Why do we still have stadium TFRs?

rpadula

rpadula

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PancakeBunny
Doing my planning for tomorrow's BBQ and I see RDU is surrounded by 3 stadiums, so I re-read the TFR carefully (previously, I've just given them a wide berth):

...THIS RESTRICTION DOES NOT APPLY TO; (A) THOSE AIRCRAFT AUTHORIZED BY ATC FOR OPERATIONAL OR SAFETY PURPOSES INCLUDING AIRCRAFT ARRIVING OR DEPARTING FROM AN AIRPORT USING STANDARD AIR TRAFFIC PROCEDURES;...
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So, us BBQ'ers will be OK, but I was wondering... do people even look up and notice small airplanes anymore? Nobody I know, except pilots, do. Why do we even have this? To keep the masses from stampeding? Heck, half the people at football games are probably too drunk to stampede anyway...

Oh well, guess I'd better stop before this gets moved to the Spin Zone, but it seems to me it is time for these to go.


-Rich
 
i think the main purpose for the stadium TFRs in Ames is to predict days of excellent soaring weather. ill probably be headed to southern minnesota tomorrow for a tow.
 
The main point of all the stadium TFRs was to prevent banner towers from flying over and getting paid to do so without the major league or college sports people getting a cut of the actions. Just like the Disney TFR these are being used to set a precedent of corporate ownership of the skies.
 
smigaldi said:
The main point of all the stadium TFRs was to prevent banner towers from flying over and getting paid to do so without the major league or college sports people getting a cut of the actions. Just like the Disney TFR these are being used to set a precedent of corporate ownership of the skies.
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Geez, Scott. I thought it was to stop me from landing on the 50 yard line :D
 
RotaryWingBob said:
Geez, Scott. I thought it was to stop me from landing on the 50 yard line :D
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Emergency autorotation, it was a perfect landing spot.

Oh wait, the fuel switch was knocked to the off position... silly me. Well I guess I'll be going now. You boys have a great game.

:D
 
Scott's got it nailed. The NFL/NCAA/etc had been looking for years for a way to cut out the banner-towers over the stadiums (stadia?), and 9/11 gave them the excuse they needed. If it really was a safety/security issue, they'd've done it after that nut job crashed a C-150 into the upper deck at Memorial Stadium in Baltimore minutes after a Colts game in 1976 (and, believe it or not, survived his suicide attempt). If the venues/leagues got a cut of the revenue, they'd probably reopen the skies over the games tomorrow.
 
Ron Levy said:
Scott's got it nailed. The NFL/NCAA/etc had been looking for years for a way to cut out the banner-towers over the stadiums (stadia?), and 9/11 gave them the excuse they needed. If it really was a safety/security issue, they'd've done it after that nut job crashed a C-150 into the upper deck at Memorial Stadium in Baltimore minutes after a Colts game in 1976 (and, believe it or not, survived his suicide attempt). If the venues/leagues got a cut of the revenue, they'd probably reopen the skies over the games tomorrow.
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Exactly. Scott is right on. An invisible line in the sky isn't going to stop a maniac from crashing into a stadium. I don't think the FAR would be of much thought during the suicide run.

If you survived I think the FAR would be pretty low on the list with the murder, terrorism, etc above it.
 
Ron Levy said:
Scott's got it nailed. The NFL/NCAA/etc had been looking for years for a way to cut out the banner-towers over the stadiums (stadia?), and 9/11 gave them the excuse they needed. If it really was a safety/security issue, they'd've done it after that nut job crashed a C-150 into the upper deck at Memorial Stadium in Baltimore minutes after a Colts game in 1976 (and, believe it or not, survived his suicide attempt). If the venues/leagues got a cut of the revenue, they'd probably reopen the skies over the games tomorrow.
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While the revenue issue is probably the reason (just like Disney World), how much revenue do banner towers get anyway? Can't be enough to really fret about, can it? I know, every half cent counts. As if players and owners, etc. aren't paid enough as it is. :rolleyes:

What I want to know is, why didn't AOPA hire the NFL's and Disney's lobbyists?
 
You are all probably right about the money issue, but the inept homeland security bunch is at fault also. If you look at all the garbage those guys have come up with you can quickly reach the conclusion that they don't know diddly about aircraft, and even less about security. Don't trot out the argument that we haven't been hit since 9/11. The reason we haven't been is because the bad guys haven't tried yet!

My favorite "we're here to prove we have no brains" stunt was the one that put a TFR around all nuclear facilities (mostly power plants) right after 9/11. The only problem was they would not issue the TFR with a location (might tell the bad guys where the things were). I don't know if anyone got busted on that one, but ATC plotted the facilities the best they could and tried to keep pilots away.

Just so you don't blame the FAA for all the foolishness, TFR's are not originated by the FAA. Those in need of protected airspace (fire fighters, Neclear Regulatory Agency, Homeland Security, etc.) originate the paperwork and submitt it to the FAA for distribution. The FAA then plays watch dog and gets the dirty job of busting the unlucky pilots.
 
Scott - I'm outraged!!!!! You mean the Dept of Homeland Security and the TFR system is being exploited to protect private commercial interests, and not merely to protect our American way from the hateful Muslim hordes???!!!! Never!! We are protecting our God-fearing, football-loving American cities, and wholesome family-oriented amusement parks (but only two of them) from the ever-present threat of airborne attack by light aircraft. I can't believe you'd even dare to suggest that crass business interests are at the heart of this noble and highly-effective effort to protect our great American cities from omnipresent aerial threats. Shame, shame on you!!!!!!!!!!!!

Uhh, but when are they going to create TDRs on Ryder trucks? Oh, never mind, that would be too inconvenient. :(
 
JohnR said:
While the revenue issue is probably the reason (just like Disney World), how much revenue do banner towers get anyway?
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It's not how much the banner towers get -- it's how much the stadiums don't get, i.e., diversion of the revenue by a competing medium. Now, you pay what the stadium owners want for advertising space in the house, or you can't advertise at all.
 
Not addressed yet is the stadium TFRs also apply to college games. Is this "extension" to make the TFR seem more 'equitable'?

The banner ops now tow 12' letters or 4,000 sq ft (approx) billboards. These are quite legible from outside the 3 sm perimeter.
 
They usually seemed a little pointless to me. We have a TFR over Stillwater, ok tomorrow for the game. Heck, tower uses the stadium as a checkpoint for incoming traffic.
 
swamppilot said:
You are all probably right about the money issue, but the inept homeland security bunch is at fault also. If you look at all the garbage those guys have come up with you can quickly reach the conclusion that they don't know diddly about aircraft, and even less about security. Don't trot out the argument that we haven't been hit since 9/11. The reason we haven't been is because the bad guys haven't tried yet!

Just so you don't blame the FAA for all the foolishness, TFR's are not originated by the FAA. Those in need of protected airspace (fire fighters, Neclear Regulatory Agency, Homeland Security, etc.) originate the paperwork and submitt it to the FAA for distribution. The FAA then plays watch dog and gets the dirty job of busting the unlucky pilots.
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It was interesting to read about former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's "snowflakes." Those nuggets of wisdom from Planet Paranoia.
It is any wonder that the economy is faltering with such a lack of trustworthiness.
:blueplane:
ApacheBob
 
Stadium TFRs are necessary to protect visiting politicians to NASCAR races. You can't get a shot for everything!
 
Richard said:
Not addressed yet is the stadium TFRs also apply to college games. Is this "extension" to make the TFR seem more 'equitable'?
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No -- it's the same issue as pro games -- the colleges want the advertising dollars, too.

The banner ops now tow 12' letters or 4,000 sq ft (approx) billboards. These are quite legible from outside the 3 sm perimeter.
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They may be legible, but the banner isn't noticeable that far out.
 
I'm reminded Disney also managed to gain a long, sought-after, permanent "TFR" over their amusement parks.
 
Can't blame the FAA for the Disney silliness. That the fault of our corrupt Congress. From Avweb:

The Orlando Sentinel published a story on May 11 (2003) that questions the need to have flight restrictions over the Disney complex and the alleged behind-the-scenes pressure used by park officials to get the TFR in place. The paper also questions the need to have security at the Disney theme parks on par with such sites as federal research labs, weapons depots, and nuclear military installations. According to the article, the no-fly zone was granted without any input from national security agencies, such as the Secret Service, Defense Department, Office of Homeland Security and the Transportation Security Administration. "Without public debate or even a request from the new Homeland Security Department, Congress bent its own rules to help Disney secure the no-fly zones at the urging of at least one well-connected company lobbyist," the Sentinel wrote. The Sentinel's report also links theme-park lobbyists and some key U.S. senators who helped include the no-fly zones in the legislation. Joe Kittinger, a retired Air Force colonel, said politics, not security, closed the airspace. "Disney tried to make that restricted airspace for years but couldn't until now because the airspace belongs to the people, not to a corporation," said Kittinger. "They've achieved it now under the guise of national security, and there is absolutely no reason for it."
 
Ron Levy said:
It's not how much the banner towers get -- it's how much the stadiums don't get, i.e., diversion of the revenue by a competing medium. Now, you pay what the stadium owners want for advertising space in the house, or you can't advertise at all.
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True, yet how about the Modis building in downtown Jacksonville, visible from Alltel stadium - they ought to cover up the word "Modis" during games, doggonit! Or does Modis pay the NFL to put their word somewhere visible during games?

So why not just have an FAR saying no person shall operate aerial advertising over commercial sporting events?
 
Actually, the three TFRs around here (RDU) are all (I believe) for college stadiums (Duke, UNC, NCSU).
 
You have to ask why the Feds think that a terrorist who wants to crash an airplane into a stadium would not do so because there is a TFR?
 
It probably isn't profitable, but what about using an Air Tractor with a massive 16,000sf banner behind? Go big or go home...

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
JohnR said:
While the revenue issue is probably the reason (just like Disney World), how much revenue do banner towers get anyway? Can't be enough to really fret about, can it? I know, every half cent counts. As if players and owners, etc. aren't paid enough as it is. :rolleyes:

What I want to know is, why didn't AOPA hire the NFL's and Disney's lobbyists?
Click to expand...

It's not the revenue the banner towers get, it's the loss of revenue that the venue gets for their monopolistic advertising prices. Nobody would use a banner tow if it wasn't cheaper for the impact.
 
The other aspect is control. Part of the advertising deals are exclusivity. They can better guarantee that (for a price) without those pesky banners.
 
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