Will ADSB help controllers end "type unknown"?

Discussion in 'Change to my Frequency...' started by AggieMike88, Mar 13, 2017.

  1. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    occassionally, while cruising along on FF or IFR plan, the controller provides a traffic callout with the declaration of "type unknown" meaning he has a radar return showing where it is in relation to me, but cannot advise on what silhouette to be looking for.

    With the aircraft detailed encoded into the ADS-B Out device, will the controller have access to this and can advise others what the "unknown" target is?
     
  2. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    To the extent that the other aircraft is ADS-B compliant. I suspect a lot of folks may drag their feet on equipping.
     
  3. JonH

    JonH Pre-Flight

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    Traffic 12 o'clock same altitude opposite direction type unknown now that i've said all that he's 500 feet, report him in sight.
     
  4. weilke

    weilke Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Once flocks of birds, BNSF freight trains and wind farms get ADSB-out.
     
  5. Let'sgoflying!

    Let'sgoflying! Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    One cool thing is that the radar tags will have a new numeric display of "Unpaid balance".
    "N1234, climb and maintain FL190, showing your ATC balance overdue by $1050.00"
    (if more than 30 days overdue, the tag shows in flashing red)
     
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  6. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I can't answer your question as to if it will ever happen where we know types of aircraft we aren't working but I can guarantee there is almost zero chance we will be able to Jan 2020. The FAA doesn't move fast enough with equipping facilities with new tech.
     
  7. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I doubt it, ADSB OUT isn't really as much about "saftey" or being useful as it is for other things.

    Read some wiki links, watch Snowden, tell me what you think the motives of our overloard really are.
     
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  8. RV10flyer

    RV10flyer Pattern Altitude

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    Not anytime soon for my bird.
     
  9. MickYoumans

    MickYoumans Cleared for Takeoff

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    I imagine the planes flying around not talking to ATC on flight following will be the same airplanes that won't be getting equipped with ADS-B out.
     
  10. LT4247

    LT4247 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Anybody know how long after 2020 ATC plans to use radar?
    In other words,,at what point will ATC switch entirely to ADS-B rendering our Mode-C worthless. Am i missing something?
     
  11. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I think you will always have radar. A lot of airspace still won't require ADS-B and will need traditional primary and secondary surveillance radar to serve them. Plenty of primary targets out there that will still need traffic advisories on also. Another thing is weather radar that's provided to benefit pilots without NEXRAD. The ASR-11 for example uses primary radar to provide 6 levels of precip intensities. Without ATC radar, we'd lose some pretty important safety benefits.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
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  12. JOhnH

    JOhnH Final Approach

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    I think that soon, radar will be like some other navaids. As they break, they won't be repaired.
     
  13. Shawn

    Shawn En-Route

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    During my SoCal Tracon tour I learned that they use what was called Fused Radar to generate the images on the scope. Rather than looking at returns from just one radar ping on the scope, the controllers are actually looking at the culmination of data from several radars and input sources which gives them a more accurate and complete picture.

    The ADS-B system was giving them so may false and inaccurate readings they unplugged that as one of their input sources from the fused system.

    So based on that alone to answer your question...they will be using radar for quite some time still!
     
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  14. John Collins

    John Collins Pattern Altitude

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    Yes, the FAA stated in the original rule that they intend to keep 100% of the primary radars and more than half of the secondary radars covering all the airspace above 18000 MSL and in the terminal areas. The rumour that the FAA ever intended to eliminate all radars is just that, never was true and it is an OWT.
     
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  15. John Collins

    John Collins Pattern Altitude

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    No. The aircraft type is not part of the data that the ADS-B Out broadcasts. Not all aircraft will equip or need to equip by 2020, so there will still be transponder only aircraft flying, mostly in the airspace outside of Class B and C and below 10,000 MSL. For those aircraft that are equipped, they will usually broadcast their N number, but some aircraft that use the UAT ADS-B Out will be anonymous and broadcast something like "VFR" and can't be identified by ATC. When ATC calls out traffic that they are not providing services to, they are just providing its location and if it squawks an altitude, the altitude it is reporting. The standard call out for such traffic is "type and altitude unknown" or "altitude XXXX unverified".
     
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  16. Rockymountain

    Rockymountain Pre-Flight

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    I imagine that most of the little legacy planes in rural America will never have ADS-B. So if you don't have active traffic, and ATC doesn't have radar, those planes will be invisible. I doubt many with a 20-100K airplane would get ADS-B. There is on need to have it, and no tangible benefit for those guys flying on a 3-pack or 6-pack VFR to get it. In our flying career, at least mode C and radar will be the way those planes are seen.
     
  17. Dave S.

    Dave S. Pre-Flight

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    First, "type unknown" is no longer the correct phraseology. That went out years ago. But controllers still keep the old habits and teach the old habits. If unknown nothing will be said if done correctly.

    Second, yes ADS-B will give controllers a/c type info.

    tex
     
  18. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    So you're telling me some moron told controllers to NOT tell pilots of type unknown targets?

    Are they looking to make things less safe for any reason in particular?
     
  19. kkoran

    kkoran Cleared for Takeoff

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    No, they tell them about the traffic; but they don't say " type unknown" if they don't know it.
     
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  20. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Pre-takeoff checklist

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    It's useless. If I issue traffic and it's "altitude indicates" then it's obvious I'm not talking to the other guy to verify his type. If I am talking to him then his altitude is verified and the type is then issued.
     
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  21. Dave S.

    Dave S. Pre-Flight

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    Yeah. I should have been more clear. If type is unknown nothing should be said about the type but traffic will still be or should be issued.

    tex
     
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  22. Pilawt

    Pilawt En-Route

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    A few weeks ago Albuquerque Center called out traffic to me and said, "Type unknown, but based on the N-number it's probably an Archer." I assume he probably recognized the number from the ADS-B output as belonging to one of the local training academies.
     
  23. John Collins

    John Collins Pattern Altitude

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    So where will they get type information from since ADS-B does not broadcast it as part of the ADS-B data?
     
  24. Dave S.

    Dave S. Pre-Flight

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    If the FAA doesn't include it in future requirements for ES parameters it can use in house database corolation to match flight ID to type for datablock display.

    I'm not sure which way they intend to go.

    tex
     
  25. BigBadLou

    BigBadLou En-Route

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    So if type is part of the encoded ADS-B Out datastream, can it be erased for VFR flights, just like the tail number (on the more intelligent boxes)?
     
  26. John Collins

    John Collins Pattern Altitude

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    Since type is absolutely not part of the encoded ADS-B Out datastream, the question answers itself.
     
  27. BigBadLou

    BigBadLou En-Route

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    Thanks!
     
  28. Indiana_Pilot

    Indiana_Pilot Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If they wanted to get crafty.. they could link to a database to figure type using N Number..
     
  29. Indiana_Pilot

    Indiana_Pilot Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I don't see a lot of folks dragging their feet.. I am seeing more and more ads-b 978/1090 traffic everyday.. I still see TIS-B traffic but it is becoming less and less everyday.. I am close (20 miles or so) from a National Guard base.. I see Blackhawks all the time and they are still only spitting out Mode C.. I see them on TIS-B.. I would think the government would be the first to equip!
     
  30. BigBadLou

    BigBadLou En-Route

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    You are right ... but ... we're talking government here. "Crafty" or "initiative" are not words I'd use in connection with government workers. :)
     
  31. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    They have some equipped but they're dragging their feet. Problem is, at least for the Black Hawk, you don't have a WAAS GPS. Their IFR GPS was never meant for precision GPS approaches so now they're jumping through hoops to get the software updated to meet the deadline. The newest, glass M model wasn't even equipped with an IFR GPS at all!:D

    Their priorities are avionics that are used in combat and not "nice to haves" for flying in the NAS.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017