Why you always check for NOTAMS

[stingray]

I was covering the local 4H rocket launching today at the airport. Had a nice long range lens on to capture the rockets at peak liftoff. Nice big crowd. NOTAM posted to close the airport and notice within 5 miles.

Along comes a 177 crosses over the runway and turns downwind. Announcer says "We get a NOTAM to close the airport but sometimes pilots just like to see what is going on" "It looks like he is leaving" I just stood there knowing he probably just turned down wind and was going to land. The announcer went on saying not to flattering things about pilots. Not everyone there knew I was a pilot and I still felt 2' tall. The plane did turn base and final and landed. Turned around taxied back and took back off. I captured the photos as he left. Damning evidence to say the least. You never know who may be around when you do something stupid. Not only did he land but then turned around and took back off rather than waiting till the NOTAM passed. Hard even to forgive the first infraction but come on the second. After that I went and got my portable just in case. To top it all off he turns down wind again and leaves almost over the airport.

Maybe this thread goes in "never again", but I think it is why pilots die or at least crash. How many times do you think a situation can be corrected after an initial mistake? compound it with a second? but throw in three and your just asking for trouble.

Dan

 

[stingray]

I checked to see the NOTAM on the internet through Chartcase and did not see one. I called FSS and they said there were no NOTAMS for KGTG. So do not really know what's up. Probably the village forgot to send it or LM did not post it. I am going to check on Monday to see who is at fault. I don't know how else to check from the internet if FSS can not find it.

Dan

 

[gprellwitz]

Points out that if you're posting a NOTAM you should always call in to make sure it's in the system!

 

[bbchien]

Serial Number
17700910 Type Registration IndividualManufacturer NameCESSNA Certificate Issue Date11/28/1994 Model177 StatusValid Type AircraftFixed Wing Single-EngineType EngineReciprocating Pending Number ChangeNone DealerNo Date Change AuthorizedNone Mode S Code50603642 MFR Year1968 Fractional OwnerNO



Registered Owner

Name
Street
CityCOON RAPIDS StateMINNESOTA Zip Code 55448 CountyHENNEPIN CountryUNITED STATES

 

[KennyFlys]

Points out that if you're posting a NOTAM you should always call in to make sure it's in the system!

When discussing special airspace with students, I point to the note regarding "Other times by NOTAM." I then tell them some NOTAMs do not make it into the system or a briefer may fail to give that information even when asked. For that reason, always talk to the agency overseeing a particular airspace. If they indicate it's cold or clear you through based on their information, you're at least covering your bases to the last degree.

 

[qbynewbie]

I think it's a good idea to be cautious about posting the names and addresses of people on public Internet forums, even if that information can be found elsewhere.

 

[RogerT]

I checked to see the NOTAM on the internet through Chartcase and did not see one. I called FSS and they said there were no NOTAMS for KGTG. So do not really know what's up. Probably the village forgot to send it or LM did not post it. I am going to check on Monday to see who is at fault. I don't know how else to check from the internet if FSS can not find it.

Dan

Soooo ... we've had a public lynching of a pilot and he did nothing wrong
based on the NOTAM info available to him?

Tsk Tsk.

 

[poadeleted20]

Soooo ... we've had a public lynching of a pilot and he did nothing wrong based on the NOTAM info available to him?

Does seem to be so. It appears the organizers didn't do their NOTAM homework properly, and unwisely chose not to monitor the CTAF so they could warn off any aircraft who didn't get the NOTAM (even if it had existed).

 

[sarangan]

Does seem to be so. It appears the organizers didn't do their NOTAM homework properly, and unwisely chose not to monitor the CTAF so they could warn off any aircraft who didn't get the NOTAM (even if it had existed).

Even if the NOTAM was in the system properly, the airport should still make reasonable attempts to notify pilots through other means. Many pilots don't always check NOTAMS for local flights, and those who are transitioning the area are unlikely to be checking NOTAMS for airports they will be overflying. The information should be appended to AWOS/ASOS, and someone should be listening on CTAF and warn pilots in the area. It would not be a bad idea to have a couple of portable "runway-closed" markers at either ends of the runway. A lot could be done beyond simply making a phone call to FSS, and in this case even that looks like it was not been done properly. If some pilot gets killed by your rocket, you can bet that the family's lawyers will be checking if you made every reasonable attempt to make this event safe.

 

[poadeleted20]

Many pilots don't always check NOTAMS for local flights,

If you're landing anywhere other than your airport of departure, it's not a "local" flight, and you really need to check the NOTAMS. Many conditions which would not be visually obvious (e.g., a turf runway that is six inches deep mud) could really spoil your day, especially if there's nobody there to warn you off. The FAA made it crystal-clear in Administrator v. Ferguson that you are obligated to check before every flight. Ferguson landed, reloaded and took off again and violated a NOTAM issued 22 minutes before that takeoff. The FAA deep-fried him for doing so even though he'd checked before his first takeoff about 3 hours earlier, well before the NOTAM was issued.

 

[bbchien]

Honest to g_d, we have to clean our own. I mean, he took OFF again....

 

[qbynewbie]

Honest to g_d, we have to clean our own. I mean, he took OFF again....

Bruce,

Perhaps I'm confused and I'm totally willing to admit that. But if the NOTAMS were not published, how was he supposed to know that the airport was closed? Further, how was he supposed to know once he landed that the airport was closed?

In other words, you have this guy who is maybe thinking that he'll come in and do a full-stop landing and then take off again. Let's assume he checked the NOTAMS and found nothing published.

Nothing that I can see so far in this thread leads me to believe that he did anything wrong. He landed at an airport that was not NOTAM'd closed. He turned around and took off again -- at an airport that he still, evidently, thought was open.

The OP indicates that the "announcer" announced information to the crowd about the plane. But he doesn't mention at all if anyone contacted the pilot. For all we know, the pilot was not given any information at all about the airport closure.

Were the runways closed with an X? If not, why not???

Honestly, right now, it sounds more like the people on the ground screwed up than the guy in the plane. If I'm wrong, please help me to understand how and why.

 

[docmirror]

Assess blame first, then make up rules to justify. Now you know why I do my best to keep my personal information, well - personal.

 

[sarangan]

If you're landing anywhere other than your airport of departure, it's not a "local" flight, and you really need to check the NOTAMS. Many conditions which would not be visually obvious (e.g., a turf runway that is six inches deep mud) could really spoil your day, especially if there's nobody there to warn you off. The FAA made it crystal-clear in Administrator v. Ferguson that you are obligated to check before every flight. Ferguson landed, reloaded and took off again and violated a NOTAM issued 22 minutes before that takeoff. The FAA deep-fried him for doing so even though he'd checked before his first takeoff about 3 hours earlier, well before the NOTAM was issued.

No argument there, the regulations are clear that one must check NOTAMS. But that doesn't mean everyone does, so the responsibility also falls on the airport operator take additional measures to inform pilots.

If you take a poll from pilots on a Sunday afternoon and ask them if they have checked NOTAMs for all airports they intend on visiting, I doubt you will get many nods.

 

[bbchien]

DID I FAIL to mention that he took off during an airshow? Notam shomotam. Don't be doing that.....!!

And, even if there was no notam properly posted, STILL don't be doing that. Better yet, don't be landing when you see (1) a huge crowd of people (2) An annoucer's booth 8 feet above the crowd (3) oh I coud go on and on.

So if someone brings it to the attention of the authorities and there was no NOTAM, the guys legally in the clear and the operation of the airport gets dinged. That's GOOD. If the guy is a fool, and there was a notam, he gets dinged. Because departing during an airshow is like, next to idiocy.

That's how I feel about it. PERIOD.

As for QbY, the minute you post a photo with the N number visible, the rest is public knowledge.

 

[docmirror]

DID I FAIL to mention that he took off during an airshow? Notam shomotam. Don't be doing that.....!!

And, even if there was no notam properly posted, STILL don't be doing that. Better yet, don't be landing when you see (1) a huge crowd of people (2) An annoucer's booth 8 feet above the crowd (3) oh I coud go on and on.

So if someone brings it to the attention of the authorities and there was no NOTAM, the guys legally in the clear and the operation of the airport gets dinged. That's GOOD. If the guy is a fool, and there was a notam, he gets dinged. Because departing during an airshow is like, next to idiocy.

That's how I feel about it. PERIOD.

Well, I think you failed(epic) by posting the guys info here, and continue to leave it up, even after we've established that he prolly didn't break any rules. I didn't see the info on where he took off at an airshow.

I've landed and taken off a bunch, and I mean a whole lot of times where there is a large crowd, announcers booth, lots of cars, and on, and on. Doesn't bother me a bit.

Airports are for the landing and departing of aircraft. If you want to use if for some other purpose, make it very, extremely, clear that you have co-opted the place for alternate use.

 

[poadeleted20]

No argument there, the regulations are clear that one must check NOTAMS. But that doesn't mean everyone does, so the responsibility also falls on the airport operator take additional measures to inform pilots.

I don't think there's any legal precedent, regulation, or finding to support that position. While it might be nice, it's not a "responsibility." That term applies only to the requirement for the airport operator to post the NOTAM, and for the pilot to check for it.

If you take a poll from pilots on a Sunday afternoon and ask them if they have checked NOTAMs for all airports they intend on visiting, I doubt you will get many nods.

I've no doubt you're correct, but your mother probably asked you at one point, "If Billy ran and jumped off a cliff, would you do the same?" The fact that many pilots are remiss in this area doesn't justify anyone else's failure to live up to their responsibilities.

 

[qbynewbie]

As for QbY, the minute you post a photo with the N number visible, the rest is public knowledge.

Well, that's true but that doesn't mean it's ok to post it on a forum. Taking that leap would suggest that it's ok to post the names and addresses of owners whenever any picture is printed of any plane with its N-number visible. I doubt very many people here would support that notion.

Privacy is important. It's easy to find out and disclose information about other folks these days but I think that makes it even more important to resist the temptation to do so without great reason. In this case, it appears that this pilot didn't break any laws or regulations. If new information is provided that counters that judgment, then I stand ready to change my mind. But, at the moment, I don't think it's fair or right to be posting his name and address on a public Internet forum.

 

[bbchien]

OK all, I hear the hoofbeats of political censorship by Qby. I've taken the guy's public FAA registration down. Long may he wear the Darwin medal in anonymonity.

All you have to go to http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/ and put in the published N- number.

It's not a matter of whether or not there was a notam or not. It's a matter of the lack of wisdom arriving and departing in the middle of an airshow. The heirs Hayden Scheaffer live on.

 

[qbynewbie]

If Dan takes the picture down, I'll unpost the FAA registration file. All you have to go to http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/ and put in the published N- number.

It's not a matter of whether or not there was a notam or not. It's a matter of the lack of wisdom arriving and departing in the middle of an airshow.

I know, Bruce. I'm probably sensitive because my company deals with information. And because my sister had her identity stolen and had a hell of a time getting things straightened out. She ended up tracking down the identity thieves herself (online, not in person, although it almost came to that) because the police wouldn't bother.

So I try really hard to err on side of making sure that I don't publish identifying information about other people on the Internet. I just see it as a kindness and hope others will do the same.

 

[gprellwitz]

Bruce,
I see reference to a 4H rocket launching, not an airshow. And there is reason to believe that the NOTAM at least was not properly disseminated, if it was ever published at all. I'm not sure that I would recognize a rocket launching? Does it happen at the runway? On the ramp? In the field around the runway? I could easily believe that it's not something that would be intuitively obvious as a dangerous situation, unless they're carrying pyrotechnic devices. Sounds like they stopped launching while the airplane was in the pattern.

Dan, what did you find when you did the additional research? Also, did anyone attempt to contact the on the radio? It doesn't sound as if they did. (And I'm not saying they had any obligation to do so; just curious.)

 

[bbchien]

I sure wouldn't be departing when rockets were being launched. The $4.00 motor types can only get to 1200 agl, but some of the $50 types can get to 6000. There is an NTSB accident report of one that penetrated a C210's skin, fouled the elevator control cables, and the guy crashed. It's been some years, but it's just not too bright to even go there. Or depart there.

Grant, anywhere there's a big crowd at an airport means something is happening and is a good clue to stay away. Had a near tragedy today at the C75 fly in breakfast, and that involves kids and propellors.

Such crowds, most likely don't involve aviators.

 

[qbynewbie]

Thank you, Bruce.

 

[sarangan]

I sure wouldn't be departing when rockets were being launched. The $4.00 motor types can only get to 1200 agl, but some of the $50 types can get to 6000. There is an NTSB accident report of one that penetrated a C210's skin, fouled the elevator control cables, and the guy crashed. It's been some years, but it's just not too bright to even go there. Or depart there.

Grant, anywhere there's a big crowd at an airport means something is happening and is a good clue to stay away. Had a near tragedy today at the C75 fly in breakfast, and that involves kids and propellors.

Such crowds, most likely don't involve aviators.

At my home airport they have many events that don't involve closing the airport. Fund raising dinners, open houses and even the Airventure cup race starts here. All of these attract large crowds on the ramp, and sometimes the whole ramp is turned into a parking lot. The airport remains open for traffic, and pilots use common sense when taxiing. If the runway is closed, they have always towed a flashing X sign to the runway in addition to issuing NOTAMs. Despite the numerous public events, we've never had a ground incident as far as I can remember.

This particular case under discussion illustrates why the airport should take additional precautionary measures beyond simply making a phone call to the FSS. NOTAMs are not bullet proof. The FSS could forget to enter the NOTAM into the system, or an airplane could be airborne before the NOTAM is issued. In theory all pilots should be checking NOTAMs before turning final to a runway to make sure it is still open, but we know that is not practical nor is it ever done. It takes only a small effort to monitor CTAF and post large signs to potentially save someones life, so I would consider it negligent if the airport did not take those measures and someone dies as a result.

 

[gprellwitz]

I think I understand where Bruce is coming from here, but I think I tend to agree with Andrew's take on it. Absent a NOTAM, I don't think that a crowd would dissuade me from landing or even taking off again, though I'd certainly be watching for people more than normal. I wouldn't, however, be watching for rockets, which I fully agree are very dangerous!

 

[docmirror]

OK all, I hear the hoofbeats of political censorship by Qby. I've taken the guy's public FAA registration down. Long may he wear the Darwin medal in anonymonity.

Nonsense. These are your fellow pilots talking, not some 'crat. Also, the objection is not for the benefit of the gummint, or a third party, but strictly for the benefit of another fellow pilot. I still don't see what he did wrong. He flew to an airport that was putatively open for use. He did what pilots do, and landed. Then he took off and went away, QED.



Like I said before, wanna close an airport? Do it the right way.

 

[steingar]

My airport has crowds for all kind of things. I wouldn't beg off just because of that. This whole thing is the airport's fault.

 

[vontresc]

I used to fly Large Model Rockets (Far 101 >1500g weight and > 125g of propellant). From what I remember even though we filed a NOTAM with the local control tower (We flew at Bong Rec Area, so we usually talked to MKE, and ENW), it did not grant us exclusive use of the airspace. This 4H launch may have been different, but we as the rocket flyers were expected to practice "See and avoid". There were numerous occasions where we had to shut down the rance for curious aircraft.

Personally I thought that the NOTAM kept people as much away, as it brought out curious pilots to see what the hell we were doing. IIRC some of the controllers we talked to to file the NOTAMS actually came out to see the launches.

When you see a Rocket NOTAM it is a good idea to stay away these things are pretty big, and powerful

 

[Merf]

Thank you for this post. We are having a 150 yr county celebration (approved by FAA) fireworks at 45R. One thing I did miss, I do believe it is required to have the "X's" on the runway even if its temporary. Went thru this when I had the airport and we were in runway construction. Notams issued and deleted almost daily, and some errors were made. But the big X's give a pilot no excuse.

Thanks.

Merf

 

[poadeleted20]

It's a violation of the FAR's to launch rockets at an airport without ATC notification per 14 CFR 101.25, and it's the rocket shooter's responsibility to make sure that happens. Telling the airport manager is also required (14 CFR 101.22(b)), but not sufficient. Sounds like the folks running this operation didn't do as required, and maybe they, not the pilot mentioned, should be reported to the FAA. Had one of their rockets whizzed by my plane, there is no doubt I would have called law enforcement to shut them down ASAP, and the FSDO on Monday to report them for FAA action.

 

[dmccormack]

It's a violation of the FAR's to launch rockets at an airport without ATC notification per 14 CFR 101.25, and it's the rocket shooter's responsibility to make sure that happens. Telling the airport manager is also required (14 CFR 101.22(b)), but not sufficient. Sounds like the folks running this operation didn't do as required, and maybe they, not the pilot mentioned, should be reported to the FAA. Had one of their rockets whizzed by my plane, there is no doubt I would have called law enforcement to shut them down ASAP, and the FSDO on Monday to report them for FAA action.

What can the FAA do to model rocketeers?

I suppose they can get LE to press some charge, but does the FAA have any jurisdiction/prosecutorial powers over model rocket hobbyists?

 

[vontresc]

It's not the FAA the model rocketeers are afraid of ti's the BATFE

 

[mikea]

What can the FAA do to model rocketeers?

I suppose they can get LE to press some charge, but does the FAA have any jurisdiction/prosecutorial powers over model rocket hobbyists?

Yeah. There are FARs with limitations that apply.

Not the same but Burt Rutan had to "work with" the FAA on meeting the requirements for private rocket flight the first time ever for SpaceShipOne. As we can guess, they had testing requirements that only a government with a military could meet.

 

[poadeleted20]

What can the FAA do to model rocketeers?

Civil penalties, which is another way of saying "cash fines."

 

[dmccormack]

Civil penalties, which is another way of saying "cash fines."

OK, but how often does that happen?

Imagine the headlines:

"BOY SCOUTS PAY HEFTY FINES FOR ROCKETRY"

TULLULAH, OH -- Scoutmaster Eric Haversack had no idea he'd be facing the wrath of the Federal Aviation Administration Bureau in Washington, DC.
"We'd been planning this for months. The boys made rockets from kits, working at home with Mom and Dad -- it was supposed to be a good family time..."
But the Good Times ended when the Federal agency and the County SWAT team arrived.
"I was really scared," said Second Class Scout Johnny Lunchpail. "I thought they were going to send us all to jail..."

And so on...

 

[poadeleted20]

OK, but how often does that happen?

Dunno, but it answers the question of how the FAA sanctions those with no certificate to lose. They only send folks to jail if the individual repeats the offense after the civil penalties have been maxed out without changing behavior, and that takes a real Federal judge, not just the ALJ's we're used to.

 

[tdager]

I don't think there's any legal precedent, regulation, or finding to support that position. While it might be nice, it's not a "responsibility." That term applies only to the requirement for the airport operator to post the NOTAM, and for the pilot to check for it.
I've no doubt you're correct, but your mother probably asked you at one point, "If Billy ran and jumped off a cliff, would you do the same?" The fact that many pilots are remiss in this area doesn't justify anyone else's failure to live up to their responsibilities.

Then the honest reality is that we ALL can get burned, period. Do you honestly check every NOTAM for every airport with 20nm of your 200nm route of flight? Even if you DID, unless you printed out the page, which could be pages long, how would you know in the air? How about one that starts AFTER you have lifted off?

Look I try hard to be proficient, professional, all-in-all a good "aviator" but there are times, like this, that I do feel the system IS set up for failure for the pilot.

 

[gprellwitz]

Look I try hard to be proficient, professional, all-in-all a good "aviator" but there are times, like this, that I do feel the system IS set up for failure for the pilot.

I go through life knowing that, if someone wanted to really be a stickler for the law/regulation, they could find at least one thing to charge me with every time I drove, flew, or did just about anything else. I read somewhere that the average driver violates a regulation something like once every 10 minutes*. Like you, I do my best to follow the rules and hope that I don't pi$$ someone off or screw up so badly that someone in authority decides to set their sights on me.



*(The numbers are off, but close enough for illustrative purposes)

 

[ScottM]

I used to fly Large Model Rockets (Far 101 >1500g weight and > 125g of propellant). From what I remember even though we filed a NOTAM with the local control tower (We flew at Bong Rec Area, so we usually talked to MKE, and ENW),

I have flown HPR out of Bong too!

Great fun!

I still have a few of the big guys in my garage. I did get my level 1 cert and would fly H and I engines. I have one rocket, 7.5" diameter and 3.5' tall. It required me to put 1lb of clay in the nose cone to get it aerodynamically stable! I flew that to a height of 4000' AGL on a large I engine.

 

[KennyFlys]

This morning I had an eight o'clock lesson with a student in her Skyhawk. After a trip to the next airport north at Huntsville with eight landings and returning to Conroe, I called at eight miles out. The "unicom" guy says the runway is closed by NOTAM.

At first, I didn't think it was what I thought I heard. We flew on south and over the airport. As we got a bit closer, a student from the idiot school on the field called to get their royal airport advisory. Of course, they are told the runway is closed and would have to divert. She then asked, "Where am I going to go?" I guess the CFI failed on teaching that diversion thing. The unicom guy tells her she can fly to Hooks but for some reason, she flies to Cleveland. At least the unicom guy will call the idiot school and advise them. Oddly, they don't have a unicom of their own where students can call direct. With that kind of volume of students, I would.

I continue on over the airport and look down. Sure 'nuff... a Malibu is just off the edge of the runway after landing on RWY 1. I later learned his nose gear collapsed with no warning. The airport was closed for 2 1/2 hours. My student and I diverted to Williams, just thirteen miles to the south. I bet you thought I was gonna say it's eight miles to the south.

The first time I get stranded with a woman at an airport and she's married. Drats!

At one point, I feared I had missed a NOTAM that the runway would be closed during the construction work going on for new lighting control. I'd hope they wouldn't close it during the day but I'll never bet on it. She had a meeting to go to so her husband drove down and got her. I stayed a while longer then got a call I could come home. She has a nice 1974 172M that's well cared for so I enjoyed my few tenths alone up there; right seat, no less. She wanted me to fly her to a friend's place who had a grass strip and was also headed for this meeting. I had no clue where exactly it's located and since she didn't have tanks topped off, I had no clue the exact amount left in them. I was certain of at least an hour's worth but that was meant for heading home, period. It turns out her meeting included three other pilots who sort of read her the riot act on not keeping the tanks full. That worked out well as I got to stay more the nice guy and simply say "Nope!"