Will Bush Have Been Right All Along?

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Sonar5

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Sonar5
Interesting opinion piece here, especially Bob Kerry's (D) comments.

It's going to be an interesting election cycle, huh?



Will Bush Have Been Right All Along?

Democrats who think they will ride to victory in November on a tide of outrage against an ill-conceived war foisted on the American public by a President who spun the intelligence available to justify action against a nation that was no threat to the U.S. may be about to get their comeuppance.

President Bush's critics on the left vehemently reject the President's contention that Iraq's Saddam Hussein was actively collaborating with Osama bin Laden prior to 9/11 as either a fabrication designed to justify the use of military force to unseat the Iraqi dictator or proof that Bush just doesn't understand how the world works. While agreeing that Saddam was no friend, they have argued that there was and is no evidence that he had anything to do with al Qaeda's attacks on the U.S. or that he posed a real or continuing threat either to the U.S. homeland or to our interests in the region.

Their view was buttressed by the conclusion reached by the 9/11 Commission and by our failure to unearth the weapons of mass destruction everyone from the President on down believed our forces would find once they crossed the Iraqi border. In fact, our failure to find these weapons is often almost gleefully cited by Bush's harshest critics as proof that he "lied to the American people" to get us into a war we don’t seem capable of winning.

Some of his critics within what generally been characterized as the neo-conservative community while disagreeing with the left's across the board antipathy to action against Iraq, have nonetheless suggested that the President shouldn’t have relied on either the existence of weapons of mass destruction or the argument that Saddam was somehow part of the al Qaeda conspiracy because, in their view, both are beside the point. Richard Perle, for example, during a recent panel discussion on Iraq scolded the President for even making these arguments. In his view, the President could and should have simply argued that since Hussein was hostile to the United States and ran a tyrannical, undemocratic regime that mistreated innocent Iraqi citizens, we were right to remove him and right to stay in an effort to plant the seeds of democracy in a region that could only benefit from our doing so.

The President's arguments, dependent as they were on intelligence and its analysis, could have been mistaken, but if it is to be assumed that he believed them to be true, they did justify the use of force against the Iraqi regime. It is possible, after all, to be wrong without lying and it wouldn’t be the first time that this nation has acted on the basis of information that has subsequently turned out to be less than persuasive.

The same cannot be said for the neoconservative case for action against Hussein. It is true that Saddam Hussein was hostile to the U.S. and that he was a tyrant. It is even true that the region and its people might well benefit from a dose of democracy, but even though all these things are true none of them individually nor all of them combined would provide sufficient reason to go to war. This justification which is based more on a messianic desire to rebuild the world in our image than in anything even approaching a hard-headed analysis of the sort of threat historically used to justify the use of force by this country, fails on its face.

Consider the implications of the neoconservative arguments. Mr. Mugabe, the crazed ruler of Zimbabwe has made a mockery of democracy in his country, impoverished her citizens and killed his opponents. Zimbabwe is smack in the middle of a region that could certainly benefit from an infusion of democracy and it is unarguably true that a choice between living in Mugabe's Zimbabwe and Hussein’s Iraq would be no choice at all. Still, no one has seriously proposed sending U.S. troops into that unfortunate nation to rescue her citizens from the tyrant who runs the place.

The President's arguments on behalf of the action he took in Iraq are different in that he could still be proved right. It is conceivable that we could still find the weapons everyone thought he had when we went in or that we could find convincing evidence that he had them and either destroyed them or shipped them off to, say, Syria.

What's more, evidence could surface and, indeed, may be surfacing that Hussein wasn't nearly as innocent as Howard Dean and John Kerry would have us believe. After all, it is possible that the 9/11 Commission and not the President was wrong about Saddam and al Qaeda.

That's what at least one member of the commission may now suspect. Nebraska's former Democratic senator, Bob Kerrey, seems to believe that recent revelations could prove that Hussein and bin Laden were, in fact, actively working against U.S. forces in the region in much closer touch than anyone outside the Bush Administration has yet argued.

Kerrey has described the recent revelation of an Iraqi document outlining a 1995 agreement between Hussein and bin Laden to conduct "joint operations" against U.S. forces as "very significant." While Kerrey doesn't seem prepared to believe yet that the documents thus far made public tie Hussein directly to the 9/11 attacks, he says that they "tie him into a circle that meant to damage the United States." He also suggests that as more material comes out, the ties between Hussein and the terrorists who took down the World Trade Center could become much clearer to all.

The folks at MoveOn.org should consider Kerrey's reaction to the document a shot across their bow from a Democrat who believes that the President may be proved right after all and who suspects that the proof could come to light before November's elections.

The Bush Administrations prosecution of the war in Iraq has come under fire from Republican and Democratic critics alike. Some of it has been legitimate and some of it results from the nervousness of politicians facing an election in troubled times, but the Democratic left's arguments against the President could cause a real backlash later this year if, as now seems increasingly likely, evidence comes out making it clear that George W. Bush, and not his opponents, has known what he was talking about all along.
 
I'd be only mildly curious to know the definition of winning by those that think we're incapable of it in Iraq.

Former General (ret.) Sada of the Iraqi Air Force has been on TV recently a few times telling about how his pilots flew yellow barrels with skull & crossbones (WMD) on them to Syria just before we invaded. Shouldn't we checkout that accomplice nation to our enemies or should we suppose Syria was low on weed killer?

Unfortunately there are still WMD there and others plus myself have seen some of them and continue to see them, -they're often wearing turbins.
 
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There are lots of interesting tidbits that are barely reported.

The Iraqi's bury their jets in the sand, but never had any wmd. Please....

The Naive are simply in denial.

They found WMD in Iraq, but some then want to define a specific quantity to justify their warped agenda that saddam didn't have any at all.
 
Woohooo Got another UNSIGNED neg Rep...

Who cares. This type of trolling useless on this board

Response:
It's political content designed to bring discussion. Simply pass it on by if you don't like it. No one is forcing you to read anything here.

I like that the poster apparently does not care if the President of The United States turns out to be right all along.

Too Funny..

Party of the left... Throw out everything so the sheeple see it especially if it is wrong, as long as it suits their agenda. Then pretend it is no longer important when proven wrong....

Too funny....'

Thanks for the neg rep, I'm collecting them as badges of honor. :)
 
Really? Someone feels "who cares"? that the President may have been right? Now THAT'S a sad commentary. All the hate and vitrol being spewed against the President becomes invalidated to the point where "who cares" is the response?

"Facts be damned, my mind is made up."
 
Got another neg rep... Yippeee..... And the hits just keep on coming...

These things are hilarious... :)

Making a public issue of private feedback (ie: reputation) is in poor taste.

Response:
Private feedback, it's not feedback, it's unsigned personal attacks of which the intended recipient has no way of responding except in the forum.

Hey if people signed them, I'd respond in private as I have already done in the past.

They choose to not sign them, I choose to respond to them the same as I choose to respond to this one.

Nothing in the rules against that one.


If so, point it out. :) :)

Hilarious.... Simply too funny....

People want to bash in private but don't want it pointed out. What a hoot.....

Poor taste is not having the courage to sign a post to someone that they have to hide behind rep posts, lest anyone figure out their little hit and run's....

Thanks for the neg reps, though, I appreciate it...
 
gkainz said:
Really? Someone feels "who cares"? that the President may have been right? Now THAT'S a sad commentary. All the hate and vitrol being spewed against the President becomes invalidated to the point where "who cares" is the response?

"Facts be damned, my mind is made up."

JOC, are you really surprised?
 
Trolling is the first rule that pops to my immediate mind.
 
Furthermore:
Rules of Conduct said:
Private Messages received on these Forums are to be considered private and are not to be posted publicly unless the sender of the private message agrees.
The Reputation system is intended as an anonymous and confidential system of providing feedback, both positive and negative, without making a public issue of it.

If you are receiving reputation remarks which you feel cross the line of being a personal attack, then the appropriate course of action is to contact a member of the staff and ask them to open an investigation.
 
Greebo said:
Furthermore:

The Reputation system is intended as an anonymous and confidential system of providing feedback, both positive and negative, without making a public issue of it.

If you are receiving reputation remarks which you feel cross the line of being a personal attack, then the appropriate course of action is to contact a member of the staff and ask them to open an investigation.

Since one has the option of declining to receive private messages, and therefore avoiding such unwelcome posts that Sonar is receiving, wouldn't it be somewhat more equitable to enable a member to also decline to receive rep points, since they are now also considered private messages? One has the ability to respond to PMs, or to choose not to receive them. To say that one is required to submit to repeated anon input, with no ability to respond or ignore them as you can PMs, seems not quite right somehow, especially if they are considered to be PMs.

Perhaps better stuck in software support, but I don't know how to quote the post I'm replying to in another forum.
 
That is the intention of the reputation system, Joe - anonymous feedback not intended for public discussion - welcome or unwelcome. (Mind you, Joe not you seems to be welcoming them quite gleefully, which is why trolling popped into my mind first). Its not intended to be something to be replied to, its intended to give the recipient a sense for how well their content is being received by the community at large. Revelling in the negative feedback of the community at large strikes me as acting bad just to get attention. Two ROC strikes in one post, to my way of thinking.

Now if Sonar is getting actual personal attacks via reputation, that's a wholly different matter - and one we will be happy to deal with.

Consider this notice that I've brought the issue of publicising Rep comments up for discussion in the MC and a caution that it might be wise to cease and decist before any decision to make it formally actionable is made. (And if its made, it will be announced publicly.)
 
Greebo said:
Furthermore:

The Reputation system is intended as an anonymous and confidential system of providing feedback, both positive and negative, without making a public issue of it.

If you are receiving reputation remarks which you feel cross the line of being a personal attack, then the appropriate course of action is to contact a member of the staff and ask them to open an investigation.
And how was one supposed to know that rep points were private messages.

Under the software, Private messages are signed and you know who the sender is.

Was there somewhere that prior to now the MC states reps were indeed private messages?

SO hit and runs are ok huh.'

FIne I guess ill be repping everyone I can from now on, and I won't be posting them until clairified.

Wel, I'm off to give people the same rep comments I receive. :)
 
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I don't know how you conclude that "hit and runs" are ok, when I've expressly said that personal attacks are another matter altogether, and that we will be happy to deal with them on a case by case basis.

But letting you know that your content of choice isn't particularly of interest to them strikes me as feedback, not an attack. Still, if you feel that it does constitute an attack, we've spelled out the procedures for dealing with them in rep remarks before, I'm sure you can figure out how to proceed.

And Joe (not williams) if this were actionable already, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The MC hasn't made any decisions yet, and no moderator action has been taken here.
 
Greebo said:
Furthermore:


Originally Posted by Rules of Conduct
Private Messages received on these Forums are to be considered private and are not to be posted publicly unless the sender of the private message agrees.
The Reputation system is intended as an anonymous and confidential system of providing feedback, both positive and negative, without making a public issue of it.

If you are receiving reputation remarks which you feel cross the line of being a personal attack, then the appropriate course of action is to contact a member of the staff and ask them to open an investigation.
Greebo,

Your furthermore has led me to another thought which I would like clarification on.

I don't see Reps as a Private Message and find no where in the ROC where it even remotely says that. Here is the way I see it.

You quoted a post about private messages being considered private. Absolutely I agree 100% with that.

However how can a rep post UNSIGNED be considered a private message, since there is absolutely no way for a member who is the recipient to get agreement from the sender to post since they don't bother to sign it.

if it is unsigned, it is not atrributable to anyone unless they admit it, and why shouldn't the recipient be able to respond to the comment in the same thread the rep was assigned to. Seems logical to me.

If it is feedback as you suggest, the same applies. Except the recipient has no way to provide their own feedback on the post unless they post in the same thread.

And this one:

The Reputation system is intended as an anonymous and confidential system of providing feedback, both positive and negative, without making a public issue of it.


Has that appeared somewhere else besides this thread. I don't remember seeing it when I signed on here in the ROC.
 
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The management council is currently discussing the Rules of Conduct and the Reputation system.

When that discussion is completed, an appropriate notice will be posted.

In the meantime, please send comments on this topic to one of the MC members via private message rather than cluttering this forum with continuing discussion of this topic.

Thanks.

BillS.
(Moderator, Hangar Talk)
 
Interesting opinion piece here, especially Bob Kerry's (D) comments.

It's going to be an interesting election cycle, huh?



Will Bush Have Been Right All Along?

Democrats who think they will ride to victory in November on a tide of outrage against an ill-conceived war foisted on the American public by a President who spun the intelligence available to justify action against a nation that was no threat to the U.S. may be about to get their comeuppance.

President Bush's critics on the left vehemently reject the President's contention that Iraq's Saddam Hussein was actively collaborating with Osama bin Laden prior to 9/11 as either a fabrication designed to justify the use of military force to unseat the Iraqi dictator or proof that Bush just doesn't understand how the world works. While agreeing that Saddam was no friend, they have argued that there was and is no evidence that he had anything to do with al Qaeda's attacks on the U.S. or that he posed a real or continuing threat either to the U.S. homeland or to our interests in the region.

Their view was buttressed by the conclusion reached by the 9/11 Commission and by our failure to unearth the weapons of mass destruction everyone from the President on down believed our forces would find once they crossed the Iraqi border. In fact, our failure to find these weapons is often almost gleefully cited by Bush's harshest critics as proof that he "lied to the American people" to get us into a war we don’t seem capable of winning.

Some of his critics within what generally been characterized as the neo-conservative community while disagreeing with the left's across the board antipathy to action against Iraq, have nonetheless suggested that the President shouldn’t have relied on either the existence of weapons of mass destruction or the argument that Saddam was somehow part of the al Qaeda conspiracy because, in their view, both are beside the point. Richard Perle, for example, during a recent panel discussion on Iraq scolded the President for even making these arguments. In his view, the President could and should have simply argued that since Hussein was hostile to the United States and ran a tyrannical, undemocratic regime that mistreated innocent Iraqi citizens, we were right to remove him and right to stay in an effort to plant the seeds of democracy in a region that could only benefit from our doing so.

The President's arguments, dependent as they were on intelligence and its analysis, could have been mistaken, but if it is to be assumed that he believed them to be true, they did justify the use of force against the Iraqi regime. It is possible, after all, to be wrong without lying and it wouldn’t be the first time that this nation has acted on the basis of information that has subsequently turned out to be less than persuasive.

The same cannot be said for the neoconservative case for action against Hussein. It is true that Saddam Hussein was hostile to the U.S. and that he was a tyrant. It is even true that the region and its people might well benefit from a dose of democracy, but even though all these things are true none of them individually nor all of them combined would provide sufficient reason to go to war. This justification which is based more on a messianic desire to rebuild the world in our image than in anything even approaching a hard-headed analysis of the sort of threat historically used to justify the use of force by this country, fails on its face.

Consider the implications of the neoconservative arguments. Mr. Mugabe, the crazed ruler of Zimbabwe has made a mockery of democracy in his country, impoverished her citizens and killed his opponents. Zimbabwe is smack in the middle of a region that could certainly benefit from an infusion of democracy and it is unarguably true that a choice between living in Mugabe's Zimbabwe and Hussein’s Iraq would be no choice at all. Still, no one has seriously proposed sending U.S. troops into that unfortunate nation to rescue her citizens from the tyrant who runs the place.

The President's arguments on behalf of the action he took in Iraq are different in that he could still be proved right. It is conceivable that we could still find the weapons everyone thought he had when we went in or that we could find convincing evidence that he had them and either destroyed them or shipped them off to, say, Syria.

What's more, evidence could surface and, indeed, may be surfacing that Hussein wasn't nearly as innocent as Howard Dean and John Kerry would have us believe. After all, it is possible that the 9/11 Commission and not the President was wrong about Saddam and al Qaeda.

That's what at least one member of the commission may now suspect. Nebraska's former Democratic senator, Bob Kerrey, seems to believe that recent revelations could prove that Hussein and bin Laden were, in fact, actively working against U.S. forces in the region in much closer touch than anyone outside the Bush Administration has yet argued.

Kerrey has described the recent revelation of an Iraqi document outlining a 1995 agreement between Hussein and bin Laden to conduct "joint operations" against U.S. forces as "very significant." While Kerrey doesn't seem prepared to believe yet that the documents thus far made public tie Hussein directly to the 9/11 attacks, he says that they "tie him into a circle that meant to damage the United States." He also suggests that as more material comes out, the ties between Hussein and the terrorists who took down the World Trade Center could become much clearer to all.

The folks at MoveOn.org should consider Kerrey's reaction to the document a shot across their bow from a Democrat who believes that the President may be proved right after all and who suspects that the proof could come to light before November's elections.

The Bush Administrations prosecution of the war in Iraq has come under fire from Republican and Democratic critics alike. Some of it has been legitimate and some of it results from the nervousness of politicians facing an election in troubled times, but the Democratic left's arguments against the President could cause a real backlash later this year if, as now seems increasingly likely, evidence comes out making it clear that George W. Bush, and not his opponents, has known what he was talking about all along.
 
A final point of clarification, and then I agree with Bill that this needs to be put to rest until discussions are concluded.

From one of the sticky threads in Site Feedback and Support, dated February 25, 2005.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57

Pertinent exerpt, emphasis added.
Reputation is a means by which the community at large can express their perception of an individual member without making that opinion public.

By posting the reputation comment publicly, you are making that opinion public.

Reputation is a one way feedback system, not a private message system. It is intended as such to protect the giver of negative feedback from spiteful retribution.
 
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