Why we practice "realistic distractions"

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taters

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Taters
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/dayton-news/easter-trip-ends-in-tragedy-for-springboro-pilot-daughter-631568.html

Very sad bonanza crash, killed a father (college coach) and his daughter.

....... he reported a cargo door was open, FAA spokeswoman Elizabeth Cory said.
Witnesses say the Beechcraft Bonanza tried to turn back to the runway but banked too low,
touching the ground with its left wing. The plane cartwheeled and ................ .

Very good email I received from a Chief Pilot this A.M. to a student of mine who also it a flying college Coach...



It is accidents like these why the FAA added an item to the Practical Test Standards (PTS)

as an examiner we called them 'Distractions' -

if the cargo or cabin or whatever was the cause - do you think it effected the flight characteristics to the a/c ??

normally the only issue is the (1) the NOISE, (2) the surprise - "What the hell is wrong .....", (3) normally - realization of the problem, (4) embarrassment,

(5) hurry & land before anyone else realizes that - ME - the perfect pilot - screwed up!!!!!!

------------------------------------------------------------

steps 1 thru 4 are all part of being a human being - we make mistakes

being a Coach of human's - I'm sure you understand this all to well

step 5 is the killer !
-------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sure that if the pilot would have flown his normal pattern - this would have a story that you read about in a flying magazine 'A Lesson Learned .........'
but
because he got into hurry - he rushed his pattern ( most likely didn't climb to usual traffic pattern altitude) now he is flying at maybe 200 to 300 ft on downwind and starts doing his normal pwr chg, gear, flaps, etc

all the while the NOISE will not stop - OH CRAP - I'm too low add some power - starts the turn to final TOO LOW - catches a wingtip & cartwheels ...............

and we are sending emails & thinking that could be me

now refer back to the PTS and that's why the FAA put it in there

but

my question have you experienced a door open in your flying career ??

if not

we need to do it - so that you understand that the only difference is NOISE
&
the bruised human ego will heal
&
the lesson will be learned
 
On the red board, there was discussion about control problems if it was the rear opening door. ('Certification did not include testing that?')
 
On a couple of airplanes the cargo door opening is a real emergency, I believe.

Read a good article or blog recently about a CFI who put smoke in a coke bottle and let it out to get the student's attention - pretty neat trick.
 
TMetzinger said:
On a couple of airplanes the cargo door opening is a real emergency, I believe.

Read a good article or blog recently about a CFI who put smoke in a coke bottle and let it out to get the student's attention - pretty neat trick.
Click to expand...

I have heard of doors stalling elevators momentarily on some small twins
 
Father in law had the nose cargo door open on his Seneca. (they have a history of doing this... http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/1987/A87_22_24.pdf) He said it was quite a handful to handle. Of course, one of the engine covers had also come out of the cargo hold and wrapped around the stabilator. So he had to cope with a bit more than just the cargo door.

Also, in that same plane, I was riding right seat when the front passenger door opened. (The upper lock assembly was worn and did not latch correctly.. still not sure how that popped the lower latch too). Anyway, it was a total non-event, the plane flew fine.

As an aside... Since my father-in-law was flying, I tried to shut the door both in cruise flight, and as we slowed returning to the airport environment. I could not do it. I don't know if the prop wash causes a suction/vortex, or whatever, but I could not pull it shut. The door just pretty much sat open a few inches.



taters said:
http://www.daytondailynews.com/news...edy-for-springboro-pilot-daughter-631568.html

Very sad bonanza crash, killed a father (college coach) and his daughter.

....... he reported a cargo door was open, FAA spokeswoman Elizabeth Cory said.
Witnesses say the Beechcraft Bonanza tried to turn back to the runway but banked too low,
touching the ground with its left wing. The plane cartwheeled and ................ .

Very good email I received from a Chief Pilot this A.M. to a student of mine who also it a flying college Coach...



It is accidents like these why the FAA added an item to the Practical Test Standards (PTS)

as an examiner we called them 'Distractions' -

if the cargo or cabin or whatever was the cause - do you think it effected the flight characteristics to the a/c ??

normally the only issue is the (1) the NOISE, (2) the surprise - "What the hell is wrong .....", (3) normally - realization of the problem, (4) embarrassment,

(5) hurry & land before anyone else realizes that - ME - the perfect pilot - screwed up!!!!!!

------------------------------------------------------------

steps 1 thru 4 are all part of being a human being - we make mistakes

being a Coach of human's - I'm sure you understand this all to well

step 5 is the killer !
-------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sure that if the pilot would have flown his normal pattern - this would have a story that you read about in a flying magazine 'A Lesson Learned .........'
but
because he got into hurry - he rushed his pattern ( most likely didn't climb to usual traffic pattern altitude) now he is flying at maybe 200 to 300 ft on downwind and starts doing his normal pwr chg, gear, flaps, etc

all the while the NOISE will not stop - OH CRAP - I'm too low add some power - starts the turn to final TOO LOW - catches a wingtip & cartwheels ...............

and we are sending emails & thinking that could be me

now refer back to the PTS and that's why the FAA put it in there

but

my question have you experienced a door open in your flying career ??

if not

we need to do it - so that you understand that the only difference is NOISE
&
the bruised human ego will heal
&
the lesson will be learned
Click to expand...
 
I have had a right door come open, a left door come open, a left cargo door come open, a right window come open, a left window come open. Usually they come open on take-off, but may come open during cruise. Forget the noise. It won't kill you. Fly the airplane.

(It's an old airplane, sometimes the latches fail.)
 
I've had it happen a few times, and only once was I distracted.

Piper, my old dog, was in the backseat of a 182, and the door opened. He immediately started sniffing toward the door, so I reached back and grabbed his collar to hold him there. I could not close the door.

Because there was another pilot in the plane, it was a non-event. Had I been alone, I don't know what I would have done, but I'm sure it would not have ended well for Piper.
 
see pics
 

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Similar accident happened at Lake Hood last year. Engine hatch on a C170. Hard bank to return to the runway and a stall spin to the ground.
 
Ya know there really only needs to be one placard on any panel it should just simply say " FLY THE PLANE"

This is just so damn tragic.
 
I have had several open-door incidents - one in a Cherokee, one in an F33 (I did not close it properly), it popped on takeoff roll and I aborted (plenty of runway), closed, and went on; one in the club Debonair (right-seater, instructor, did not close properly, my fault for not re-confirming properly closed, but he redeemed himself by showing me he could close it in flight, slow-flight and a slip); and once in my Bonanza (still have never figured that one out, as CJane is excellent right-seater and knows how to work the door; I speculate it could have been bumped around and partially released the latch in flight, as it did not pop open until we were descending in the pre-landing vector-fest - no problem, just noisy and little chilly).

Plane flies just fine with the door open, just make sure you don’t have anything light and vital near the door!

As for the A36, it is certified for flight with rear doors removed, and I am supremely skeptical about rear doors opening causing a material handling problem; you cannot close the front-hinged front half unless the rear-hinged rear-half is closed and fully latched; the rear-half’s latch assembly physically precludes the front half from closing or latching; just can’t be done (typical excellent Beechcraft design - they thought it through pretty well).
 
Had the door pop slightly open in a Cherokee, Comanche, and 152. I just flew the plane.
 
Looks like it could affect the flying properties of the aircraft, said by someone with less than adequate expertise in things aeronautical.
 
When the doors pop open I generally take care of the immediate need, which is flying the airplane.

Once the immediate need of flying the airplane is addressed and that's all cool - I'll either just reach over and close it or I'll land and close it. It depends on the airplane, airport, etc, etc. It's no more difficult then looking down at an approach plate.
 
The doors on every aircraft within which I have flown opened from the rear, and would be held mostly shut by the slipstream. I've had doors and windows pop open in flight as well. While distracting, they did not affect the aerodynamic properties of the ship.

The door in that photograph opens from the front, and would be held open by the slipstream. It is also huge. I do wonder if the abnormal configuration could have been a contributing factor to the crash by altering the aerodynamic properties of the ship. Again, I am admittedly lacking in expertise.
 
i can imagine that if the rear hinged door popped open and didn't break off it could be pretty bad.
 
steingar said:
The doors on every aircraft within which I have flown opened from the rear, and would be held mostly shut by the slipstream. I've had doors and windows pop open in flight as well. While distracting, they did not affect the aerodynamic properties of the ship.

The door in that photograph opens from the front, and would be held open by the slipstream. It is also huge. I do wonder if the abnormal configuration could have been a contributing factor to the crash by altering the aerodynamic properties of the ship. Again, I am admittedly lacking in expertise.
Click to expand...

As someone already posted, it should be nearly impossible to take off with the rear door of an A36 unlatched. Unlike the forward cabin door which has often "popped" open at rotation after appearing to be properly latched (at least at first glance), the only way the aft door could open would be if neither half of the rear door was even slightly closed. AFaIK, as long as the forward half is on top of the rear half (the normal situation) it would prevent the rear half from opening in the slipstream. That said, if you did manage to take off with the rear half door hanging outside the front half I'm pretty sure the plane would make an immediate turn to the right along with a pitch down. If that happened close to the ground, chances are there wouldn't be time to react before touching a wingtip.
 
If you shut the door "backwards" ie.. the front door followed by the back door on the A-36...you can get them to convincingly shut...I have had pax get to the (pictured)plane before me and do that very thing twice...what a PITA to get that undone....just a thought but that is the only way I can imagine the thing coming open as discussed above.
 
I recently experienced the "open door" when departing KMQI Dare County. Mary and I were heading to visit family maybe an hour west. We launched and Mary asked if the heat was on, I was just coming up to pattern altitude at the time. I said yep, it's on but it does feel a bit out of the ordinary in here. I checked her door and mine only to see a gap in mine. Hey, my doors open....first thought...FLY The Plane. I stopped my climb leveled off gave the door a try then made the call that I was returning to MQI. With a slight turn I was base to final for runway 5 over the water for a nice crosswind landing.

I taxied clear, shut the door, and headed out once again. The second go had dogs run out on the runway just as I was ready to rotate......they turned back I climbed out.

FLY THE PLANE.

My CFI made me fly the 172 with doors open. He also held the yoke in place and made me turn using my door. He always threw strange what if's at me to keep me thinking.
 
Two door open incidents myself. Not to big of a deal in an Arrow or a Cardinal - I keep thinking that the Bonanza should've flown OK even if there was a slipstream issue. I've seen them fly without doors doing photography.
If anything, I'd be more inclined to take it up higher, practice slow-flight with some altitude, then try to come back down and land it.

Ryan
 
tonycondon said:
i can imagine that if the rear hinged door popped open and didn't break off it could be pretty bad.
Click to expand...
Not as bad as trying a 180, low to the ground, with the damn door making everything more difficult!

It's crazy that so many experienced pilots forget this. :skeptical:
 
Way to jinx a guy here! Had a door open on the Dakota on Thursday. Ok, just the top latch that "someone" forgot to check. A non-event - a little wind noise, wait until top of climb, set the autopilot, pull the top handle and latch it up.
 
I've had the door come unlatched in the Arrow once. More noise and wind in the cabin, but the plane flew fine. I went back, landed, relatched the door and took off. Total non-event.

I've also had a door open in a 182. On purpose. To push a pipe out into the slipstream to spread ashes. Again, more noise and wind in the cabin, but the plane flew just fine. Open windows in C-172s don't have much effect, either, other than to get the glass out of the way for picture taking.

Fly the plane.
 
Flying back from Gaston's one year IFR out of Mountain Home, I looked over at Leslie and realized her door was slightly ajar. No big deal, I'll just slow down a bit and have her close it. About then, of course, ATC comes on and says they see us entering an area of severe precipitation and asking how the ride it. Well, we had been trying to get the door closed before we got to the clouds (which we hadn't thought to be severe), but hearing that we just said "to heck with the door, worst that will happen is some water in the cabin." Kept the speed down and dealt with the door on the other side. Just to repeat a theme here, FLY THE PLANE! :) (We didn't even get water in the cockpit, though it was a little turbulent going through there.)
 
nyoung said:
As an aside... Since my father-in-law was flying, I tried to shut the door both in cruise flight, and as we slowed returning to the airport environment. I could not do it. I don't know if the prop wash causes a suction/vortex, or whatever, but I could not pull it shut. The door just pretty much sat open a few inches.
Click to expand...

Didja open the pilot-side vent window? That's the trick.
 
I've taken off and realized that I forgot to latch the canopy on a DA40. It didn't "Open" but it was stuck open about an inch. Pulling it down only allowed it to latch on one side, so we had to land. It's OK to fly with it unlatched in an emergency, but in an unusual attitude, it could flap and break your neck (if you're tall).

At the same place, sometime in 2008, a different pilot (don't know him) was XC, packing to fly back, and failed to latch the nose luggage door on a DA42. During rotate, the door popped open. The door is composite and tore off of the hinges, straight into the prop. Gearbox, prop, wing, hstab all damaged. Repair bill was somewhere between $40k and $50k plus being OTS for a few months. (This plane had the Thielert engines. The gearbox is a magic assembly, and the pixie dust is hard to come by.)
 
xaminmo said:
I've taken off and realized that I forgot to latch the canopy on a DA40. It didn't "Open" but it was stuck open about an inch. Pulling it down only allowed it to latch on one side, so we had to land. It's OK to fly with it unlatched in an emergency, but in an unusual attitude, it could flap and break your neck (if you're tall).

At the same place, sometime in 2008, a different pilot (don't know him) was XC, packing to fly back, and failed to latch the nose luggage door on a DA42. During rotate, the door popped open. The door is composite and tore off of the hinges, straight into the prop. Gearbox, prop, wing, hstab all damaged. Repair bill was somewhere between $40k and $50k plus being OTS for a few months. (This plane had the Thielert engines. The gearbox is a magic assembly, and the pixie dust is hard to come by.)
Click to expand...
Does the DA-40 have the warning lights like the DA-20 did? A canopy opening at the wrong moment during the takeoff in a DA-20 I imagine could very likely be fatal.
 
If I remember correctly, it dings a couple of times for DOOR or LATCH and then just stays annunciated red, but it's not big.

Actually, this happened to me twice. Once at Denton, and we waited for multiple landing traffic. Once cleared for takeoff, we didn't have a reminder to co back and re-latch. I got part way into the roll and I closed throttle, braked enough to latch closed, and then we continued.

The other was out at Tyler and we were not following sterile cockpit during taxi/runup/takeoff.
 
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