Will your FBO be able to get charts?

AdamZ

AdamZ

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Adam Zucker
AOPA has reported that the Gov't is now requiring higher miniumus for their chart agents. Previously your FBO used to have to buy $500 worth of charts per year. Now the Gov't won't ship them unless they purchase $5000 worth of charts. oVer on the Red board there is lots of talk about switching to the Chart Atlas
 
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Re: Will you FBO be able to get charts?

I read that same thing. We're one of only two locations around Austin that sell charts. I don't know how much we sell but even with DPS and DOT among the many other customers, I'm betting we're barely meeting that $5,000.

It seems to me NACO might be shooting itself in the foot. Limiting access might push users off to Jep or the chart atlas mentioned.
 
Re: Will you FBO be able to get charts?

Why can't somebody set themselves up as distributor, buy the $25,000 worth of charts and sell them to resellers?

Course, that would only mean the price would go up by $3.00 a chart to cover the middleman.

That guvmint is doing a great job for GA. First they got rid of flight service, now charts. If they require a minimum to use ATC services the 100 hour a year pilots can be grounded completely. The ATA will be soooo happy.
 
Mike I thought about that. But more interms of a few FBOs getting together to form a chart Co-op. but that probably is not worth the effort. I can't belive the FBO is making much on the charts but its the convience to its customers that matters. What eventually going to happen is the big subscription services will take over like Joe Pilot or Sportys.
 
If they aren't locally available no one will use them. The resulting lack of safety will be no one's fault but the govmt.
 
It's already a PIA to get charts & AFDs in Lincoln, NE- if you don't get them the first week of the new cycle, you're going to be in the next Sporty's Cessna drawing. Steingar's got a point.
 
Text of an email that I sent to AOPA ASN earlier today

If the FAA policy change on requirments to be a chart agent stay as it has been announced, we will no longer provide charts for pilots beginning next October. Supposedly, this change will make the FAA more efficient. The admin burden on us already puts this beyond being a profitable product line and we maintain it only for the support of the pilot community. I see additional admin burden and reduced profits if we are forced to become a "sub-agent". It is enough to push us over the edge on providing this service to pilots.

The current chart supply system does badly need change but this is a poorly thought out direction.

I have long believed that chart distribution is something that would benefit from being turned over to industry. With the current system, although we are computer literate, we have found it easier to fax orders than to use the on-line ordering possibility. We also have found it necessary to mail obsolete returns with some sort of delivery confirmation and to maintain a detailed inventory of what was returned to protect ourselves against the FAA losing the mailing. Detailed inventory of new charts receipts against the packing slip and against the original order has also proven to be necessary. The distribution center's address on "Good Luck Road" is ironically appropriate.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
As the AOPA article pointed out, and the actual FAA letter shows (http://download.aopa.org/epilot/2008/081125faacharts.pdf), FBOs can continue to purchase charts for resale, they'll just purchase them from an agent that DOES qualify under the new terms. I see no reason you'll not still be able to find charts on the shelf at your FBO... no worries.
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No worries except the reselling agent has to take a taste to cover the investment of more dollars in inventory and the costs of wholesale order handling, and the chart will be shipped an additional leg.
 
Well, you can always order your charts online via a subscription. Several good dependable affordable vendors out there, and you'll never miss a chart update.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
As the AOPA article pointed out, and the actual FAA letter shows (http://download.aopa.org/epilot/2008/081125faacharts.pdf), FBOs can continue to purchase charts for resale, they'll just purchase them from an agent that DOES qualify under the new terms. I see no reason you'll not still be able to find charts on the shelf at your FBO... no worries.
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Some may bail out of dealing with it or cut back on services if they have to deal with a third party which would add a tremendous hassle. I don't see many of these "qualified" dealers being all that anxious to become a reseller to smaller dealers unless it's a substantial financial gain. The letter does not address that issue toward those who would supply to "sub-agents."

The jump by ten-fold to five grand was quite a jump. I'd think a more gradual change maybe to $1500 or $2500 would have done more than enough to accomplish their goal. In the end, NACO will shoot itself in the foot.

I see congressional hearings down the road on why pilots have such a difficult time getting their hands on charts at local FBOs. The first inquiry will likely take place after the NTSB investigates an accident as a result of improper planning and failure to obtain current charts.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
As the AOPA article pointed out, and the actual FAA letter shows (http://download.aopa.org/epilot/2008/081125faacharts.pdf), FBOs can continue to purchase charts for resale, they'll just purchase them from an agent that DOES qualify under the new terms. I see no reason you'll not still be able to find charts on the shelf at your FBO... no worries.
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Very true Troy but thats going to crank up the price. Were gonna see $12 or more for VFR charts.
 
AdamZ said:
Very true Troy but thats going to crank up the price. Were gonna see $12 or more for VFR charts.
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Just watch... somebody on here will say it's part of Garmin's plan to make it cheaper for you to just pay the d@mn subscription for charts on the 696. :rolleyes:
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Well, you can always order your charts online via a subscription. Several good dependable affordable vendors out there, and you'll never miss a chart update.
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Which works until you decide to go someplace that you don't normally go and your subscription doesn't cover. There won't be any spontaneous walking in to your local FBO to pick up what you don't have.
 
Graueradler said:
Which works until you decide to go someplace that you don't normally go and your subscription doesn't cover. There won't be any spontaneous walking in to your local FBO to pick up what you don't have.
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That's exactly what would lead to the accident scenario I wrote of earlier.
 
Graueradler said:
Which works until you decide to go someplace that you don't normally go and your subscription doesn't cover. There won't be any spontaneous walking in to your local FBO to pick up what you don't have.
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I canceled too many trips out here because charts weren't available on a walk-in basis. These are local trips- oops- chart's expired. Just do touch & goes at KLNK
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Well, you can always order your charts online via a subscription. Several good dependable affordable vendors out there, and you'll never miss a chart update.
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Yeah, but do you order the entire country? That's a waste of money. I found out about the trip to Bangor on Thursday night at 10:30 PM, and left on Friday. I walked into my local FBO on Friday morning and bought 6 sectionals, 3 low enroutes, 4 books of approach plates, and an A/FD. I already have the luxury of being at one of the few places where they actually carry all the charts for the entire country.

In the last 6 months alone I've flown on 19 sectionals (Billings, Cheyenne, Chicago, Denver, Detroit, Great Falls, Green Bay, Klamath Falls, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Montreal, New York, Omaha, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, San Francisco, Seattle, Twin Cities, Wichita), 10 L-charts (1, 3, 7, 9, 11, 13, 27, 29, 31, 33), and I have about 18 pounds of approach plates and A/FD's. In fact, I've spent around $350 on NACO stuff alone in that time frame, at $4-$8 a pop. And I got it ALL from the local FBO, on a one-time basis. I would never get a subscription for anything other than the Chicago and maybe Green Bay sectionals, since I don't consistently fly on any other chart every cycle - Not even the local L-chart.

This is yet another nail in the coffin. We need more pilots to reverse this trend, or GA as we know it will be gone in less than 50 years. :(
 
Why is it that these government agencies are supported by everyones tax dollars, not just pilots, and not just the FAA, that we also get charged for whatever service they provide us? They run themselves like private companies, yet they have no overhead except their payroll. They work from taxpayer built buildings, etc. etc.

The government requires that we have and use current charts, yet they charge us for these charts? Now they want to make them harder and more expensive to get?

Things that reflect directly on the safety of aircraft and the people who live and work underneath these thousands of pounds of aluminum that are above them, should be just flat out provided to pilots at little or no charge.

What they are proposing is akin to removing traffic flow control signs and signals that are used for vehicular traffic, because it is too expensive to maintain them. No more red lights, no more stop signs, no little lines painted down the middle of roadways.

Charts are a necessity to flight planing and execution, especially to newer VFR pilots. Their availability should never be in question.

I don't mind having to pay a few bucks for them, but I should never have to worry about their availability, neither should the people underneath me.

John
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Well, you can always order your charts online via a subscription. Several good dependable affordable vendors out there, and you'll never miss a chart update.
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So true.. But when you miss place a chart, or it gets ripped, torn, water bottle spilled on, between cycles. There will be no local FBO/Flight School that can sell you one. :nonod:
 
More pilots will get Chartcase type EFB's. They now have solid state hard drives for unlimited altitude. I haven't bought my subscription for a while but I think it was $300 or so for the year. All charts, low enroute, raster, and plates.

Dan
 
I don't disagree in the slightest with your statement that
Charts are a necessity to flight planing and execution, especially to newer VFR pilots.
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...but this old wives' tale needs to go the way of the A/N radio range:
John Baker said:
The government requires that we have and use current charts
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No, the government requires no such thing. You are not required to have a chart in the aircraft, nor is it required to be current if it's there. Nowhere in the rules does it say such a thing. (At least for part 91 operators; I'm not familiar with the requirements for part 121 or 135.) If you're ramp checked, the inspector might comment on the outdated chart, but he won't (and can't) write you up for it. The only way this can bite you as far as enforcement action goes is if you have an accident due to something that was different from the outdated chart you were using to the current one; then, you're liable under the required preflight action (obtain all information pertinent to your flight) rule.

Now, I'll agree wholeheartedly that carrying an outdated chart, or no chart at all, is unwise, but it's not against the rules.
 
That old wives tale is being perpetuated in "THE PILOTS HANDBOOK OF AERONAUTICAL KNOWLEDGE", Fourth edition, by Paul E. Illman. This is a big fat very comprehensive book that covers most everything prior to IFR. At also claims to cover FARS. It cost me $75.00 at Boarders about three years ago.

He flat out states that is against the law to have an expired chart in your aircraft, or to fly without a chart.

I plowed through FAR/AIM looking for substantiation after my flight instructor raised his eyebrows about my authoritative statement.

I could find no such rule, or law.

It still revolves around safety, legal or not. Charts should not be hard to obtain for any pilot. Should they become so, more and more people will be flying with outdated ratty old charts.

John
 
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Let's look at what the FAA has to say about this:

Source: http://naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/faq#q2f

What is the FAA policy for carrying current charts?

The term "charts" is not found in the FAA's Part 91 regulations (other than for large and turbine-powered multiengine airplanes in 91.503[a]). The specific FAA regulation, FAR 91.103 "Preflight Actions," states that each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. What is not specifically addressed in the regulation is a requirement for charts. You should always carry a current chart for safety's sake. An expired chart will not show new frequencies or newly constructed obstructions, some of which could be tall enough to be a hazard along your route of flight.
  • The only FAA/FAR requirements that pertain to charts are:
  • Title 14 CFR section 91.503[a] (Large and Turbojet powered aircraft)
  • Title 14 CFR section 135.83 (Air Carriers-Little Airplane)
  • Title 14 CFR section 121.549 (Air Carrier-Big Airplanes)
  1. The FAA has rendered interpretations that have stated the foregoing. The subject of current charts was thoroughly covered in an article in the FAA's July/August 1997 issue of FAA Aviation News. That article was cleared through the FAA's Chief Counsel's office. In that article the FAA stated the following:
  2. "You can carry old charts in your aircraft." "It is not FAA policy to violate anyone for having outdated charts in the aircraft."
  3. "Not all pilots are required to carry a chart." "91.503..requires the pilot in command of large and multiengine airplanes to have charts." "Other operating sections of the FAR such as Part 121 and Part 135 operations have similar requirements."
  4. ..."since some pilots thought they could be violated for having outdated or no charts on board during a flight, we need to clarify an important issue. As we have said, it is NOT FAA policy to initiate enforcement action against a pilot for having an old chart on board or no chart on board." That's because there is no regulation on the issue.
  5. ..."the issue of current chart data bases in handheld GPS receivers is a non-issue because the units are neither approved by the FAA or required for flight, nor do panel-mounted VFR-only GPS receivers have to have a current data base because, like handheld GPS receivers, the pilot is responsible for pilotage under VFR.
  6. "If a pilot is involved in an enforcement investigation and there is evidence that the use of an out-of-date chart, no chart, or an out-of-date database contributed to the condition that brought on the enforcement investigation, then that information could be used in any enforcement action that might be taken."
If you, as an FAA Safety Inspector, Designated Pilot Examiner, Flight Instructor, or other aviation professional are telling pilots something other than the foregoing then you are incorrect
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So- you can use old charts as long as they don't contribute to your accident.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
In the last 6 months alone I've flown on 19 sectionals...
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You need a subscription service with a "Manifest Destiny" option. :p

Seems I can't find charts for other areas when & where I need them. I have to rely on a combination of four area FBOs when I need something last-minute.

Local charts are not hard to get. I hope it stays that way.

Wisconsin Aviation in Madison is chart heaven yes.
 
I got the VFR Aircharts, and leave the binder in the airplane. Always there if I need it. I don't really need it much because I do my flight planning on line and have the G1000 providing the functional equivalent of a chart. Lucky me.
 
flyersfan31 said:
I got the VFR Aircharts, and leave the binder in the airplane. Always there if I need it. I don't really need it much because I do my flight planning on line and have the G1000 providing the functional equivalent of a chart. Lucky me.
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You magenta line pilot! :p

:D
 
We used to sell charts in the Pilots Shop at our aviation themed hotel. Then, last year, the FAA summarily cut us off for not selling enough to make it worth their while.

No worries -- our FBO, located just 400 yards away still sold them...till now. Now THEY have been cut off, too!

:nonod:
 
Last week, I went down to a local a/p that carries charts and approach plates for the entire country. I was buying charts for my trip this past week. The last cycle of L's expired on 11/20. I went to the FBO on 11/18. My trip was on 11/26. I said I wanted the next cycle of charts. They told me I that they can't sell the next cycle until the current cycle expires. I told them that my trip would not take place until the next cycle was current. They said "Well, you'll have to come back in two days." So I went home and ordered them online. A return trip to the FBO two days later would be a 1 hr round trip, which would negate any savings in shipping costs from ordering online.

I mentioned it to another local FBO that only sells sectionals and they said that is part of the contract they sign to be able to sell charts - no selling next cycle until current cycle expires. I tried to support the local guys, but the screwed up gov't contracts prevented me from doing so. I can understand the safety aspect of it - selling charts with information that isn't "legally" in effect yet, but some common sense leeway would be nice. Oh wait.. It's a gov't contract, 'common sense' is not a defined term in that case.
 
CJones said:
...I mentioned it to another local FBO that only sells sectionals and they said that is part of the contract they sign to be able to sell charts - no selling next cycle until current cycle expires. I tried to support the local guys, but the screwed up gov't contracts prevented me from doing so. I can understand the safety aspect of it - selling charts with information that isn't "legally" in effect yet, but some common sense leeway would be nice. Oh wait.. It's a gov't contract, 'common sense' is not a defined term in that case.
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The charts also have an effective valid START date, don't they?

This is why there are separate definitions for intelligence and "military or government intelligence." :)
 
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