Why do CFI's Discourage Sport Pilot

[wabower]

I'm sure it's possible that some instructor at some airport somewhere in the US keeps a calculator in his/her pocket in order to determine how much more time will/might/maybe be billed to pilots seeking PPL vs LSA. Since I've never met one, please post a name and address when you find them.

A lot of response I've seen are still the discouraging type of responses. "It's not really meant to draw new pilots", "It only take 6 more hours", "If you can pass the medical then why not do it", and on and on. You could argue all day about the real reasons, or the actual difference in training times, or whether medicals are necessary. But the facts are, without even needing to argue the numbers, it's cheaper to get started, it cost less to get started, and you don't need the medical.

LSA interest people who would otherwise not be interested in the time/cost/hassle. I was put off of flying for the cost of training, but when I read about sport pilot I got the bug and started learning more about it. So I don't need a medical, big deal, but that's one less thing to worry about. I can't fly at night, so what, nothing to see. Can't fly in IMC, good, I don't want to put myself in that situation anyway. If my Instructor also instructs ppl, then my time counts toward the ppl if I want to go that route. It's just all full of win.

Others undoubtably have opinions different than mine regarding those subjects, and my own opinions are likely to change as well. I don't understand why some people are so against something that is clearly just another option. Questions that have no right or wrong answer seem to have the most passionate responses. High wing vs low wing, tail dragger vs tricycle, sport vs private, tastes great vs less filling.

The original intent of the question however was to get some insider perspective of how a CFI thinks. Do they discourage SPL because it doesn't take as long? do they want tailwheel training separate so they can squeeze more hours out of a student? When they have lots of openings in the schedule do they putz around and have you repeat things unnecessarily? Obviously not everyone would do that, but maybe you've seen it before

 

[ja_user]

The simpliest answer could always be that there are only 3 available LSA's for rent within 30 miles, and there are dozens of PPL certified four seat aircraft.

You are probably the same guy that would feel ripped of afterwards, when they realize that the only thing available to rent is more than a cherokee or C172, and hauls considerably less.... Oh, and there are only 3 of the, so the availability isnt there...

 

[poadeleted21]

 

[LDJones]

I'm sure it's possible that some instructor at some airport somewhere in the US keeps a calculator in his/her pocket in order to determine how much more time will/might/maybe be billed to pilots seeking PPL vs LSA. Since I've never met one, please post a name and address when you find them.

Personally, I'd just as soon get a SP rated and move onto the next SP student. Successful checkrides mean more to me than the number of instruction hours i log with any particular student. I'm all for the SP rating and LSAs (although I wish the latter were as cheap as originally contemplated!)

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I don't buy this argument. Sure, some LSAs are severely weight-limited, like the Skycatcher. Half tanks and two normal sized people is about all you can get in it, I think (possibly untrue...I have a whopping 0.6 hrs in one, never looked at the w/b). However, the Tecnam Eaglet I fly does fine with two 200 pound guys.

Gross - empty - full fuel = two 200 pound guys plus some change
1320 - 760 - 6 * 24 = 415

From what I understand, the Remos is even better on useful load. Maybe almost 100 pounds better? That airframe is pretty light. And there are more.

With full fuel and 400 pounds of lard in the seats, I can only carry 61 pounds of baggage.

Obviously, I need bigger fuel tanks.

 

[JB1842]

I'm a sport pilot. I have no problems passing a medical. I did it because sport flying is all I wanted to do. Now that I'm getting a Cessna 150, I have no choice to upgrade if I want to fly it, but that's fine. When I took the written test, the guys at the flight school (a different one) that was the testing place were wondering why I was only doing sport. They were surprised by my answer of, "That's the only type of flying I want to do right now." The guys at the school there seemed like I was ruining their day of sitting around. It was great weather that day and they had no students that day. Made me wonder why. My flight school specializes in sport pilot. They have 3 Piper Cubs and a Piper Cherokee. They love sport pilot training. And it shows. In the spring and summer, you have to schedule your lessons a month in advance to get an open slot, and I probably took 2 weeks off from work on good weather days. My school is one of the most welcoming, making you feel like family business that I have run across. It's too bad a lot of CFI's/schools don't take this approach to sport pilot.

 

[tinerj]

Ask a PPI who does not train Sport Plane pilots what the rules are concerning Sport Plane limitations and Sport Pilot limitations. They can't know without additional training. I think some people are using the word 'training' as air time. Open a book to read about it is training, too.

Apply for an airline job -- what type of time in the log book looks better. CFI of sport pilots or CFI of PPL pilots?

The point is that some CFIs prefer to do what they have been doing and think PPL training will look better in their log books.

 

[bqmassey]

The original intent of the question however was to get some insider perspective of how a CFI thinks.

What makes you think that the following aren't the reasons?

A lot of response I've seen are still the discouraging type of responses. "It's not really meant to draw new pilots", "It only take 6 more hours", "If you can pass the medical then why not do it", and on and on. You could argue all day about the real reasons, or the actual difference in training times, or whether medicals are necessary. But the facts are, without even needing to argue the numbers, it's cheaper to get started, it cost less to get started, and you don't need the medical.

You seem hellbent on the idea that it's someone out to get you.

Since you seem so sure that those aren't the reasons that CFIs push the PP, why don't you tell us what the reasons are.

 

[saintlfd]

I am a SP student, at 58 y.o. I want to fly and getting a 3rd class medical, while achievable, will be a hassle for me. I am happy to get started with day VFR. Maybe I'll decide I want something more; THEN I will jump through the medical hoops.

I want to be skilled and proficient. I know that's not 20 hours of flying--at least not for me--because I already have 22 hours of dual. I will train until I satisfy the requirements and then I will train some more--tailwheel, hood time, maybe floats or mountain flying. All will come in due course. I did not take the SP route to legally kill myself sooner.

I have interviewed potential instructors who derisively dismissed SP and LSA's. And I have paid schools and CFI's for SP training only to learn, eventually, they were milking the process--not helping me earn a rating. So, addressing the OP's point, the CFI can run up the hours without pushing the PP. Some just aren't that creative, I guess.

GA seems to be like much of the business world--a mixed bag of 'professionals'. Some truly competent and caring, some not. Caveat emptor.

 

[steingar]

The OP has a point. I myself would tell him to get the private. Were I a CFI taking his money, I might be somewhat more inclined to ask him what he wants. That's just good business.

 

[murphey]

Since you seem so sure that those aren't the reasons that CFIs push the PP, why don't you tell us what the reasons are.

1. Far too many CFIs don't have the same amount of experience (or any) in LSAs as the traditional GA trainers. It really is a level of comfort issue.

Yes, you can pick it up rapidly but it's still a learning process. And many CFIs aren't willing to pay out of their pocket for the 3-5 hours needed for familiarity. For example, in one of the traditional GA trainers (O320 or O360 engine) rpm max is 2700. In the Rotax world, it's 5500!

Then there's the "feel" of the substantially lighter aircraft. Some people love it, some find it very disconcerting. And then there's the operating characteristics, particularly in landing. I own a cherokee but am checked out in the Remos & GOBOSH (or whatever it's called) and know the RPM and landing differences really freaked me out the first time.

2. LSAs are really few and far between in most schools. This is a substantial investment for a school and the $150K for an LSA or $40K for an older C172 is a no-brainer, from the front-end economics.

3. It's not an issue of medical or not, or mission or not. It's what the Customer wants. They are paying the bills, and unless there's a compelling reason that the Customer finds valid, then why argue? If, down the road, the Customer finds the SP is not adequate, then they can pursue the next step.

4. And not every CFI and/or school discourages SP. The OP found one that prefers not to push SP.

 

[bqmassey]

murphey, you missed my point.

My point was that the OP asked for reasons why CFIs push the PP. People provided very feasible reasons. OP, who seems sure that there is malevolent intent, dismisses those reasons.

I don't think he's looking for knowledge, looks to me like he's just someone on his side, declaring injustice.

Since you seem so sure that those aren't the reasons that CFIs push the PP, why don't you tell us what the reasons are.

Since he seem to care what other people think the reasons are, I asked him to just go ahead and enlighten us all.

 

[nosehair]

Inexperienced CFI's teach what they know, which is repeating the way they were trained. Not many know Sport Pilot, or Rec Pilot, or Tailwheel, or Acro, or spins, or making the 180 turn around for engine failure on take-off, etc, etc, etc.

Just like any kind of flying, you have to find a CFI/school with the specific experience that you wish to get.

Most big flight schools are like big box stores, catering to the masses, which Sport Pilot has not yet become.

 

[QuiQuog]

Since you seem so sure that those aren't the reasons that CFIs push the PP,

My question wasn't what are some good reasons for going PPL over SPL, my question was why would a CFI want to push me away from SPL. It's a subtle difference, but it is different. The former would be from my perspective, asking for reasons that I would want to choose one over the other, the latter is asking why someone else would want me to choose one over the other.

why don't you tell us what the reasons are.

I did give a reason that I thought it might be, in my OP when I said that my cynical gut thinks that they want to squeeze more money out of prospective students.

Some people gave other valid reasons why a CFI would rather encourage someone to go PPL ofer SPL; They're not up on the regs regarding SPL, maybe they're not comfortable flying in them, the canditate may be too heavy for LSA. Things I had not thought about. That's why I asked the question, to get a better understanding. A lot of the answers were not what I was looking for, which were reasons that I personally might want to choose one over the other; Cost, Time; Skill; Medical

So the reasons that I want to do SPL over PPL?
Time:
Sport is 20 Private is 40. That's half the time. I realize that it may take more time than the minimum, but it should be more or less eaqually more.
Cost:
Half the time equals half the cost (see caveats above)
Medical:
If I don't have to, I don't want to. I'll save the time and money and not worry about a denial.

The reasons that a CFI would want me to do SPL over PPL?
I just don't see a benefit to him, unless a lot of people are wanting sport and he can fill up his time slots. But if canditates are few and far between, then I see the benefit of the upsell.

 

[steingar]

If you can't afford the training, bail now. It never gets cheaper. If you just can't wait, bail now, flying is only for the patient. The more training one gets the less likely one is going to wind up at the bottom of a smoking crater.

Why do CFI's not recommend the SP? It probably involves some sort of extra effort they don't want to do.

There are a couple threads on POA about SP vs PPL. There should be enough in them to answer whatever questions you may have. If not, you will probably not find what you seek in this venue.

 

[QuiQuog]

I came in here for an argument!

Oh! Oh, I'm sorry, this is abuse. You want 12A next door.

 

[QuiQuog]

If you can't afford the training, bail now. It never gets cheaper. If you just can't wait, bail now, flying is only for the patient. The more training one gets the less likely one is going to wind up at the bottom of a smoking crater.

Why do CFI's not recommend the SP? It probably involves some sort of extra effort they don't want to do.

There are a couple threads on POA about SP vs PPL. There should be enough in them to answer whatever questions you may have. If not, you will probably not find what you seek in this venue.

Okay. Thanks. 12A then?

 

[jesse]

I don't discourage it - but the fact of the matter is - someone can get a private pilots certificate with me for less money than a sport pilot certificate would cost them in my area.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

So if one of the stated reasons for the sport pilot category is to increase interest in general aviation by encouraging people to get into flying by costing less up front, taking roughly half the training time and not having to bother with a medical, why does it seem that instructors are always trying to talk me into private pilot?

So why discourage that?

Unfamiliarity, and as another poster suggested, "ego investment."

IMO, the biggest limitation of LSA/SP is that it's hard to find places to rent LSA's, which limits your options. If you live in an area that has places to rent LSA's, go for it... But don't be surprised at the experience you describe. Too many people have gone the "traditional" route, and they're the CFI's now, so they tell you to do what they did, and then they come up with reasons to defend it.

The established aviation industry really doesn't "get" LSA/SP, and it hurts us all.

That said, if the folks at that flight school aren't listening to you, then you should probably take your business to one where they will. But first, you might talk this over with the Chief Instructor, General Manager, or owner of the school where you're training. Give them a chance to make it right with you. And if they don't, then say "sayonara" and find a better-managed school.

Sadly, it's not always that easy. There's a single LSA available in southern Wisconsin, an Ercoupe at an FBO that has at least a couple dozen "traditional" trainers. You can't say sayonara to them and go for another LSA without incurring a 100+ mile drive to the next place that does SP training.

Never mind the facts! CFIs discourage LSA training!

Never mind that it's 40% of what we do at our base.
CFIs discourage LSA training!
Never mind the reality.

sigh.

So, Hobo Djoe, how much do you weigh? It's relevant!

Bruce, I've seen it. Some places do sport pilot training and do quite well with it, and it sounds like you're in one of those places. Other places, the established folks dig in their heels, talk about how "those aren't real airplanes," and push away potential new pilots.

I'm a sport pilot. I have no problems passing a medical. I did it because sport flying is all I wanted to do. Now that I'm getting a Cessna 150, I have no choice to upgrade if I want to fly it, but that's fine. When I took the written test, the guys at the flight school (a different one) that was the testing place were wondering why I was only doing sport. They were surprised by my answer of, "That's the only type of flying I want to do right now." The guys at the school there seemed like I was ruining their day of sitting around. It was great weather that day and they had no students that day. Made me wonder why. My flight school specializes in sport pilot. They have 3 Piper Cubs and a Piper Cherokee. They love sport pilot training. And it shows. In the spring and summer, you have to schedule your lessons a month in advance to get an open slot, and I probably took 2 weeks off from work on good weather days. My school is one of the most welcoming, making you feel like family business that I have run across. It's too bad a lot of CFI's/schools don't take this approach to sport pilot.

Lemme guess... You got your SP training at Hartford and took the written at Spring City?


When I become a CFI, I won't be doing sport pilot training - But that's because with me and a couple hours of fuel, my students would have to weigh less than 30 pounds in most LSA's. Well, the Skycatcher at least. But I sure won't discourage it. SP/LSA could bring lots of new people into aviation, if we'd just embrace it. Sigh.

 

[steingar]

I don't discourage it - but the fact of the matter is - someone can get a private pilots certificate with me for less money than a sport pilot certificate would cost them in my area.

Cheaper to rent vintage airplanes than new Light Sport Aircraft?

 

[jesse]

Cheaper to rent vintage airplanes than new Light Sport Aircraft?

Yes. It costs less to train with me in a Cherokee than it does to pay the higher dual instruction rate and the higher rental rate on the local 162 the competition operates.

Even with the potential difference in hours required the total investment is still less.

 

[JB1842]

Lemme guess... You got your SP training at Hartford and took the written at Spring City?

You are correct. I really got a bad vibe from the people at Spring City. One of the instructors didn't know how to get the test computer operating, either. Think I will take the written next time at West Bend. I also looked in Racine Sport Flyers. They fly the CTLS. If I wouldn't have won the 150, I was planning on getting checked out in a CTLS with them. I decided that it would be better for me to learn in a Cub. Everybody I've talked to says that starting out in a tailwheel makes you a better pilot. We'll see soon enough.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

You are correct. I really got a bad vibe from the people at Spring City. One of the instructors didn't know how to get the test computer operating, either. Think I will take the written next time at West Bend.

Not that the written is exactly the kind of business a place looks for, but I can't stand the FBO at West Bend. They have the most aviation-discouraging rental agreement I've ever seen, by far. I think I'm gonna go back to Madison to take my next writtens...

 

[JB1842]

I've never been to the West Bend airport. If it's that bad, maybe I'll just go back to Spring City.

 

[bqmassey]

The former would be from my perspective, asking for reasons that I would want to choose one over the other, the latter is asking why someone else would want me to choose one over the other.

Maybe someone else would want you to chose one over the other for the exact same reasons that you might want to chose one over the other. Maybe those two aren't different. Maybe there's not a hidden agenda, and the CFIs are just telling you the same thing they would do themselves.

Remember, when you're asking a CFI for his opinion, you're asking someone who did go ahead and get the private pilot's license.

So the reasons that I want to do SPL over PPL?
Time:
Sport is 20 Private is 40. That's half the time. I realize that it may take more time than the minimum, but it should be more or less eaqually more.
Cost:
Half the time equals half the cost (see caveats above)
Medical:
If I don't have to, I don't want to. I'll save the time and money and not worry about a denial.

I think you're being really optimistic if you think that you'll spend half as much money doing SP that you would doing PP. As others have said, there isn't that much of a difference.

I would also recommend private pilot as well. Why?

If you get the PP rating and decide that you don't need the privileges, you can let the medical go and fly under sport pilot rules. Any time you want to get back into a larger plane, it's only a medical away.

If you get the SP rating, and a few years down the road you decide that you want to utilize some PP privilege, you have to get a medical, possibly learn a new airframe, spend money training up for the private pilot checkride and building trust with a new instructor so he'll sign you off, pay for a new written, and pay for a checkride.

I promise you, if you ever decide to go get the rating later, it's going to cost you a lot more time and money than it will if you just do it now, while you have all of that momentum.

And, you might like having some of the privileges.

 

[jpower]

I came in here for an argument!

Okay. Thanks. 12A then?

Hey look! It worked! Maybe I suggest the Argument Clinic in more threads.

 

[QuiQuog]

Okay Brandon. Thank you.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I would also recommend private pilot as well. Why?

If you get the PP rating and decide that you don't need the privileges, you can let the medical go and fly under sport pilot rules. Any time you want to get back into a larger plane, it's only a medical away.

If you get the SP rating, and a few years down the road you decide that you want to utilize some PP privilege, you have to get a medical, possibly learn a new airframe, spend money training up for the private pilot checkride and building trust with a new instructor so he'll sign you off, pay for a new written, and pay for a checkride.

I promise you, if you ever decide to go get the rating later, it's going to cost you a lot more time and money than it will if you just do it now, while you have all of that momentum.

And, you might like having some of the privileges.

At the same time, if people get the SP, they can start taking friends and family for rides, which can provide great motivation (and potentially spousal support when they see how cool it is) to get the Private finished. Sporty's flight school used to (maybe still does) have all of their students get the Recreational certificate first and then the private. All it costs you is whatever a checkride costs.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Saving money up front and getting passenger carrying abilities sooner is not to be overlooked. Folks involved have said there is a significant hour difference between sp/pp what would be a dozen or so pre-ticket hours can be spent doing shared cost burger runs if one becomes a sp. Money in the tummy and fun cheaper and sooner. Getting the pp to exercise sp privileges is bad economics, I went to cfi h/g and only use private privileges, be nice to have that money to spend on personal sport flying.

 

[QuiQuog]

At the same time, if people get the SP, they can start taking friends and family for rides, which can provide great motivation (and potentially spousal support when they see how cool it is) to get the Private finished.

That's the way I see it. And maybe you get your friend interested as well.

Saving money up front and getting passenger carrying abilities sooner is not to be overlooked. Folks involved have said there is a significant hour difference between sp/pp what would be a dozen or so pre-ticket hours can be spent doing shared cost burger runs if one becomes a sp. Money in the tummy and fun cheaper and sooner. Getting the pp to exercise sp privileges is bad economics, I went to cfi h/g and only use private privileges, be nice to have that money to spend on personal sport flying.

And those hours would be in safe good weather daylight conditions, building time and experience that will be useful if you decide to get PPl.

 

[Shepherd]

Because in reality the difference is about 6 hours of instruction, so if you can pass the medical why not get the PPL, you can always fly LSAs

Not to ridicule, but this is, well, ridiculous.

The number of people, who get their ticket with minimal hours is statistically insignificant. The reality is that most students take more than 50% more than the minimum time.
The course of study that I recommend to everyone (especially older guys just getting into it, and kids who don't have a rich daddy) is start with your Sport rating. But don't fly Sport requirements. Fly the PPL requirements, cross country, etc, etc. Anything that takes more miles or more time the Sport cert requires, do it. It counts if you go on to PPL.
Take your Sport checkride. Get your Sport Cert. You now have proof of return on investment.
Now take the Mrs, the Mr, the girlfriend, the boyfriend, the kids, whatever, whoever, flying. Have fun.
Rack up hours. Hone your mad skills.
Now look at what's left: A Medical, Night work, Hood time, and a checkride. If you can pass a medical, go for it. If not, fly the heck out of your Sport cert.

BTW it's about 20%++ cheaper to go the Sport to PPL because Light Sport rentals are significantly cheaper.

And one other little bit of opinionizing, while I have the floor:
All the "my pecker is bigger than your pecker" posturing that goes on in the aviation world does more to turn people off, and away, from flying than just about anything else, even money.
If someone is really motivated to learn to fly, they will crawl through broken glass to find a way to pay for it. As soon as some jerk ridicules them, then the dream dies, and so does the motivation.

Glenn

 

[steingar]

BTW it's about 20%++ cheaper to go the Sport to PPL because Light Sport rentals are significantly cheaper.

In which universe?

 

[ja_user]

I don't discourage it - but the fact of the matter is - someone can get a private pilots certificate with me for less money than a sport pilot certificate would cost them in my area.

Same here, and they don't have the availability issues of the 3 LSA's...



Why do CFI's discourage the Recreational License?

 

[steingar]

Why do CFI's discourage the Recreational License?

The fellow from whom I bought my first airplane tried to get his students to obtain the recreational license en route to the private. Nationally I don't think they've given out much more than a few hundred of those things.

 

[poadeleted21]

Same here, and they don't have the availability issues of the 3 LSA's...



Why do CFI's discourage the Recreational License?

Because its a pointless license for almost anyone, jut like SPL would be if it had a class 3 medical requirement.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The fellow from whom I bought my first airplane tried to get his students to obtain the recreational license en route to the private. Nationally I don't think they've given out much more than a few hundred of those things.

Last I saw there were 300+ recreational pilots on the registry, but that doesn't mean that's all they've handed out - It's just that all but 3xx of 'em have moved on to higher ratings.

Recreational may let you fly more airplanes than Sport, but otherwise it is WAY more limiting.

 

[LandSickness]

Not to ridicule, but this is, well, ridiculous.

The number of people, who get their ticket with minimal hours is statistically insignificant. The reality is that most students take more than 50% more than the minimum time.
The course of study that I recommend to everyone (especially older guys just getting into it, and kids who don't have a rich daddy) is start with your Sport rating. But don't fly Sport requirements. Fly the PPL requirements, cross country, etc, etc. Anything that takes more miles or more time the Sport cert requires, do it. It counts if you go on to PPL.
Take your Sport checkride. Get your Sport Cert. You now have proof of return on investment.
Now take the Mrs, the Mr, the girlfriend, the boyfriend, the kids, whatever, whoever, flying. Have fun.
Rack up hours. Hone your mad skills.
Now look at what's left: A Medical, Night work, Hood time, and a checkride. If you can pass a medical, go for it. If not, fly the heck out of your Sport cert.

Best use of the SPL program by far and every Sport Pilot I've ever encountered either can't get a hassle free medical or proceeds, quite seemlessly, to PPL. The key is the training, especially if you happen to be in one of those golden areas where an LSA rents cheaper than a regular single engine piston.

BTW it's about 20%++ cheaper to go the Sport to PPL because Light Sport rentals are significantly cheaper.

I thought of going to Red Stewart field in Ohio just because the rental rates were super cheap. There's no such rate here in NOVA except CSP in Bay Bridge, which is 90 miles from me. I do think its unfair to compare brand new LSAs to 40 year old 150s & 172s. All things equal, LSA is cheaper.

And one other little bit of opinionizing, while I have the floor:
All the "my pecker is bigger than your pecker" posturing that goes on in the aviation world does more to turn people off, and away, from flying than just about anything else, even money.
If someone is really motivated to learn to fly, they will crawl through broken glass to find a way to pay for it. As soon as some jerk ridicules them, then the dream dies, and so does the motivation.

Glenn

"The Club" seems sometimes to not want new members, especially if there's a new different, seemingly easier approach to certs. To Purists the SPL is a shortcut and not a "real" license. Don't get me started on the "conventional gear" Purists....

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

In which universe?

http://www.skywalkerflying.com/rates.php

On the other hand, here the brand new 162 is $7.00 per hour more than the 30 year old 152s...

 

[steingar]

http://www.skywalkerflying.com/rates.php

Figures it's in Michigan.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

On the other hand, here the brand new 162 is $7.00 per hour more than the 30 year old 152s...

Yeah, but a brand-new airplane is gonna keep a lot more people around for their second flight than a ratted-out 40-year-old 152/172...