+1...

 

[gemohler]

I agree on the initial flaps call..but slowing down earlier, adds time for me to put it all together. I cant be farther from the runway on my approach, but I can make it take more time to get there.

Id think, thats not entirely necessary that early at all, as you said, once im mentally cleaner on the timing.


And being new to the plane..I dont have a 'what makes sense' ruler...yet. I will.

 

[dmccormack]

I agree on the initial flaps call..but slowing down earlier, adds time for me to put it all together. I cant be farther from the runway on my approach, but I can make it take more time to get there.

Practice some ever-tighter patterns and force yourself to pick up the pace.

It's not that hard, and helps sharpen you up.

 

[bobmrg]

I agree with Tim's procedure with an additional caveat: because the airplane is known to be nose-heavy in the flare, give the horizontal stabilizer some propeller discharge air to work with...instead of full idle, add an inch or two of MP. It won't increase your airspeed at all in landing configuration, but it will improve elevator effectiveness.

If you have a copy of the Airplane Flying Handbook, look at Figure 12-3 to see how quickly parasitic drag increases as the prop governor moves the prop toward the low pitch stop.

Bob Gardner

 

[TMetzinger]

I agree with Tim's procedure with an additional caveat: because the airplane is known to be nose-heavy in the flare, give the horizontal stabilizer some propeller discharge air to work with...instead of full idle, add an inch or two of MP. It won't increase your airspeed at all in landing configuration, but it will improve elevator effectiveness.

If you have a copy of the Airplane Flying Handbook, look at Figure 12-3 to see how quickly parasitic drag increases as the prop governor moves the prop toward the low pitch stop.

Bob Gardner

Thanks, Bob... Next time I'm up I'll pay more attention to when the throttle is full out.

 

[taters]

Clay has it almost right. The multipier shouldbe 4 in a 182, however. You're doing approximately 2 miles per minute and you want to descend at approximately 500 FPM. Therefore 1,000 feet of altitude takes 2 minutes times the 2 miles per minute which equals 4. In an aircraft which cruises at approximately 180 knots, the multiplier would be 6. The 3 works fine in a turboprop (which has pressurization), just push it over to then barber poll and descend. If you want to keep the same airspeed, decrease the MP about 5 inches and you'll get the same 500 FPM.

I should clarify that this is the minimum distance that I usually start down or say something to ATC in a HP plane unless I'm catering to a particular situation or VNAV requirement..

As an instructor, I often notice people have a habit of not maintaining the decent rate to well if hand-flying a HP plane...they often short it and end up high on approach..

Concentrate on flying your profile ...then to get down with a few miles to spare..have some time to decelerate to an appropriate speed.
There might be a time when you have to "slam dunk" or "chop and drop" so understand what this takes in your plane as well.

 

[wabower]

FWIW, on most planes including jets I will know the desired pattern power setting, so my descent planning is based on getting there with gradual reductions in power and altitude necessary to achieve it. The profile can be a bit more shallow or steep as conditions dictate. If I allow enough time to arrive at pattern altitude and slow for configuration changes that will come once there, everything else seems to work out pretty well.

 

[John Collins]

Don't baby the airplane, two inches per fortnight is not necessary. Shock cooling is an OWT. I agree with those who suggest a smooth reduction of power by 5 inches to achieve a descent rate of 500 feet per minute while still maintaining your cruise speed. An advantage of maintaining your speed is that the trim will not be far off. Also, I agree with using time as the primary factor in deciding when to start down. Now a days, most aircraft have at least a portable GPS and time to destination is readily available.

If there were no obstacles to consider, I start down when my time in minutes is a few minutes more than double the altitude in 1000's of feet I need to lose to arrive at pattern altitude. The few extra minutes allow for maneuvering at pattern altitude. So with a pattern altitude of roughly 1000 feet, I would have to descend 2500 feet, which will take 5 minutes. So I would start down when I was 7 minutes out.

The fewer power changes you make the better as trim will be easier to maintain. I would reduce power if needed to level off, but as I recall 16 to 18 inches works fine in the pattern. Then add flaps as needed before further power reductions, trimming as you go. Finally, reduce power smoothly as you approach the runway as needed to keep the aircraft on the desired descent and airspeed, again trimming as you descend. You can leave an inch or two of power on until the flare to help with the round out, and then power off. It is a 182, so be willing to apply some muscle to hold it off, don't allow the airplane to drop in, particularly on the nose.

It has been over 30 years since I flew out of RHV, but coming from Hollister at 3500 feet, I would assume you would probably fly down the east side of the valley and you have to worry about clearing the hills leading to valley the airport is in. When I flew in the Bay Area, the hills didn't have homes where I would cross into the valley, so I would clear them by 500 feet and hopefully get a straight in to RHV.

 

[dmccormack]

Don't baby the airplane, two inches per fortnight is not necessary.

OK, that was flippin' hilarious!

 

[Ted]

FWIW, on most planes including jets I will know the desired pattern power setting, so my descent planning is based on getting there with gradual reductions in power and altitude necessary to achieve it. The profile can be a bit more shallow or steep as conditions dictate. If I allow enough time to arrive at pattern altitude and slow for configuration changes that will come once there, everything else seems to work out pretty well.

Wow, Wayne and I are in full agreement.

Wayne, what have you been smoking?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

You're making it MUCH too complex. You don't need to slow down that far out to stay ahead of the airplane, you just need to give yourself less stuff to do!

For what it's worth, I have a lot of 182 time, and I put most of the hours on our club's 182 over the last several years. And we have not replaced any flaps at all since I've been in the club. Heck, if anything, flying with 'em out for 23 miles probably puts more wear and tear on them! But you're right, they should not be used as brakes, especially not above Vfe. The 182 is a draggy enough airframe as it is, you don't need to add any extra drag!

Now, for what I do: I plan for a 500fpm descent, using *time* and not *distance* as Ed said. If you have a GPS to give you your groundspeed, that'll help you get an accurate distance from the time. On average, with calm winds aloft (or no headwind/tailwind component), you'll descend around 135 knots or 2 1/4 miles per minute, so 4.5 miles per 1000 feet of descent.

For power, I normally leave in my cruise setting of about 23 squared for the initial descent, and just push it over and add two swipes of nose-down trim. Note that this is NOT a C172, and you do have to push the nose down to get it to go down - If you just pull power back, it will take its sweet time starting the descent - Welcome to the world of heavier airplanes. If I want to begin slowing down or going down faster, I'll pull power back to 20"/2300, which will usually bring me back to cruise speed or a little less at 500fpm, or increase my descent rate which I try not to do (gotta keep the pax comfy).

When it's time to slow down and join the pattern, 16"/2300 will work well to slow you down once you're level. Trim for 100mph and join/fly the downwind at that speed. I keep this power setting until I begin descending from pattern altitude abeam the numbers, at which point I reduce to 12" MP which will bring the RPM down to about 2000 (that's actually what I'm aiming for, not a specific MP). Again, PUSH to give the plane a bit of downward momentum.

You should be able to get a nice descent at 2000 RPM and 100mph. Add the first notch of flaps once you get the descent initiated. When you begin your turn to base, select the second notch, and when you begin the turn to final add the rest. This is one advantage of the slow electric flaps: They'll continue adding lift throughout the turn, so you don't even need to pull back on the yoke during the turn. When you roll out of the turn the flaps should be at the selected notch and you'll be a little slower. You shouldn't need to re-trim or hold back pressure on the yoke during the turns, and you'll end up on final approach at a perfect 80 mph. Keep that 2000 RPM all the way down to the flare and pull it to idle. Hold the plane off - It takes a lot more arm strength than the 172 does, so it's harder to finesse at the beginning. Some people like a swipe or two of nose-up trim in the flare to make that easier, but you'll have to be prepared to PUSH HARD on a go-around if you choose to do it that way. I don't.

So, to recap: Push and trim to begin descent from cruise. Pull to 20" and trim to begin slowing down. Pull to 16" and trim for 100mph just prior to entering the pattern. Pull to about 12"/2000 RPM to begin the final descent from pattern altitude (and NOW push in the blue knob). No power or trim changes from there to the flare - Just add a notch of flaps each when you roll into the base turn and the final turn. You should end up at 80mph with full flaps on final at the same trim setting you had for 100mph on downwind. Pull the power, flare, touch down on the mains.

Another technique thing you should work on is holding the nose off the ground and letting it down gently. The 182 has a heavier engine than you're used to, and if you just let go and let it plop down, you may end up with expensive nose gear or engine mount repairs or a wrinkled firewall. I like to touch down on the mains and then hold that back pressure until the nose begins coming down on its own.

If you porpoise, you have ONE chance to fix it. If you touch again, GO AROUND. Third time you touch in a porpoise is pretty much a guaranteed prop strike. Our 182 had this happen before I was in the club, and another club on the field that used to have a 182 (emphasis on "used to") did as well. Theirs was totaled.

Hope this helps!

 

[AirBaker]

Don't baby the airplane, two inches per fortnight is not necessary. Shock cooling is an OWT. I agree with those who suggest a smooth reduction of power by 5 inches to achieve a descent rate of 500 feet per minute while still maintaining your cruise speed.

What John said...

I also got my HP endorsement in the 182 at RHV. I remember the same issues and once you get over this inch-per-minute thing all the CFIs there teach you, you'll be just fine.

Out of curiosity... Which club are you flying out of?