Wings Credit / BFR... Calling AggieMike88

[SixPapaCharlie]

So I was talking to Mike and he was mentioning instead of a BFR, you can take wings credits and that can either take place if a BFR or somehow push it out.

I thought I understood when we discussed but now I am confused.
First, I don't need a BFR but I am taking online safety courses and I need the high level over view of what wings is / does, and what online courses apply and how it impacts the BFR.

If none of that makes sense, hopefully Mike can explain it better.

If I am taking these little safety things, I would like to make them count toward something if they can.

 

[Unit74]

I think it's wings plus something else... I was at a CAP meeting and they were talking about about the BFR and Wings, so I know there is a program that will replace the BFR.

 

[JasonM]

This program has always confused me as well. I took a few for fun but really don't understand how to use the system. i'd love some easy to understand rules on how to play.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

- Completion of a phase of Wings substitutes for a Flight Review. You have a one-year window for completion of the tasks before the oldest ones (more than a year old) start to "expire".

A phase of wings typically includes of two online courses or live seminars plus some ground instruction. The flight work involves 3 different "items" from which you have several options, and these can typically be accomplished in less than 2 hours of dual flight time, if you are reasonably proficient.

You can actually do a "Flight Review" as one of the options and that will cover the ground instruction time needed and much of the flight activities, just depends what you pick for your flight activities. I typically roll an IPC in as one of my flight activities.

If you sign up on the Wings website
https://www.faasafety.gov/WINGS/pppinfo/

and look under the right column it will have links that show all the options available for the knowledge and flight activities for each of the "3 steps" for both knowledge and flight work.

Jeff

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Here is a screen shot of my current Wings program status. I'm currently working toward my 3rd "Basic" Wings completion under the new program, and I completed 4 Phases under the old program. I have only rarely done only a flight review to fulfill my currency requirement. I typically have used Wings, and getting my Instrument rating and Commercial certificate fulfilled currency requirements in lieu of a flight review for a few years (done in 2003 and 2004).

Note that the "Advanced" and "Master" levels apply only when you complete more than one phase in a year (i.e., you have to complete a Basic phase to complete an "Advanced" phase, which you can see I've only done once so far).

Your instructor uses your registered email address to access your record keeping from their side to certify completion of the flight and/or ground phases of instruction. It should only take the CFI a very few minutes to complete this registration of your credits.

Jeff

 

[NoHeat]

I recently finished a WINGS Basic Phase, which serves as a substitute for a BFR.

Ground portion:
You can meet this requirement a lot of different ways. I had an online lesson or two from AOPA/ASF, an in-person seminar run by AOPA/ASF, and a two-hour class run by my type club. This was spread out over about 6 months for me.

Flight portion:
I did this last, in a single flight. You need an instructor. Mine printed and followed the list from faasafety, which included a simulated power-off landing and a partial PPL checkride: steep turns, stalls, cross-wind landings, short-field takeoff, and so forth. It took less than 1.5 hours flying time.

After the flight, the instructor ended up giving me a logbook BFR sign-off -- as well as an online sign-off for my WINGS phase. So in the end, there was no savings for me as compared to just doing the BFR. But at least I do get to claim on my insurance renewal that I did some recurrent training, and I have the WINGS certificate to show that.

When you do something like a seminar or online lesson, it expires for WINGS credit after a year. So you can spread stuff out, but not too much.

 

[JimNtexas]

Words cannot describe the rage I feel whenever the current Wings program is mentioned.

Back when the government wasn't supposed to micromanage everything, if you wanted to use Wings to substitute for a BFR it was really simple:

3 hours of ground training which you documented on a piece of paper. The ground training was an hour of a CFI or FAA employee talking about some subject she was interested in at the local fly in or safety day.

3 hours of flight training from a CFI covering a few broad areas. You and your instructor mutually agreed on the training that would help you the most within very broad guidelines. Because in those days pilots were considered adults.

No requirement to evaluate the pilot against the PTS or anything else, just conduct the training. Document those on your slip of paper and your logbook.

The second you completed all six requirements you had BFR credit.

Send the slip of paper to your friendly neighborhood FSDO, in the fullness of time you'd get a nice ink jet printed certificate and a little Wings pin.

Simple, no need for a government web developer contractor to make an obtuse web site, no need for anyone in the FAA to do more than look at your slip of paper and tell the secretary to mail you the certificate.

Clearly that was unacceptably simple!!!!!

So now the money short FAA pays for a horrible web site to micromanage the whole process and making the flying part essentially check rides.

The current system sucks on a million levels compared to the old simple way of doing things.

 

[NoHeat]

The Wings website is bad and it is confusing. But things improve if you just click on "MyWings" and ignore most everything else.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

The "old" way had no way to record if you had done an online knowledge topic session, which is easier for many folks than attending a live seminar, which was required under the old program.

There is sufficient flexibility in the "new" system that I would challenge someone to come up with a realistic scenario where it truly provides less flexibility than the old system. With the addition of numerous web-training options, it provides significantly more than the old program. In fact, the new system is typically less expensive, because you can readily complete many of the flight-topic requirements in less than the 3 hours of flight time previously required.

You still needed a proper logbook endorsement of completion of the requirements under the old system, just as you do with the new system. Your "flight review" clock resets when your logbook entry says it does. You don't need to wait for the instructor to go online to complete the record - that can be done later.

No one in the FAA looks at your record unless you experience a technical problem with the website. You and your CFI complete the milestone records.

So much misinformation out there...

 

[JasonM]

Other than just helping yourself be more knowledgeable, why would I spend 6 hours meeting wings requirements when I could spend jsut 2 hours with a CFI and be done with it? I'm lost..

 

[MAKG1]

I think it's wings plus something else... I was at a CAP meeting and they were talking about about the BFR and Wings, so I know there is a program that will replace the BFR.

For a CAP pilot, CAPF 5 counts as a Wings activity and can substitute for a BFR. However, you have to have a current BFR to complete CAPF 5.

Yes, Wings can substitute for a BFR if you complete it, but there is so much stuff to do that you'll spend a lot more than a BFR to complete it.

You can take the courses without completing it if you want. It's the in-flight activities that cost a ton.

Basically, the carrot the FAA offers takes three hours of instruction, to get you out of two (one ground, one air). Kinda silly if you ask me.

Honestly, my BFR was a ton of fun. We worked on canyon turns. It's amazing just how fast you can get a 172 turned around. We all read about those in the AFH, but it's quite different to try them for real. What the AFH doesn't tell you is that if you don't hear the stall warning, you can turn tighter.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Other than just helping yourself be more knowledgeable, why would I spend 6 hours meeting wings requirements when I could spend jsut 2 hours with a CFI and be done with it? I'm lost..

No, you're not lost. The Wings program is not about doing it easier or cheaper than a traditional flight review. It is about doing *more* than the minimum. It is about continuing education and proficiency. Some insurance companies offer a discount for completion of Wings, and I've heard, but have not seen the actual stats, that Wings program participants are less likely to be involved in accidents.

 

[AggieMike88]

Bryan, what has been said above covers the basics and then some.

All of the live and online seminars I have attended within the FAA safety program that grant WINGS credit have taught me worth while information. So it is easy to get the required information part that way. The 3 sections of real flying can happen on one or two flights.

Which reminds me I need to send the approval request to Señor Levy so I can get the Wings credit for the training I did with him.

 

[tlglenn]

I have never done a BFR. It's always been a new rating or WINGS phase.

My flying club requires six-month checkouts so I just use those as flight credits for WINGS particularly since I have the CFIs put me through more than just the minimums.

 

[NoHeat]

The Wings program is not about doing it easier or cheaper than a traditional flight review. It is about doing *more* than the minimum.

This is exactly right. And I didn't realize it when I started it.

I'm not sure if the woeful Wings web page says so, but it should put the program forth as an extra-effort extra-cost version of a flight review that gives you more training.

 

[JimNtexas]

"you still needed a proper logbook endorsement of completion of the requirements under the old system, just as you do with the new system."

You are mistaken, and I have draw full of FSDO issued Wings Certificates to show that.

You had to document each of the requirements, but there was no "final signoff". Why would there need to be? There was no requirement to meet PTS standards for anything. The whole point was to encourage continuation training, not just make it a web powered BFR.

As far as online courses, all it would have taken would have been to just include the providers certificate of completion as all or part of the required ground training.

No need to give a million dollars to an incompetent government contractor.

Edited to add:

The old program's very simple and straight forward rules are here.

For airplanes these were the flying requirements:

(1) One hour of flight training to include basic airplane
control stalls, turns, and other maneuvers directed toward
mastery of the airplane.
(2) One hour of flight training to include approaches,
takeoffs, and landings, including crosswind. soft field, and
short field techniques.
(3) One hour of instrument training in an airplane, FAA approved
aircraft simulator or training device.

Note that the requirement was for training, the CFI was not required to conduct any sort of checkride.

Once you had your three hours of flight and the required ground training you had send that slip of paper ("wings card") to the FAA and they mailed you your pin and certificate.

Endorsement Verification. As pilots complete each
step of training outlined in paragraphs 7 or 8, whichever is
appropriate, their logbooks or other proficiency records
must be endorsed by the persons who gave the
instruction. That endorsement should read substantively
as follows:
Mr./Ms._________________, holder of pilot
certificate no.___________, has satisfactorily
completed the training requirements outlined in
Advisory Circular 61-9111, paragraphs 7a, b, c, d,
e, f, or g (state which)
/s/ (date) M. Smith, 385652472CFI or
/s/ (date) M. Smith, USUA Ultralight Instructor (or
other approved instructor)123454
Note: In the case of ultralights, no certificate number
is required.
b. Award of Pilot Proficiency Wings and Certificate.
The Pilot Proficiency Award certificate and the appropriate
wings will be awarded after the pilot's logbook or other
proficiency record (such as a properly documented "wings
card") is presented to the SPM for verification of
completion of training as stipulated in this AC.

The FAA guys handed out the 'wings cards' a pretty much every air show and safety meeting.

Simple, cheap, effective. Clearly this program had to go!!!!!

 

[NoHeat]

There were three hours of flight training required in the old system?

The new system has no hour requirement. Just a list that can be satisfied in about half that time.

Having just completed a basic phase, I think the new system of training is okay. But not the website.

 

[JimNtexas]

There were three hours of flight training required in the old system?

The new system has no hour requirement. Just a list that can be satisfied in about half that time.

You say that like its a good thing. If you just wanted to fly an hour in the old system you just did a BFR.

I liked the old precisely because it encouraged real continuation training that concentrated on areas that I and my instructor thought I needed the most practice. The old system worked, Wings pilots were statistically safer than BFR pilots. And it was cheap to the government.

The new system is just a BFR that funds a government contractor. Why bother with it?

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Why bother with it?

If it doesn't work for you, then don't do it. It works just fine for many of us, except for an imperfect website that isn't all that hard to figure out once you've used it a time or two.

I don't get the logic of someone wanting to do "more than the minimum" but then railing on needing to fly to PTS standards.

I had a bit of a bad attitude toward the new program at first too, but after my CFI walked me through it for a few minutes, I got over myself and decided it was better to hold on to the rope instead of trying to push it.