Wingover

[dell30rb]

Anyone care to describe the wingover?

I was horsing around yesterday and tried it. I could do something that resembled a wingover but some of my attempts were laughable. Never seen any good info on how to do one. Basically my understanding is that you pull the nose up, let airspeed decay and turn 180 degrees.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Start the nose up, start rolling into a turn, maximum "up" at about 1/4 turn, maximum bank, minimum airspeed at 1/2 turn as the nose falls through the horizon, maximum nose down at 3/4 turn, finally level at the end.

To do it nicely takes practice and timing to make the bank, climb, airspeed all happen in sync.

With practice (and the right stuff for "aerobatics") you can make the peak of the turn at 90 degrees and 0 indicated, and of course, no stall since you are not pulling at all.

My brother was good at it, I was not...

 

[poadeleted20]

An unlazy-8? Just think of it as a Lazy-8 done a lot more aggressively with a max bank of 90 instead of 60. And remember that the FAA will consider this an acrobatic maneuver.

 

[dell30rb]

I was wondering about that. At what point is a maneuver 'acrobatic' ?

I never exceeded 90 degrees bank. I tried a few times just pulling the nose up and kicking it w rudder. Did not accomplish a 180... Got something close

 

[poadeleted20]

I was wondering about that. At what point is a maneuver 'acrobatic' ?

Per 91.303:

For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight.

...and I guarantee the FAA will consider 90 degrees of bank to be "an abnormal attitude."

 

[flyingron]

...and the parachute-required regulation list these limits:
(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.
Not an issue if you are solo, but if you've got a passenger...

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Learn how to do lazy 8's first, and how to do them precisely (heck, get your commercial while you're at it, that's one of the required maneuvers). A wingover is just an overachieving "lazy" 8.

 

[dell30rb]

Per 91.303:
...and I guarantee the FAA will consider 90 degrees of bank to be "an abnormal attitude."

So a spin is an acrobatic maneuver? That's a really lame definition.

I do remember the 60-30 degrees rule and 'chutes thing.

 

[flyingron]

So a spin is an acrobatic maneuver? That's a really lame definition.

Spins are considered aerobatic, so are lazy eights, chandelles, and steep turns when over 60 degrees of bank. It might not be the most exciting acro flying, but it qualifies by the regulatory definitions in Part 23 and 91.

 

[dell30rb]

Gotcha. My plane is approved for a lazy eight. I suppose a true wingover would be a no-no because the FAA defines the lazy eight at 60 degrees bank correct

 

[poadeleted20]

So a spin is an acrobatic maneuver?

It sure is. That's why many planes are placarded "Acrobatic maneuvers including spins prohibited" as opposed to "Acrobatic maneuvers and spins prohibited."

That's a really lame definition.

Well, it is what it is, and I can't change it.

I do remember the 60-30 degrees rule and 'chutes thing.

That's a different regulation (91.307, IIRC).

 

[poadeleted20]

Gotcha. My plane is approved for a lazy eight. I suppose a true wingover would be a no-no because the FAA defines the lazy eight at 60 degrees bank...

Where is that written? The Commercial PTS definition is 30 degrees bank.

 

[FlySince9]

Ron,

I thought there was some kind of exclusion for spin training/demonstration

 

[flyingron]

Ron,

I thought there was some kind of exclusion for spin training/demonstration

Spins and other manouvers required for ratings are exempted from the PARACHUTE requirements only.

The FAA recognizes you can do lazy eights with various amounts of bank. Up to 60 degrees, you can do them in the normal category. 60-90 requires the utility.

This is telling because I can't get my plane with any useful load configuration into the Utility category envelope with the big engine.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The FAA recognizes you can do lazy eights with various amounts of bank. Up to 60 degrees, you can do them in the normal category. 60-90 requires the utility.

Reference, please? A 90-degree "lazy eight" is a wingover, and in any case you shouldn't have to pull even close to the 3.8-G normal category limit for a lazy eight/wingover at any bank angle. Is there some regulation that says you need utility category for a certain class of maneuvers, or is that simply a limitation of your airplane?

 

[dell30rb]

Reference, please? A 90-degree "lazy eight" is a wingover, and in any case you shouldn't have to pull even close to the 3.8-G normal category limit for a lazy eight/wingover at any bank angle. Is there some regulation that says you need utility category for a certain class of maneuvers, or is that simply a limitation of your airplane?

in my POH it says the aircraft is approved for limited aerobatic maneuvers in the utility category, and then it goes on to list several maneuvers.

Many of the cessnas are certified in this way.. I think the piper has some language about bank angle not exceeding 60 degrees unless in the utility category.

 

[poadeleted20]

Spins and other manouvers required for ratings are exempted from the PARACHUTE requirements only.

Right -- the 91.307 issue. However, per 91.303, spins are still acrobatic maneuvers for which the aircraft must be certified and which must stay within the restrictions of that reg (min altitudes, not on airways, etc).

The FAA recognizes you can do lazy eights with various amounts of bank. Up to 60 degrees, you can do them in the normal category. 60-90 requires the utility.

That may be what it says in your aircraft's AFM or other operating limitations, but it's not written that way in any regulation.

 

[flyingron]

Reference, please? A 90-degree "lazy eight" is a wingover, and in any case you shouldn't have to pull even close to the 3.8-G normal category limit for a lazy eight/wingover at any bank angle. Is there some regulation that says you need utility category for a certain class of maneuvers, or is that simply a limitation of your airplane?

Comes straight from Part 23.
It has nothing to do with G loading, the maneuvers are specifically listed as the defaults for the Normal and Utility categories (unless the manufacturer certifies otherwise).

 

[poadeleted20]

Comes straight from Part 23.
It has nothing to do with G loading, the maneuvers are specifically listed as the defaults for the Normal and Utility categories (unless the manufacturer certifies otherwise).

It's in 14 CFR 23.3, and it's something of which I was not previously aware. It does not say that 60 degrees is the breakpoint between a wingover and a Lazy-8, but it does set that value as the limit for Normal category "nonacrobatic" maneuvering and 90 degrees for Utility category "limited acrobatic" maneuvering. Of course, you still have to comply with 91.303 and 91.307, including their own definitions of the maneuvering to which they apply.