Why can't the Navy...

Henning

Henning

Taxi to Parking
Gone West
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iHenning
Lease out the hardware to make hydrogen? It can pay for new equipment it needs with the old equipment it has, the water generated has a collection and resale value and that profit goes into treasury for funding government on the value of water.
 
It's easier to spend loans taken out on future tax dollars, especially when the general public supports signing blank checks for anything military related. They're not tasked with creating a profit and being solvent. What do you want them to do? Hold a bake sale or win wars?
 
bartmc said:
It's easier to spend loans taken out on future tax dollars, especially when the general public supports signing blank checks for anything military related. They're not tasked with creating a profit and being solvent. What do you want them to do? Hold a bake sale or win wars?
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Bake sale.
 
Not their yob, mon.
Henning said:
Lease out the hardware to make hydrogen? It can pay for new equipment it needs with the old equipment it has, the water generated has a collection and resale value and that profit goes into treasury for funding government on the value of water.
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Well if all we do is all we did how do we expect to get anything besides what we got?
 
Henning said:
Lease out the hardware to make hydrogen? It can pay for new equipment it needs with the old equipment it has, the water generated has a collection and resale value and that profit goes into treasury for funding government on the value of water.
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A serious answer might be found in the FARs.

Is the DoD allowed to compete with industry?

Is the DoD allowed to use tax dollars to develop & build power generation capability and then sell it or give it away?
 
Why isn't it their job? What about a strong economy is not within General Welfare or Common Defense. Why do we limit this to killing things things rather than allowing it to provide things? The market is refusing to provide what we need. The people have the right to demand what they want and the opportunity to vote with their pocket books. Corruption should not be allowed to staunch economic and social progress, that is Tyranny.
 
Ummmmm maybe I'm missing something, but the easiest, ( but energy intensive ), way to get hydrogen is to strip it from water by electrolysis. The only by product from eliminating the H from H2O is O. What water are you talking about????
 
Make Jimmy Carter the organizational chair with an emeritus oversight position and let's get the thing running. The car manufacturers are chomping at the bits for this, all their em missions troubles gone, but they need to modify the gear to condense and collect the water. That is where the extra level of efficiency comes from. Everything we perceive in the universe is born of hydrogen, there is a reason for that, it converts very efficiently between states and bonds. The economics of hydrogen come from the value of fresh water in rebate for energy consumption. For the work of every gallon of fuel consumed, (1 gal gas = 1 kg H2 work performed) nets you back 9 liters or around two and a third gallons of pure water. Water has a retail value.
 
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Is the DoD allowed to compete with industry?

Is the DoD allowed to use tax dollars to develop & build power generation capability and then sell it or give it away?
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The Japanese Government used billions to help develop the high speed rail technology, then turned it over to private enterprise. They have arguably the best HSR system in the world. The USA invented mag-lev trains, but without government investment in the technology, we dropped it, and other countries who had governmental support for new technologies picked it up. We, on the other hand used the specter of Star Wars defense to cause the Soviets to spend themselves out of power in fear of something that never even worked (or may have never existed).
 
From your simplistic point of view that might be true. Unfortunately, the rest of the world, including the private enterprise system whose job is to do such stuff, doesn't agree with the premise or your solution.

Henning said:
Why isn't it their job? What about a strong economy is not within General Welfare or Common Defense. Why do we limit this to killing things things rather than allowing it to provide things? The market is refusing to provide what we need. The people have the right to demand what they want and the opportunity to vote with their pocket books. Corruption should not be allowed to staunch economic and social progress, that is Tyranny.
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wabower said:
From your simplistic point of view that might be true. Unfortunately, the rest of the world, including the private enterprise system whose job is to do such stuff, doesn't agree with the premise or your solution.
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Correct, because it doesn't follow the Ponzi model, it's reveloutionary in efficiency and you just can't wrap your mind around it so it can't be so. Fight all you want, it will come, question is only will it come soon enough.
 
Henning said:
Correct, because it doesn't follow the Ponzi model, it's reveloutionary in efficiency and you just can't wrap your mind around it so it can't be so. Fight all you want, it will come, question is only will it come soon enough.
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You got this one wrong my friend.

Here is an example.

Say we were roommates, and we shared a car. We both agree to pay the payments, pay for the general maintenance costs, the cost of parking, and all that jazz. In the end, it comes 2,000 a year each.

For a living, we each own a pizza shop, that does deliveries, and we each have a business car for that.

One day I say "wait a minute, I have this car at home that just sits there 90% of the time. Why don't I just lease myself that when it's not being used, and I can save some money". So I lease myself the car, and I share the proceeds with you 50/50.

Here is the problem. I can now deliver pizzas for less money they you, because I pay less for transportation, and my business goes up. What you get out of the deal, is the luxury of knowing you're spending $2000 a year to subsidize my ability to put you out of businesses (minus whatever you earn in the lease).
 
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Henning said:
Make Jimmy Carter the organizational chair with an emeritus oversight position and let's get the thing running.
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Since his presidency (I think he was president once) he has majored in monitoring 3rd world elections and promoting Habitat for Humanity, one of my favorite charities. He may be accomplished at those things or running a submarine or growing peanuts but it hardly qualifies him to manage the start a whole new energy industry IMHO.:no::no:

Sancho Panza, let the man alone and find a different Man From La Mancha.:wink2:

Cheers
 
Threefingeredjack said:
Ummmmm maybe I'm missing something, but the easiest, ( but energy intensive ), way to get hydrogen is to strip it from water by electrolysis. The only by product from eliminating the H from H2O is O. What water are you talking about????
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Electrolysis is a cute experiment but hasn't proven practical for large scale hydrogen production. Currently steam and a catalyst are used (I believe).

I can produce methane (in natural gas) a lot cheaper than anyone can produce hydrogen. In other words, hydrogen's time has not come.
 
Henning said:
Lease out the hardware to make hydrogen? It can pay for new equipment it needs with the old equipment it has, the water generated has a collection and resale value and that profit goes into treasury for funding government on the value of water.
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Sorry, there's a whole thread going already, but I missed something on post #1:

What hardware does the Navy have to "make hydrogen"?

What was the Navy's intended use for this hardware, how does it work, and why is the Navy not currently using it?

In other words..."Um, what???"
 
Jim_R said:
Sorry, there's a whole thread going already, but I missed something on post #1:

What hardware does the Navy have to "make hydrogen"?

What was the Navy's intended use for this hardware, how does it work, and why is the Navy not currently using it?

In other words..."Um, what???"
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Nuclear submarines sitting at the dock without a job. Those shafts can turn generators as easily as props. On the boomers you can pull the missile tubes and put in the electrolysis equipment.
 
wabower said:
Another predictably eloquent response. The adage that phonies always blow under pressure holds true again.
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The pressure of what, a void of reasoning? I keep getting told that things cannot work because they don't fit a model that does not work. The arguments I get are the same level of ignorant idiocy. I am given nothing to argue without stooping to idiocy.
 
Weak.
Henning said:
The pressure of what, a void of reasoning? I keep getting told that things cannot work because they don't fit a model that does not work. The arguments I get are the same level of ignorant idiocy. I am given nothing to argue without stooping to idiocy.
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Henning said:
The pressure of what, a void of reasoning? I keep getting told that things cannot work because they don't fit a model that does not work. The arguments I get are the same level of ignorant idiocy. I am given nothing to argue without stooping to idiocy.
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??? I've reminded folks that natural gas is cheaper to produce than hydrogen. You haven't addressed that point.
 
Clark1961 said:
??? I've reminded folks that natural gas is cheaper to produce than hydrogen. You haven't addressed that point.
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How does natural gas produce potable water and electricity at the same time? If you think oil is valuable, water is even more so, and we're in trouble with it. We can be prepared for the future or not.
 
Henning said:
Nuclear submarines sitting at the dock without a job. Those shafts can turn generators as easily as props. On the boomers you can pull the missile tubes and put in the electrolysis equipment.
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How much will it cost to do that?

Do we mothball the sub?

What's the output of the reactor?

Who operates the reactor?

Do we declassify the sub so that anyone can operate it?

Do we de-mil the sub?
 
Bob Noel said:
How much will it cost to do that?

Do we mothball the sub?

What's the output of the reactor?

Who operates the reactor?

Do we declassify the sub so that anyone can operate it?

Do we de-mil the sub?
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The subs are already mothballed, however they still are crewed. I think the Navy could be left to operate the machinery. Figure the refit on the subs wouldn't be more than $100MM. Outside of the missile disposal I think I could come in under $60MM with some good crew and leadership. There is some skill left in this country. It's nothing more than burning and welding steel. The reactors themselves aren't really all that secret and they can take the ultra quiet pumps off and give us noisy ones. Don't need the classified props either.

I think a National H2 utility owns it and we can start it using US Naval personel previously vetted and served onboard these same boats in their former occupation, we as a nation have a lot of people working at fast food who have worked on a nuclear submarine. Now you have some fuel for the car manufacturers wet dream to come true, a zero emissions car. They have Leno driving one, there's a small program in LA. Heck, I have cab medallions committed in NYC. The industry is waiting to bust out they just haven't figured out not to dump the water out the exhaust pipe but to collect it for resale/return/reuse. We've got more drought coming, and more people. 9 billion in 20 years. This is Common Defence and General Welfare. With corn screwed this year as a feed, why are we putting it in gas?

Ohio class is 45 MW advertised; here is a bit of reading: http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy06osti/40605.pdf
 
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Henning said:
How does natural gas produce potable water and electricity at the same time? If you think oil is valuable, water is even more so, and we're in trouble with it. We can be prepared for the future or not.
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Several ways possible. Burning natural gas seems to be the preferred method. Add a waste heat water maker and ya got the potable water side covered. Plenty of waste heat with any power plant. Maybe the plant should be near an ocean for a plentiful feed water supply.
 
Henning said:
Lease out the hardware to make hydrogen? It can pay for new equipment it needs with the old equipment it has, the water generated has a collection and resale value and that profit goes into treasury for funding government on the value of water.
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Wouldn't the process of making hydrogen consume water rather than produce it? It seems to me that the user of the hydrogen would be the one producing the water. If the navy made hydrogen, and converted it back into water, they would merely be converting one form of energy (turning shaft) into another (heat produced by burning hydrogen)
 
Steve Foley said:
Wouldn't the process of making hydrogen consume water rather than produce it? It seems to me that the user of the hydrogen would be the one producing the water. If the navy made hydrogen, and converted it back into water, they would merely be converting one form of energy (turning shaft) into another (heat produced by burning hydrogen)
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Why apply logic to this thread?

If someone believes in a pseudo perpetual motion machine, ie, converting water to hydrogen in a decommissioned submarine or whatever and then recovering the same amount of water via recouping car exhaust to solve a drought problem, let them believe there are no losses in any processes. Or maybe the laws of thermo have been repealed in this digital age.

Still things unfortunately have to make economic sense unless one can wrangle a deal like Solyndra for the submarine to hydrogen powered cars idea. Populating the world or the USA or with the infrastructure for H2 based on the output of a fleet of decommissioned nuclear submarines seems a little challenging even for the US Govt. Maybe somebody can convince the DOE to do it for NYC or DC but since natural gas is still cheaper by a long shot, it should be filed in the round file but who knows?

OTOH, the world needs dreamers.

Cheers
 
X3 Skier said:
If someone believes in a pseudo perpetual motion machine, ie, converting water to hydrogen in a decommissioned submarine or whatever and then recovering the same amount of water via recouping car exhaust to solve a drought problem, let them believe there are no losses in any processes. Or maybe the laws of thermo have been repealed in this digital age.
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From what I understand, Helios stored electricity by using solar powered electrolysis during the day to store hydrogen, and a hydrogen fuel cell at night to power the electric motors, so it's not completely crazy.

Also, I don't believe Henning is talking about using electrolysis, but some steam reformation.

I also knew a guy (Raleigh Myers) who was hell bent on making concrete parabolic reflectors to fuel the "Hydrogen Economy". I never could make heads nor tails of his writing, but I was impressed by his passion.
 
Steve Foley said:
Wouldn't the process of making hydrogen consume water rather than produce it? It seems to me that the user of the hydrogen would be the one producing the water. If the navy made hydrogen, and converted it back into water, they would merely be converting one form of energy (turning shaft) into another (heat produced by burning hydrogen)
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Consume salt and contaminated water and recombine pure at a much lower cost than current methods.
 
Henning said:
Now you have some fuel for the car manufacturers wet dream to come true, a zero emissions car. They have Leno driving one, there's a small program in LA.
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A small concern. While General Motors has made huge strides in reducing the cost of a hydrogen fuel cell and it is quite commendable, their latest gen that is in the Equinox test fleet is still estimated to cost at least $100,000 per cell. This does not include the rest of the car. At these prices, maybe Jay Leno will have one, but don't expect the rest of the world to beat a path to the Chevy dealer.

Then you have the problem of distribution...
 
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