Why? The high cost of flying..

Richman67 said:
What you have is a nasty confluence of events that conspire against what we all would think is "reasonable". Some of you aren't going to like the answers.

Costs:
Let's go ahead and beat the liability thing to death up front, and all the nasty stuff that goes with it. But let's not just blame the end manufacturer. Every item that goes into the end product, in this case the airplane, has a "liability tax" attached to it if it's stamped "aviation". So those nuts and bolts that go into that magneto all have a %30-40 tax on them. That completed magneto has a %30-40 tax over and above for the completed unit. That Lycoming, which as two magnetos, has a %30-40 tax on it. And finally, that airframe, which has the engine, which has the mags, which has the nuts and bolts, has a final %30-%40 tax on it.

It isn't additive. It's compounding at each stage of the assembly, and there's thousands of parts. By the time you get to the end of the supply chain, this cost has eaten up practically all of any potential income stream.

Folks tell me after 9/11, business paranoia went into orbit, and insurance rates with them. EVERYONE is risk adverse these days, and the prices reflect that.

Next, let's look at your common leaseback: Back in they day, the FBO was "full service". They did MX, fuel, rentals, instruction, sold parts, sold planes and heck, probably did field overhauls right there. Joe Bag-o-Donuts bought a 172 to lease back. Since the FBO was a dealer, the buyer probably got a bit of a break. Owner then put the 172 on the rental line. The FBO, working with the owner, probably supplied fuel and MX at slightly over wholesale rates, and maybe even carried the plane on their policy. The owner probably got a nice tax break. The school had a steady stream of students plus some more from the GI Bill.

These days, the FBO business is VERY narrow. Anything with risk in it is outsourced. Maintenance are all contractors. Rental and flight school, if there is one, also done by third parties. That means that leaseback has gone from a loss leader to sell airplanes, to a profit center. That means that owner is now getting nicked FULL retail prices (and those prices are high) for each step. The operator (in this case a rental outfit/school) is taking their cut, and the FBO is also taking their share to the tune of margins.

Airports: Take a look at Paul Freeman's site. Look around every major metro area. See how many "3rd and 4th tier" airports have disappeared (my own scale: 1st tier = large airline/corporate fields, 2nd tier = smaller metro/corporate / GA fields with a tower, 3rd tier = busier uncontrolled fields that are smaller corporate/GA and 4th tier = small GA fields). Around every metro area, there were often a dozen or so small fields where someone could park their airplane for pennies. Local MX was inexpensive, and so was the fuel. That's important, but also important was the field was probably a short drive, encouraging people to go, hang out, fly.

With the inexorable growth of the population, those fields, even larger going concerns ones like Zahn's in NYC (look it up), were swallowed and closed. That forced those that could to more expensive locals, which got more even more expensive because of the demand. Plenty of others dropped out because of the higher expense and/or the new hassle of driving to a field that's further away.

Some costs have come down. Look at some old issues of Flying from the 50s and 60s (available on Google Books). Plug those numbers into the ole CPI calculator, and you'd be surprised what that KX170 costs in 2019 dollars.

Resources:
People honestly have fewer resources these days, the primary one of which is time. Wages have been stagnant for close to two decades now, and costs that were once borne by the employer are now on the worker, namely retirement and insurance. People are FORCED to participate in the lottery that is the stock market because interest rates have been near zero for close to 10 years now (unprecedented in history by the way...that low mortgage comes with a nasty price). Companies have managed to manipulate people into thinking $19k a year in a 401k will come anywhere near funding a retirement. People now pay outrageous amounts for insurance and college for their kids, which used to be quite affordable on the local level (easy money for student loans is the culprit there, but that's a story for another time). To be fair, some of the spending these days is highly discretionary...the expense for cable TV, cell phones, "travel sports" and other toys would have been unthinkable in the 60s and 70s, but people these days are practically shammed into doing it at every step ("what? You don't have little Jimmie in that travel soccer club? You're a bad parent! It's only $4000 a year!").

So, now it comes down to time. Your everyday average John and Jane have zero time. Ridiculous pushes for "productivity" means most people are "on" all the time from their employer. Email and cell phones mean they're expected to be available, and if not, they get dinged by some automaton HR person on their performance review. Any time they DO have is precious, and will be spent with their family, and not driving an hour and a half to spend half a day with an airplane, which isn't that family friendly. People are working like fiends, constantly worrying about retirement, insurance and putting their kids through college. Even if there were aircraft available at a CPI indexed cost from 1960, there'd still be light demand because no one has time to be futzing at the airport these days. There are far more family friendly activities that cost far less.

Society changed around the aviator. Much of for the worse, and is reflective of society today. High cost, risk adverse, soak the little guy for as much as possible. Grab yours while you can, because someone will do the same to you.
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Thanks for that addition to the discussion...
Lots of info there to think on.
 
jspilot said:
Really love your “resource” section here! It’s spot on to what I view as a real sin of this current economic situation. The insanely cheap money has artificially propped up people’s financial situation for so long now that we have an entire generation that have borrowed to get to where they are and who could blame them— money was free the stock market always goes up, people have jobs— why not borrow. It’s almost a lost belief to “live within ones means”. Many live with the mindset “There is no badge of honor for being able to afford things without borrowing money.” My conclusion, we have an entire generation who are living “artificially wealthy” meaning they don’t own much— they owe money for almost everything.

As can be witnessed by the now 0% interest rates and actually some negative interest rates around the world, we are living during a time that can’t be replicated by any economic principles from prior generations. We can’t even realistically define individual wealth...the Fed can’t figure out how to determine inflation...economists can’t explain stagnant wage growth.... people seem confused by why so many Americans are in debt.... It’s down right scary when you take away all the ways for the academics and the like because the tools that used to be used no longer even work as a means for making policy or understanding what is going on at the individual level.

Connecting it to aviation— we would think most people would be inclined to say “well sure let’s tske out huge loans and go get that personal plane— why not( I actually saw an ad on trade a plane for a 172 with a fixed rate loan of 3.99%). So why are people not doing that? My hunch is the average person has been mislead to believe that flying in small planes is dangerous. We wrap kids in bubble wrap from the second they are born now and have for an entire generation so that kid in his mid 20’s now is already averse to “danger.” Plus, to fly you need to have self confidence and self reliability. I don’t see those traits in high supply these days; how could people have them since when they strip their economic lives down, they don’t have a lot to be proud of.
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I agree with most of this...
Amazing debt load on people today (for unnecessary stuff).

Others have said there ARE engaged, responsible folks out there under 30 years old... There are... But they are rare.
 
Some good discussion here and I agree with much of it.

As we all struggle with making the available time and available money curves cross, I'm amused the some folks here who say "they should require X hours of Y time before they give anyone a private license.

While there is no doubt that X=5-10 hours of Y=tailwheel/glider/whatever would make better pilots of us all, the reality is that additional time and cost could also be a player in someone getting their ticket or not.

As I got back into GA a couple years ago and finally finished my private and then instrument tickets I am amazed at how much longer it takes people to get their license today than it did in the 80's. I'm sure the FAA tracks those figures and it directly relates to cost/time which for a lot of people results in incomplete training. At the PPL level it's just not that much different than it was. Is it risk adverse schools/instructors/insurance companies?

I'm looking forward to getting my tailwheel endorsement. Now, when will I find time to do that between keeping current in the 172/182/Archer and instruments?
 
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Pugs said:
Some good discussion here and I agree with much of it.

As we all struggle with making the available time and available money curves cross, I'm amused the some folks here who say "they should require X hours of Y time before they give anyone a private license.

While there is no doubt that X=5-10 hours of Y=tailwheel/glider/whatever would make better pilots of us all, the reality is that additional time and cost could also be a player in someone getting their ticket or not.

As I got back into GA a couple years ago and finally finished my private and then instrument tickets I am amazed at how much longer it takes people to get their license today than it did in the 80's. I'm sure the FAA tracks those figures and it directly relates to cost/tie which for a lot of people results in incomplete training. At the PPL level it's just not that much different than it was. Is it risk adverse schools/instructors/insurance companies?

I'm looking forward to getting my tailwheel endorsement. Now, when will I find time to do that between keeping current in the 172/182/Archer and instruments?
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I've been flying nearly thirty years now, and I'm sure my view of the world has become jaded, but, I think a lot of the reason behind the massive increase in the number of hours it takes for someone to get their license is that back in the day, we were a little more interested in producing new pilots, and a bit less interested in making money off the new pilots.

It took me fifty something hours to complete my training, and because of money issues, I drug it out. Today, a hangar neighbor student pilot friend of mine has over 100 hours, and next week he finally expects to take his check ride. I've flown with him a couple times, and he's no different than any of us, except that he's had his eyes poked out a little more by the greedy time builder baby cfi's.
 
I certainly don't see any evidence around here that it's taking any more time to get your license than any other time. Most people I know got it within 0-10 hours of the 40 hour minimum. The ones that took longer were due to starting and stopping. In fact, most flight schools incentivise their instructors to get students passed on the first time and in the minimal time.

I've never met anyone that felt they could have received their ticket sooner had the instructor signed them off for the test earlier. Most feel they aren't ready when they do get signed off to take the checkride.
 
I also don't get how legacy designs like the 172 / 182 etc., are costing upwards of $400K new... that absurd, well over the typical median income level, and beyond what most homes in this country cost.. for a plane that has had zero meaningful improvements in 50+ years, with all tooling / RD costs, etc., paid off. It's bananas!

At the same time... if you're selling 7 planes a year (looking at you Mooney) then there is no possible way to stay in business (and it shows, they're out of business.. again), it costs money to employ people, give them benefits, have the resources to build these things, etc.

And since we were comparing planes to SUVs.. you also have to factor in that Ford builds 370 cars *every hour* .. while Cirrus (the highest number selling single engine piston GA) builds that many (currently) IN A YEAR! If you were to look the cost of a car that only sells 7 per year (looking at you again Mooney) then you're looking at cars like the Bugatti Veyron.. which go for $1.5M and up

So.. the cost of planes *can be reasonable* if you look at it through the lens of cars but adjust it for tiny production numbers.
 
EdFred said:
That's 100% on them. No one forced them to go to college. There are a crap ton of jobs that pay REALLY well. Ones that don't need a degree in Feminism In the Animal Kingdom and How can We Blame it on White Men. But they got some worthless (easy classes) degree to overpay for from a university with "name" that means absolutely diddly, and expect the world to reward them just because they have this degree. Because since pre-school they got their participation trophy and ribbon for 17th place, and so no matter what they did they were always rewarded even when they didn't do **** to get an award.

Maybe problem isn't solely on them, it's their parents, who coddled the crap out of them, and now they are stuck with decisions they made - although having never faced repercussions of bad decisions growing up, they didn't know what they were getting into. But as an adult, they still made the decision to take out loads of debt.
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I agree with most of this- it is not anyone's responsibility to go to college and the vast majority of college graduates are just as useless as they were the day they graduated High School but.... the education system in America promotes the idea of college as a pathway to prosperity. Inherit in that argument is the belief that college will lead to higher paying jobs but the conundrum here is in order to get those higher paying jobs one must go into debt. Sure some careers are well paid that don't require a degree but those are the exception not the rule and virtually every study ever done by economists directly links level of education to potential income during one's lifetime.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
Yes, but the airplane FLIES THROUGH THE AIR!! The motorcycle can fly through the air...once. :D
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Unless you're this guy ;)
images


and sometimes even then...
 
jspilot said:
I agree with most of this- it is not anyone's responsibility to go to college and the vast majority of college graduates are just as useless as they were the day they graduated High School but.... the education system in America promotes the idea of college as a pathway to prosperity. Inherit in that argument is the belief that college will lead to higher paying jobs but the conundrum here is in order to get those higher paying jobs one must go into debt. Sure some careers are well paid that don't require a degree but those are the exception not the rule and virtually every study ever done by economists directly links level of education to potential income during one's lifetime.
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But aren't a lot of economists employed by universities? That's like asking a used car salesman if you should buy a used car today? Of course you should! The additional problem with that is that these economists have convinced employers that they need people with degrees. Sounds like job security reinforcement by the economists.
 
EdFred said:
But aren't a lot of economists employed by universities? That's like asking a used car salesman if you should buy a used car today? Of course you should! The additional problem with that is that these economists have convinced employers that they need people with degrees. Sounds like job security reinforcement by the economists.
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I'm struggling to stay with you on this- economists study facts and figures and make conclusions largely based on those. Sure they have a level of interpretation but they can't sway statistics by a large enough margin to change fact based conclusions.

Here's something from the Bureau of Labor and Statistics.

https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2018/data-on-display/education-pays.htm

and here's a pop culture level website saying the same thing--
https://www.thebalancecareers.com/how-much-is-a-college-degree-worth-2059798

I don't see any spin here. @EdFred- you often take contrarian points here, I respect that-- but on this one you really are stretching here. Sure people don't have to go to college but to somehow say the facts and figures don't support a conclusion that going to college leads to higher income potential during ones life is beyond a stretch.
 
Of course, in a market defined by a tight supply of "desirable" jobs, employers are going to use any and all forms of discriminators as barriers to entry. College degrees just happen to be one of them. Everybody knows it's superfluous, that's beside the point.

Look at airline pilots. Hell even military pilots (enlisted griping about no warrants/enlisted flyers in the AF in this case). The same tired discussion about "why do we need a 4 year degree to fly for Delta/USAF?...". And the answer remains the same: Because life ain't fair and there's too many six-figure income chasing m---f--rs around compared to the six figure jobs everyone wants. As such, there's enough people qualified to work for a regional that doesn't require a 4 year degree, which is why it pays the garbage it pays (amortized over 40 years), has the work rules it has, and the turnover it does. If you want Delta/commissioned pilot pay, the line is longer than the the available jobs. Shocker. If they want you to walk around with clown shoes (they do, except it's a hat and horse blanket jacket :D ) and have a superfluous degree guess what, there's enough people who will line up and do it. In comes college degrees et al.

That's why I harp against the trope of the pilot shortage. This Country may have a specific deficit of certain skillsets at any one time, because the goats can't humanly shift to the next pasture as quickly as the stockholder overlords demand. But by and large, we suffer from great labor surplus across the board for the incomes we actually desire as a collective. Oh and before it's brought up: Expat jobs in China and $1.20 gets me a cup of coffee. If that's the end game, then we've jumped the shark and got bigger problems than college degree bloat.

Again, I'm not against the trades. But perennial seasonal, physically damaging, or benefit-absent 1099 work is not a desirable long term prospect most people who view themselves as not beholden to institutional poverty want to waste their years on. Roughnecks make more than me on any given month. And I continue to quietly pass by while uttering in my mind that the game is indeed Chess and not Checkers. Look, change the labor constructs/assurances of the "gig economy" and perhaps you can effect change on that front. Otherwise, keep tilting at the windmills Quijote, on the "college degree isn't needed" front. Take it up with the public that continues to speak with their feet, even if at its own socioeconomic detriment.

Mike Rowe has made the same blue-collar shtick plight ad nauseam on social media. The market continues to tell him to shove it.
 
jspilot said:
I'm struggling to stay with you on this- economists study facts and figures and make conclusions largely based on those. Sure they have a level of interpretation but they can't sway statistics by a large enough margin to change fact based conclusions.

Here's something from the Bureau of Labor and Statistics.

https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2018/data-on-display/education-pays.htm

and here's a pop culture level website saying the same thing--
https://www.thebalancecareers.com/how-much-is-a-college-degree-worth-2059798

I don't see any spin here. @EdFred- you often take contrarian points here, I respect that-- but on this one you really are stretching here. Sure people don't have to go to college but to somehow say the facts and figures don't support a conclusion that going to college leads to higher income potential during ones life is beyond a stretch.
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I'm saying that for the vast vast majority of jobs they really don't require a Bachelor's or higher. Some do, "real" doctors, etc. which then pay well, and skew the numbers of what people with degrees make. Yeah, i expect a doctor to make more than a draftsman - a job that can be had without a degree - and can pay really well.

It's like a snake eating it's own tail. Universities convince the employers that they need people with degrees (when they don't). Other employers see that and think, well we need to make that a requirement as well. It trickles down. Now there's an artificial "need" for degrees because the U's convinced employers it was required. Now everyone thinks they need a degree, and they price of education goes through the roof. Universities keep the supply of students and income going because they pulled a sales job on employers. Economists happen to work for universities. Used car salesmen.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Of course, in a market defined by a tight supply of "desirable" jobs, employers are going to use any and all forms of discriminators as barriers to entry. College degrees just happen to be one of them. Everybody knows it's superfluous, that's beside the point.

Look at airline pilots. Hell even military pilots (enlisted griping about no warrants/enlisted flyers in the AF in this case). The same tired discussion about "why do we need a 4 year degree to fly for Delta/USAF?...". And the answer remains the same: Because life ain't fair and there's too many six-figure income chasing m---f--rs around compared to the six figure jobs everyone wants. As such, there's enough people qualified to work for a regional that doesn't require a 4 year degree, which is why it pays the garbage it pays (amortized over 40 years), has the work rules it has, and the turnover it does. If you want Delta/commissioned pilot pay, the line is longer than the the available jobs. Shocker. If they want you to walk around with clown shoes (they do, except it's a hat and horse blanket jacket :D ) and have a superfluous degree guess what, there's enough people who will line up and do it. In comes college degrees et al.

That's why I harp against the trope of the pilot shortage. This Country may have a specific deficit of certain skillsets at any one time, because the goats can't humanly shift to the next pasture as quickly as the stockholder overlords demand. But by and large, we suffer from great labor surplus across the board for the incomes we actually desire as a collective. Oh and before it's brought up: Expat jobs in China and $1.20 gets me a cup of coffee. If that's the end game, then we've jumped the shark and got bigger problems than college degree bloat.

Again, I'm not against the trades. But perennial seasonal, physically damaging, or benefit-absent 1099 work is not a desirable long term prospect most people who view themselves as not beholden to institutional poverty want to waste their years on. Roughnecks make more than me on any given month. And I continue to quietly pass by while uttering in my mind that the game is indeed Chess and not Checkers. Look, change the labor constructs/assurances of the "gig economy" and perhaps you can effect change on that front. Otherwise, keep tilting at the windmills Quijote, on the "college degree isn't needed" front. Take it up with the public that continues to speak with their feet, even if at its own socioeconomic detriment.

Mike Rowe has made the same blue-collar shtick plight ad nauseam on social media. The market continues to tell him to shove it.
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You can make six figures by year 3 or 4 at a (some) regional(s) with no degree.
 
EdFred said:
That's 100% on them. No one forced them to go to college. There are a crap ton of jobs that pay REALLY well. Ones that don't need a degree in Feminism In the Animal Kingdom and How can We Blame it on White Men. But they got some worthless (easy classes) degree to overpay for from a university with "name" that means absolutely diddly, and expect the world to reward them just because they have this degree. Because since pre-school they got their participation trophy and ribbon for 17th place, and so no matter what they did they were always rewarded even when they didn't do **** to get an award.

Maybe problem isn't solely on them, it's their parents, who coddled the crap out of them, and now they are stuck with decisions they made - although having never faced repercussions of bad decisions growing up, they didn't know what they were getting into. But as an adult, they still made the decision to take out loads of debt.
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Thanks for telling it how it really is.
I'm all for University when someone is serious about their studies and getting into a real career. But far too many people just avoid getting a job, or starting on the path to a real career, by justifying their slacking off with the excuse, they are still in school. Basket weaving, women's studies, how to be overly PC, am I really a boy or a girl, and should I cry more and yell discrimination louder to get my own selfish way, are not legitimate courses in my opinion. Go pull wire for an electrician and learn that trade, or how to run a loader in a gravel pit, become a truck driver, a chef, lawn maintenance, anything that is a real job, but stop being a slacker and just partying on student loans. If my 19 year old daughter pulled that crap, I would tell her to knock it off.
 
Art Rose said:
I've been flying nearly thirty years now, and I'm sure my view of the world has become jaded, but, I think a lot of the reason behind the massive increase in the number of hours it takes for someone to get their license is that back in the day, we were a little more interested in producing new pilots, and a bit less interested in making money off the new pilots.

It took me fifty something hours to complete my training, and because of money issues, I drug it out. Today, a hangar neighbor student pilot friend of mine has over 100 hours, and next week he finally expects to take his check ride. I've flown with him a couple times, and he's no different than any of us, except that he's had his eyes poked out a little more by the greedy time builder baby cfi's.
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Milking the student is pretty common now, but that's a reflection of society's decaying morals. A student usually doesn't live within 20 minutes of the airport anymore, as so many smaller fields have closed and are covered with malls and houses now. So some young folks never get close enough to an airplane to get interested.

The bubble-wrap generation is risk-averse, as someone else pointed out, and the habit of the media to breathlessy report any little airplane accident while ignoring the mulitudes dying on the roads only feeds the perception that flying is a death wish.

And our airplanes are old technology, still. Hot starts on an injected engine and all. Young folks these days never had to drive a car with a choke or a carburetor or without ABS to warn them to slow down. Some have never driven a manual transmission. They lack the feel for the human/machine interaction and don't understand half of what's being talked about in ground school. No frame of reference. In my Aircraft Systems class I would introduce electrical theory using the garden hose as an example. Pressure is voltage (it drives the water); gallons per minute is amperage; and the sprinkler is the load (it presents resistance). Wattage is how much water gets thrown how far. A fire hose has lots of wattage. Your sister kinking the hose so you can't spray her is a whole bunch of resistance, like a corroded connection. And, still, I got some blank looks from a few students. They'd never fooled with a garden hose. Grew up in an apartment or something. How does one help those people get a handle on theory?
 
EdFred said:
I'm saying that for the vast vast majority of jobs they really don't require a Bachelor's or higher. Some do, "real" doctors, etc. which then pay well, and skew the numbers of what people with degrees make. Yeah, i expect a doctor to make more than a draftsman - a job that can be had without a degree - and can pay really well.

It's like a snake eating it's own tail. Universities convince the employers that they need people with degrees (when they don't). Other employers see that and think, well we need to make that a requirement as well. It trickles down. Now there's an artificial "need" for degrees because the U's convinced employers it was required. Now everyone thinks they need a degree, and they price of education goes through the roof. Universities keep the supply of students and income going because they pulled a sales job on employers. Economists happen to work for universities. Used car salesmen.
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I’m trying to follow this- are you saying that the jobs that claim to need degrees from colleges actually don’t? If so, I’m not totally sure I agree with that. You can’t just have laymen being teachers, lawyers, business managers, engineers, nurses and those types of white collar jobs that most universities in this nation supply a steady stream of. The quality of inovation is the strength of the American economy and, even with the pollution of moral values and the spewing of “alternate history” universities are still places where many of us learned how to think for ourselves and faced real world obstacles and challenges. I appreciate you over estimating how prepared for life a High School Senior is( I’m a school teacher by trade) but I can’t even imagine an 18 year old being thrust into the white collar jobs of today.

We can disagree about the choice to go to college and how much these colleges are charging but the idea that higher education is not needed is difficult for me to accept. I love apprenticeship ideas but those work best for trades— it’s not really possible to just teach someone how to problem solve or think creatively without having baseline knowledge in the chosen area of expertise and in order to keep the American economy competitive, we need people who can create and innovate.
 
I am saying there are a lot of jobs (decent paying) that dont need degrees to do. The ones you listed - not including biz mgr that can be attained through experience - do require them. But there are many that dont and can be had through experience. But somehow the employers have been convinced those jobs need degrees. And I dont know how many times I've had to give "classes" to people with degrees that obviously didnt learn their major in college.
 
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jspilot said:
it’s not really possible to just teach someone how to problem solve or think creatively without having baseline knowledge in the chosen area of expertise and in order to keep the American economy competitive, we need people who can create and innovate.
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Steve Jobs and Bill Gates are college drop outs. So is Mark Zuckerberg, Howard Hughes,Ted Turner, Michael Dell. Sir Richard Branson is a high school drop out, so is Quentin Tarantino.

I think they did OK.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Steve Jobs and Bill Gates are college drop outs. So is Mark Zuckerberg, Howard Hughes,Ted Turner, Michael Dell. Sir Richard Branson is a high school drop out, so is Quentin Tarantino.

I think they did OK.
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I knew someone was going to point this out. These are the exceptions not the rule. If we focus on exceptions to guide policy and “what should happen” we are focusing on statistical outliers and, as I learned in college, are basing a conclusion on a flawed premise and thus bound to be burdened by an unprovable thesis.

I think most people have an issue with the premise of college these days because they don’t like what is being taught at that level. I totally agree with that but I’m flabbergasted at the notion that people actually believe the solution to making college more affordable is to claim college is not needed. That’s a pretty far leap for me to make and seems like a really flawed premise.
 
jspilot said:
I knew someone was going to point this out. These are the exceptions not the rule. If we focus on exceptions to guide policy and “what should happen” we are focusing on statistical outliers and, as I learned in college, are basing a conclusion on a flawed premise and thus bound to be burdened by an unprovable thesis.

I think most people have an issue with the premise of college these days because they don’t like what is being taught at that level. I totally agree with that but I’m flabbergasted at the notion that people actually believe the solution to making college more affordable is to claim college is not needed. That’s a pretty far leap for me to make and seems like a really flawed premise.
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Lots of college graduates working at Starbucks. The girl that cuts my hair has a degree from a prestigious university.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Lots of college graduates working at Starbucks. The girl that cuts my hair has a degree from a prestigious university.
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Right- I get it. Also lots more college graduates earning 6 figure salaries who will do that for many years to come. Did you happen to read any of the articles I linked in a previous post. The proof is fairly unequivocal unless you’d like to somehow discredit the Bureau of Labor and Statistics with ever possible means of data collection at their disposal.
 
EdFred said:
I am saying there are a lot of jobs (decent paying) that dont need degrees to do. The ones you listed - not including biz mgr that can be attained through experience - do require them. But there are many that dont and can be had through experience. But somehow the employers have been convinced those jobs need degrees. And I dont know how many times I've had to give "classes" to people with degrees that obviously didnt learn their major in college.
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I’m now even more confused— so your premise is jobs that can be learned through apprenticeships don’t need degrees but those that actually require an ability to problem solve/ critically think and evaluate issues from an educated platform do require a degree? I believe that is the actual premise of higher education and why college exists in the first place. To become a teacher I learned theory, pedagogy, best practices, current practices and then developed my own practice from that. Essentially that is an apprenticeship but one suited for an intellectual career and not a hands on one. If you major in “(you name a group here) studies” and then become a salesperson because you wasted your money, then I totally agree with you.

If you mean that people who go to college are not any smarter than those who don’t I COMPLETLEY agree with you! I’m unlike most of the teachers at my high school. I actively encourage my students to consider the choice they are making to enter college and really stack up the risks against the benefits. It’s really a much more important decision than most 18 year olds are cut out for!

And yes, worthless degrees like the ones some graduate with are huge mistakes. That’s totally on the person choosing to go!
 
My daughter wants to become an electrician, they make exceptionally good money, work is plentiful, and she enjoys it. Right now her title is wire puller, its not an official title, but basically she does the hard work, and its the stepping stone to becoming an electrician in the future. She drills a lot of holes basically, pulls wire off of spools all over a house or commercial building, from the panel to whatever needs to be supplied electricity, she installs lights, fans, outlets, switches, heaters, etc. Then she connects the panel and pushes in the breakers, hooks up the ground, even if that means all 104 lbs of her swinging a sledge hammer to drive a steel pipe deep into the earth, to hook the ground wire to. Her boss checks over her work of course because she has only been working for him 6 months, but he is extremely impressed with her work! She only makes $24 / hour right now, but once certified its nothing to pull in $90 plus per hour.
 
Same goes for welders and fabricators. A friend of my brother is killing it. But it's not a job conducive to bragging on facebook, Instagram, etc...so those jobs are ewww.
 
Wow... Has this gone off the rails.

That's okay, I expect it. Heck, I foment it myself. Bigger picture and all...

My folks wanted me to go to college. I didn't.

I haven't actually pushed a pencil on it, but would venture a guess that someone leaving highschool and going into a blue collar job (especially the trades) might actually come out ahead (with no student debt to be burdened with) at 65 over a vast majority of the college graduates today.

There are, no doubt, some college grads that will become 1%rs as well. But not the majority of them.

There is an entrepreneurial percentage of non college educated that will also achieve that level of success.

There are many extremely successful businessmen that are illiterate. Older folks, mostly, but they're out there...

Tying this all to flying, the helmeted, knee padded, generation is, as has been mentioned, risk averse.

Sure, there are some, that take up sailing, or sculling, or white water rafting. But they're a smaller minority than the obese ones that live in their parent's basement, or their old bedroom.

They'd just as soon fly sims or perhaps drones, as do the real thing...

A few kids might show up for young eagles. Maybe they'll be inspired. I hope so.

Flying is one of the sweetest freedoms there is.

But, I'm romanticizing it.
 
CharlieD3 said:
Wow... Has this gone off the rails.

That's okay, I expect it. Heck, I foment it myself. Bigger picture and all...

My folks wanted me to go to college. I didn't.

I haven't actually pushed a pencil on it, but would venture a guess that someone leaving highschool and going into a blue collar job (especially the trades) might actually come out ahead (with no student debt to be burdened with) at 65 over a vast majority of the college graduates today.

There are, no doubt, some college grads that will become 1%rs as well. But not the majority of them.

There is an entrepreneurial percentage of non college educated that will also achieve that level of success.

There are many extremely successful businessmen that are illiterate. Older folks, mostly, but they're out there...

Tying this all to flying, the helmeted, knee padded, generation is, as has been mentioned, risk averse.

Sure, there are some, that take up sailing, or sculling, or white water rafting. But they're a smaller minority than the obese ones that live in their parent's basement, or their old bedroom.

They'd just as soon fly sims or perhaps drones, as do the real thing...

A few kids might show up for young eagles. Maybe they'll be inspired. I hope so.

Flying is one of the sweetest freedoms there is.

But, I'm romanticizing it.
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Apologies for the thread drift.
 
Shuswap BC said:
My daughter wants to become an electrician, they make exceptionally good money, work is plentiful, and she enjoys it. Right now her title is wire puller, its not an official title, but basically she does the hard work, and its the stepping stone to becoming an electrician in the future. She drills a lot of holes basically, pulls wire off of spools all over a house or commercial building, from the panel to whatever needs to be supplied electricity, she installs lights, fans, outlets, switches, heaters, etc. Then she connects the panel and pushes in the breakers, hooks up the ground, even if that means all 104 lbs of her swinging a sledge hammer to drive a steel pipe deep into the earth, to hook the ground wire to. Her boss checks over her work of course because she has only been working for him 6 months, but he is extremely impressed with her work! She only makes $24 / hour right now, but once certified its nothing to pull in $90 plus per hour.
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I am an instructor, and recruiter, for one of the major International Apprenticeship programs. (Not the IBEW) I thought I was relatively familiar with the regional wage scales of the Trades. I guess not? The Bay Area, in the States, has some of the highest hourly wages for the Trades, but, also has one of the highest cost of living in the entire country. If you could, where are these $90 plus Journeymen Electrician jobs located? Also, I'm not familiar with the term "certified" electrician. Could you please educate me?
 
Screenshot_20191119-190432_Chrome.jpg The Okanagan area of BC is not a cheap place to live, and it is booming, trades people are in huge demand here, become a plumber, electrician etc and there is very good money to be made.
No I am not in the USA.
 
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Shuswap BC said:
become a plumber, electrician etc and there is very good money to be made.
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Didn’t realize plumbers and electricians made millions of dollars per year!
 
Shuswap BC said:
My daughter wants to become an electrician, they make exceptionally good money, work is plentiful, and she enjoys it. Right now her title is wire puller, its not an official title, but basically she does the hard work, and its the stepping stone to becoming an electrician in the future. She drills a lot of holes basically, pulls wire off of spools all over a house or commercial building, from the panel to whatever needs to be supplied electricity, she installs lights, fans, outlets, switches, heaters, etc. Then she connects the panel and pushes in the breakers, hooks up the ground, even if that means all 104 lbs of her swinging a sledge hammer to drive a steel pipe deep into the earth, to hook the ground wire to. Her boss checks over her work of course because she has only been working for him 6 months, but he is extremely impressed with her work! She only makes $24 / hour right now, but once certified its nothing to pull in $90 plus per hour.
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Sounds like an electrician to me, lol. When I did all of that at the start of my career (30+ years ago), I was officially titled 'Trades Helper' because at that time the agency started you off at a lower pay scale and title, then required you to take another written and practical test before promoting you to 'Electrician' - IBEW. I am currently an Electrical Systems Controller (19yrs) working in a large control room with 13KV switchgear, so I don't get to have fun doing the hard-dirty work anymore:D

Yeah, she definitely sounds qualified. Much more than a "wire puller".
 
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Shuswap BC said:
View attachment 79876 The Okanagan area of BC is not a cheap place to live, and it is booming, trades people are in huge demand here, become a plumber, electrician etc and there is very good money to be made.
No I am not in the USA.
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I work for the government, so I'm 'certified' through them and has never had a need to get an electrical license per se. That is why I never do side jobs or electrical work for anyone, other than minor things for family and very close friends.
Another fortunate thing for me, was being selected by my high school electrical shop teacher to participate in a work/study program at EWR, which allowed me to learn the trade in my junior and senior grades. So by the time I graduated high school, I was essentially a qualified Industrial Electrician, thus avoiding the need for a 4 year apprenticeship program.
 
CharlieD3 said:
Wow... Has this gone off the rails.
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Uhhh... new here? :)

CharlieD3 said:
My folks wanted me to go to college. I didn't.
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One shining semester for me... one of my numerous mistakes.

CharlieD3 said:
I haven't actually pushed a pencil on it, but would venture a guess that someone leaving highschool and going into a blue collar job (especially the trades) might actually come out ahead (with no student debt to be burdened with) at 65 over a vast majority of the college graduates today.

There are, no doubt, some college grads that will become 1%rs as well. But not the majority of them.
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I'll disagree to some extent. A degree will make things much, much easier for most people now, simply because (in my opinion/observation) the hiring process has changed dramatically since I was trying to find jobs. Back in the horse and buggy days, you used a resume, an introductory letter, and your charm and wits to get an interview, during which you had the opportunity to impress upon the interviewer your ability to do the job. I landed several very good jobs despite not having the supposed qualifications (education, experience) by virtue of being able to convince the hiring manager that I was what they needed for the position. And I was. With no college to speak of, I'm not exactly a 1%er... but let's just say if I croak tomorrow my wife won't starve in the street. Nor will she if we both live to be 90.

Now? Apply on line, tick the boxes, if you don't meet one of their requirements -- screw you, your resume won't even be seen by anyone. And neither will you, pal. Got 20 years as a technician but no degree? Tough luck, the job's going to someone with a Business Admin degree who might be productive in a few years. Thank God above I will never (knock on wood) have to try to find another job; that BSCJ I abandoned 40+ years ago to enlist would be, somehow, meaningful in the rarefied air of my little corner of the IT world.

I think the real problem is an educational system that gets students very deep into debt when they still suck at math... or are too dumb to realize that they will, in fact, not have employers competing with each other to offer them six-figure salaries, simply by virtue of the fact that they'll have that degree in BA or Communication Studies or whatever. The slower learners will realize their limited marketability, and decide that what they really need is a graduate degree.

Sigh.
 
redtail said:
I work for the government, so I'm 'certified' through them and has never had a need to get an electrical license per se. That is why I never do side jobs or electrical work for anyone, other than minor things for family and very close friends.
Another fortunate thing for me, was being selected by my high school electrical shop teacher to participate in a work/study program at EWR, which allowed me to learn the trade in my junior and senior grades. So by the time I graduated high school, I was essentially a qualified Industrial Electrician, thus avoiding the need for a 4 year apprenticeship program.
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That is awesome!

Her last summer holidays of high school, between grade 11 and 12, my friend offered her a summer job working for him at his electrical company, she loved it. She did a one year study at Okanagan College, and now works as an apprentice aka 'Wire puller' and will for each of the next three years go back to College for a couple of months. Then she can write the final exam, and if she passes ( I have no doubt that she will ) she becomes a certified electrician.
 
Shuswap BC said:
Depending on how much they work, more like 120,000 - 160,000 gross per year. Sure beats Walmart or most other jobs.
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Especially if you love what you do AND your employer provides an impressive medical/dental benefits package, pension (full benefits with 30yrs and age 55 or more), as well as a 457 deferred-compensation plan. A pretty decent life insurance policy provided by my employer and one provided by IBEW. So I can't complain.

With almost 34 years, I could have retired with reduced benefits or go next year at 55, but I will probably hang around and make a few more 'millions' :D
 
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Shuswap BC said:
That is awesome!

Her last summer holidays of high school, between grade 11 and 12, my friend offered her a summer job working for him at his electrical company, she loved it. She did a one year study at Okanagan College, and now works as an apprentice aka 'Wire puller' and will for each of the next three years go back to College for a couple of months. Then she can write the final exam, and if she passes ( I have no doubt that she will ) she becomes a certified electrician.
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I wish her much success. I've only met two female electricians during my career. Things have definitely improved for the better, over the years, in this male-dominated field of work.

A few tips, which she may or may not have considered.

1. Don't try to be one of the guys. Be yourself!

2. Don't expect special treatment because you are a woman! Get help if you need it, but not special treatment.

3. Do NOT except any form a harassment (sexual or any other). I had to deal with racial harassment when I was hired. THIS IS 2019 NOT 1920!
Now employers have to take these things seriously and take action, or face huge lawsuits. We're required to attend mandatory ethics and workplace practice, behavior and environment classes every year!

Good luck.
 
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