Wind Shear

dmccormack

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Dan Mc
I was about to head out to fly a bit this morning.

Until I read this: KAGC 071133Z 0712/0812 19010KT P6SM OVC045 WS010/24055KT
FM071500 20012G22KT P6SM OVC030
FM071800 20013G23KT P6SM OVC018

Hmmm.. Wind Shear at 1,000 ft at 55 knots?

Nah..not today.
 
Got to be a mistake

No, probably not, I've seen shears like this forecast in Missouri also. Typically though in MO the shear level is closer to 2,000'.

Besides, I'm sitting in Appleton, WI and it's almost 50*F here right now. It takes a strong southerly flow to produce temps like that here in February!! Especially since there's at least 12" to 18" of snow on the ground yet so the temps aren't getting any help from "ground warming". It would be 60*F here if there wasn't snow on the ground!

Edit: I just checked aviationweather.gov and they're showing 60kt winds at 5000' over southern Michigan.
:yikes:
 
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Got to be a mistake

Probably not a mistake:

KJLN 071653Z 20020G25KT 10SM BKN027 OVC035 18/11 A3010 RMK AO2 PK WND 20033/1618 SLP189 T01780111

KJLN 071130Z 0712/0812 20022G30KT P6SM SCT025 WS020/22055KT
TEMPO 0712/0714 BKN020
FM071400 20018G26KT P6SM BKN025 WS020/22045KT
FM071800 22014G24KT P6SM SCT030
FM072200 22013KT P6SM BKN030
FM080200 17008KT P6SM OVC030
FM080600 05005KT 6SM BR OVC025


I flew to Miami County for BBQ the other day and the WS was similar. Like Tim said, it's not unusual for it to be at 1,000, as well.

Hey Tim, it's 66 degrees here today. When ya coming home?
 
It was windy here today, as well. I went out and practiced some commercial maneuvers. Was definitely good practice with the winds working to botch things up.

Not on that order of wind shear, though.
 
It was windy here today, as well. I went out and practiced some commercial maneuvers. Was definitely good practice with the winds working to botch things up.

Not on that order of wind shear, though.

It was gusting to 30 earlier than forecast (of course that's a TAF and I live about 30 miles south of the field).

I'll do G30+ anyday in a Bonanza, but will think it over in a Cessna.

I've been in severe wind shear conditions once before in the A36 (I posted that story a while back).

Uncommanded roll up to 40 degrees either way, stall horn blaring while ASI indicates 50 knots above stall, etc.

Not fun unless you're going someplace and leaving it behind.
 
No, probably not, I've seen shears like this forecast in Missouri also. Typically though in MO the shear level is closer to 2,000'.

Besides, I'm sitting in Appleton, WI and it's almost 50*F here right now. It takes a strong southerly flow to produce temps like that here in February!! Especially since there's at least 12" to 18" of snow on the ground yet so the temps aren't getting any help from "ground warming". It would be 60*F here if there wasn't snow on the ground!

Edit: I just checked aviationweather.gov and they're showing 60kt winds at 5000' over southern Michigan.
:yikes:
Good to know,even on the worst days here I have never seen shear that bad. thanks:)
 
Yeah Me and Kent had a flying club outing to Sheboygan today. We took an Archer and the 182 up. I was seeing 150Kt ground speeds up in the archer (indicating about 110), and we were making a blazing 90kt ground speed on the way home in the 182 (indicating 125-130).

It was suprisingly smooth once you got through the relatively shallow mixing layer. Kent played with the 430 winds calculator, and it came up with 58kts at 310 at 4500'
 
Hey Tim, it's 66 degrees here today. When ya coming home?

Next week! We're experiencing a "february thaw" up here...now that I'm done with the project OF COURSE.

I started another one in Anna, IL (south of Carbondale) last week...well actually the demo/dirt contractor started it w/o me. I'll be down there full time starting 2/16 and it's only 50 miles from the farm instead of 550! I won't know how to act!!!!
 
Leslie was telling me that her instructor had been flying the ILS33 with a student. Only they were flying a heading of 280 and tracking nicely! Then later they were coming in on 01L (IIRC) with power pretty much to idle and were getting about 135KT over the ground IN A 172! For some reason they opted not to go up for their (B)FR today!
 
Leslie was telling me that her instructor had been flying the ILS33 with a student. Only they were flying a heading of 280 and tracking nicely! Then later they were coming in on 01L (IIRC) with power pretty much to idle and were getting about 135KT over the ground IN A 172! For some reason they opted not to go up for their (B)FR today!

01L was where? I'm drawing a blank....

I went up with the II in a 172 yesterday to practice some APPs at RFD...We had a 65kt GS getting there, and a 132kt GS coming home....

My old record was 128:smile: (wow, new smilies!)

PS--FWIW, it was smooth for us above 1,500...
 
Yeah Me and Kent had a flying club outing to Sheboygan today. We took an Archer and the 182 up. I was seeing 150Kt ground speeds up in the archer (indicating about 110), and we were making a blazing 90kt ground speed on the way home in the 182 (indicating 125-130).

It was suprisingly smooth once you got through the relatively shallow mixing layer. Kent played with the 430 winds calculator, and it came up with 58kts at 310 at 4500'

Those were fun winds yesterday, weren't they? I flew with my CFII from KUES to KMKE @ 1430Z for the ILS for 19R, and then for fun did some slow flight @ 3,500 and got down to 5 kts groundspeed per the GPS. Wild.
 
My bad, I think it was 02L at KDPA. Remember, this is me passing along what Leslie passed along that she heard from her instructor.:yikes:

:rofl: I just wanted to be sure I wasn't going crazy....
 
I can't attest to that one way or the other. Even crazy people can spot logical discrepancies!:D:eek:

:sleep:

:nono::mad3::nono:


It was the wind yesterday, I swear....
OK, you got me, I couldn't think of a response:D
 
I was about to head out to fly a bit this morning.

Until I read this: KAGC 071133Z 0712/0812 19010KT P6SM OVC045 WS010/24055KT
FM071500 20012G22KT P6SM OVC030
FM071800 20013G23KT P6SM OVC018

Hmmm.. Wind Shear at 1,000 ft at 55 knots?

Nah..not today.

Not necessarily a big deal. Of course, it depends on the plane and the pilot. Non-microburst wind shear doesn't do a whole heck of a lot to a small airplane, as we have very little inertia and things quickly reach a new steady state. As Pete says:

Yeah Me and Kent had a flying club outing to Sheboygan today. We took an Archer and the 182 up. I was seeing 150Kt ground speeds up in the archer (indicating about 110), and we were making a blazing 90kt ground speed on the way home in the 182 (indicating 125-130).

It was suprisingly smooth once you got through the relatively shallow mixing layer. Kent played with the 430 winds calculator, and it came up with 58kts at 310 at 4500'

Above 2600 feet it was perfectly smooth, a beautiful day to fly. Here, surface winds were 230 at 8G16, with a warning of around WS020/23055KT. The turbulence in the shear layer was actually lighter than normal, mostly just a few burbles here and there, with no significant change in indicated airspeed.

Note that with this particular shear, runway heading (21) would have resulted in an increasing headwind, which would boost the climb rate anyway. I was assigned a 140 heading after takeoff, so I simply increased my airspeed to compensate for the potential sudden tailwind. That had two effects: One, it gave me plenty of extra airspeed to avoid the shear causing a problem with lift, and two, it meant that I was climbing at a lower rate, making it take longer to travel through the shear layer and thus slowing down the change in wind as well. :yes:
 
Not necessarily a big deal. Of course, it depends on the plane and the pilot. Non-microburst wind shear doesn't do a whole heck of a lot to a small airplane, as we have very little inertia and things quickly reach a new steady state.


Wind Shear in this case was caused by high velocity winds very close to the undulating surface.

That sets up a rotor action that causes turbulence that can overcome a small airplane's ability to counter.

I've flown around here in less wind shear with up to 40 degrees uncommanded roll in an A36 and a V35.

No big deal?

Right.

You can have my punches for your tough guy card. Mine is filled.
 
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Dan,

Doesn't always mean a bad thing. This is a forecast for non-convective low-level wind shear (LLWS). This simply states the winds will be 240 degrees at 55 knots at 1,000 feet. It is a form of vertical speed shear. Here's a sample 12 minute workshop from my new subscription-based website that discusses this phenomenon.

Here's the PIT RAOB for 12Z which shows 54 knot winds at 2,000 ft MSL (about 900 ft AGL).

Sorry, Scott -- it's not the wind shear per se, but rather the high velocity winds over the hilly surface in this area that causes rotor effect that makes flying small GA planes No Fun.
 
Dan, I sorta think that you all are agreeing here.

Note, Kent said, "...not necessarily a big deal ...," and Scott noted, "...Doesn't always mean a bad thing..."- which are to say, the fact that there is a significant delta in wind velocity and/or direction is a point of concern, but not always something that will make safe flight improbable. Note here, they were discussing wind shear enough above ground level to make the ground-induced rotors and ickyness you reference not be a real issue.

Edit:

All of which is to say, no one called you wrong, either, and safety-of-flight decisions rest always in the sound discretion of the pilot, whose decision to scrub a flight because of weather is never the wrong one.
 
Dan, I sorta think that you all are agreeing here.

Note, Kent said, "...not necessarily a big deal ...," and Scott noted, "...Doesn't always mean a bad thing..."- which are to say, the fact that there is a significant delta in wind velocity and/or direction is a point of concern, but not always something that will make safe flight improbable. Note here, they were discussing wind shear enough above ground level to make the ground-induced rotors and ickyness you reference not be a real issue.

Edit:

All of which is to say, no one called you wrong, either, and safety-of-flight decisions rest always in the sound discretion of the pilot, whose decision to scrub a flight because of weather is never the wrong one.

I agree 100%.

In my OP I quoted the local METAR/TAF. Note that is had wind velocities in excess of 50 knots at 1000 feet above AGC, which is 1252' MSL.

Not far from AGC are ridges that exceed 2500' MSL.

That data and local knowledge (what happens to small airplanes when winds are from 060-240 and >25) caused this pilot to stay on the ground.
 
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Not necessarily Dan. In a very strong inversion, its dang hard to get ANY secondary upward motion. This particular situation you won't get mountain waves either since the atmosphere is stable near the surface. Like I mentioned in the workshop I posted, this is one of the most misunderstood forecasts in aviation. When this is coupled with a rather intense synoptic-scale event, you can at times get some of this high wind to translate down toward the surface when coupled with a precipitation event aloft; this can result in a microburst or downburst creating a significant hazard to aviation. I'll be adding a second workshop (follow-on) to discuss these kind of events that can be coupled with a strong low-level jet typically greater than 50 knots (which will likely trigger a forecast for non-convective low level wind shear).

There's nothing wrong, however, with making a decision to stay on the surface. My concern is making sure pilots understand what is actually going on in the atmosphere that ultimately will produce such a forecast.

Scott,

I'm sorry but I must disagree, and I'll use a few real-life examples.

One flight, local AWOS was reporting winds L&V @ 4.

The Winds aloft were reported at 60 knots at 3,000.

It was a quiet, clear night and every indication was that it was a good night for a local flight. I thought the Winds aloft must have been older data (I won't make that mistake again).

I described that flight in another post, but will summarize that the A36 with 3 aboard and full fuel was barely controllable -- I was moving the yoke to the stops to maintain within 30 degrees of wings level and was seeing uncommanded roll up to to 40 degrees.

Not fun.

On another night in a -35 (V tail Bonanza), winds at all airports in the area were L&V. Inbound to VVS it got rough, and I asked an airborne Helo piloted by a freind of mine what he was showing for winds -- he reported winds 20G25 at 1000 feet (they have all sorts of sweet gear).

Until I got below 500' AGL it was rodeo. Once below 500' AGL on final it smoothed out (though still gusty) and once within 50' of the surface it was like glass.

Once I rolled to a stop I sat for a while before I could even taxi.

Not fun.

The fact is for Saturday's METAR, the atmosphere was far from "stable" -- within an hour of that report winds were 18G30 at MGW and VVS, and locally the winds were as hard and varying w/n 30 degrees from south.

On another flight, winds were 8 from the south on the surface, but at 3,000 MSL it was insanely rough. I had my student climb to 3500 and it smoothed out considerably. Winds aloft were strong (>30 @3000) but not insane.

I understand how a strong flow can actually dampen wave activity along a flat plane -- however our low, regular series of ridges here conspire to do very strange things.

Hopefully someone else that flies the Alleghenies can chime in, but all the pilots I know in Western PA and WV all agree that flying gets interesting whenever winds are greater than 30 knots at ridge level.
 
Wind Shear in this case was caused by high velocity winds very close to the undulating surface.

That sets up a rotor action that causes turbulence that can overcome a small airplane's ability to counter.

I've flown around here in less wind shear with up to 40 degrees uncommanded roll in an A36 and a V35.

No big deal?

Right.

You can have my punches for your tough guy card. Mine is filled.

Dan,

I wasn't saying you should have flown... Simply saying that others needn't necessarily worry about wind shear. Most people who are old enough to remember the 80's think wind shear = automatic crash because it brought down several airliners back then. Plenty of newer pilots probably think the same thing, not realizing that the large inertia of an airliner is what can make wind shear a real problem.

Had you said

Hmmm.. Wind Shear at 1,000 ft at 55 knots, around all this terrain?

Nah..not today.

(bolded text mine) I probably wouldn't have said anything. But there's a lot of people who avoid perfectly flyable situations because they fear the almighty wind shear - I was simply providing a counterpoint, hoping to get some folks to understand that wind shear in many if not most situations doesn't do much to a small airplane.
 
I get to do well over a hundred preflight reviews with pilots (in addition to my own) every year. They are flights located in just about every corner of the U.S. I have never had one of my online students report bumpy air to the extent you are suggesting when non-convective LLWS was in the forecast. I also monitor pilot reports daily and pay a lot of attention to details like this. PIREPs have their advantages and disadvantages too; so we can't put so much trust in them unless they truly support what the other data suggests.

Scott,

In both of the Bonanza cases I mentioned the air was clear and rather cool -- there was no convective activity within 200 miles.

I'll need to dig up my logbook to get you the dates/times.

Dan
 
FWIW, I flew in to KAGC on Saturday a.m. 2/7. Winds were not bad. In fact, there were several planes in the pattern doing touch & goes. Airport was actually busier than I've seen it in a long time. Interestingly, there was an instructor and an instrument student in Corporate Air sitting near me and they were discussing exactly what Scott D. wrote above, including looking at Skew-T logs on a laptop (may have even been referencing your materials, Scott). Then they got up and took off. Anyway, just a PIREP for AGC Sat. morning (around 9:30-10 am).
 
I wasn't saying you should have flown... Simply saying that others needn't necessarily worry about wind shear. Most people who are old enough to remember the 80's think wind shear = automatic crash because it brought down several airliners back then. Plenty of newer pilots probably think the same thing, not realizing that the large inertia of an airliner is what can make wind shear a real problem.

Wind Shear in the case I descibed in the OP was one indication of what was happening in the atmosphere -- there was a very strong southerly flow that day -- a flow that ran right across the ridges to our south (look at a map of PA and WV and you'll see the ridgeline runs southwesterly, almost 220 heading in some stretches).

I agree that a Wind Shear forecast alone is not necessarily a threat to safety of flight. But that velocity at that altitude in this area (especially given my mission that morning, which would have been putzing around)-- that better give any GA pilot pause.
 
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