Why are India's air force planes falling out of the sky?

[35 AoA]

Although almost 30 years ago I worked with Saudi Pilots going through Army Rotor wing training...all I can say is they just called "Allah's Will" on everything from preflight to weather to condition of the aircraft. Flying skills were marginal at best and made little attempt to understand the process...we just shuffled them along until graduation...they did not seem to care that they got the easy track or that their lack of competency would probably get them killed one day....

While I believe this given everything I have seen, apples to oranges when talking Indians........of note, there aren't many if them who pray to Allah......and while not my point, I think that those who do consistently are incompetent at everyday life

 

[Velocity173]

Although almost 30 years ago I worked with Saudi Pilots going through Army Rotor wing training...all I can say is they just called "Allah's Will" on everything from preflight to weather to condition of the aircraft. Flying skills were marginal at best and made little attempt to understand the process...we just shuffled them along until graduation...they did not seem to care that they got the easy track or that their lack of competency would probably get them killed one day....

Lol! I see nothing has changed in 30 yrs. My "Stick Buddy" in Hawks was Saudi. He had a total lack of interest in being there. One night he fell asleep up front. My IP chewed him out but it's not like it made a difference.

Years later when I instructed there, I flew Saudis a couple of times. Hilarious. Had one guy doing low level NAV at night who was completely lost. I asked him a few times if he knew where we were and he kept saying "No, but it is OK." After he was about 10 mins past his planned ETA and I wasn't even sure we were still in Alabama, I decided to take over.

Saudis are strange. You'll see the vast majority that don't have an intense, driven bone in their bodies and then you have the few that run the show over there that know their stuff. I was told that's the difference between somone that comes from royalty and somone who doesn't. Not sure, but I could see a marked difference in students.

Now the Norwegians? Man they're good. Always liked getting assigned one of them.

 

[TheTraveler]

I deal with India quite frequently. Some of their largest companies, military, and public services. I can say that they are, by far, the most difficult to deal with in my experience.

I have never seen such a love for bureaucracy, endless paperwork, triple and quadruple checks and balances. Although there is the perception of protection and accuracy, in the end, it cancels out everything safety related when mission critical systems fail miserably because the authority to make a decision cannot be done without involving a chain of others who do not agree, and/or are not willing to sign their names.

Dealing in this atmosphere in India makes doing business in Russia, China, Brazil, and Saudi Arabia look like working off a deal made on a handshake.

One purchase order including seven line items: 500 pages, all of which must be signed, initialed, and stamped. Every...single...page. Go ahead, try and get something done!

Let's see what happens with their aircraft carriers (leftovers from the USSR which have sat and rusted since the 90's, and were only partially completed) once they all get underway for a while. I'm skeptical about them lasting for any period of time.

 

[N801BH]

]I deal with India quite frequently. Some of their largest companies, military, and public services. I can say that they are, by far, the most difficult to deal with in my experience. [/B]

.............

I dealt with them when I had Direct TV and their call center was over there..... I now hate both......

 

[NoHeat]

India?

Great people.

Not-so-great system.

But better than in the neighboring countries.

 

[TheTraveler]

India?

Great people.

Not-so-great system.

But better than in the neighboring countries.

I agree absolutely with that statement. I've never had anything but good experiences with the people. The system? Forget about it.

Even if a guy genuinely wants to get something done...good luck, it ain't gonna happen.

 

[MikeELP]

I deal with India quite frequently. Some of their largest companies, military, and public services. I can say that they are, by far, the most difficult to deal with in my experience.

I have never seen such a love for bureaucracy, endless paperwork, triple and quadruple checks and balances..

A legacy of their time as part of the British Empire, no doubt.

Mike

 

[kyleb]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-29639897

"Two years ago, India's then defence minister told an astonished parliament that more than half the 872 MiGs it had purchased from Russia had been lost in accidents, at a cost of over 200 lives."

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in the thread is that the Indians have been flying Russian equipment since the '60's, at least. You can crash a lot of fighters in 50+ years, particularly if you're flying unforgiving equipment.

 

[LDJones]

A friend is currently parting out a Mig-21 that had a landing overrun at KFCM. Talk about a lead-sled. Can't imagine how they'd go about maintaining a fleet of them without being fluent in Russian.

 

[Henning]

A friend is currently parting out a Mig-21 that had a landing overrun at KFCM. Talk about a lead-sled. Can't imagine how they'd go about maintaining a fleet of them without being fluent in Russian.

By being fluent in Russian, my Indian chef was proficient in 7 languages including Russian.

 

[Banjo33]

It's been a tough transition from flying carpets to aircraft.

 

[Herman vanOoijen]

I can attest to the Travellers's travails. Dealing with Indian Companies and their employees is pure horror. Nice people with horrible business practices!

I deal with India quite frequently. Some of their largest companies, military, and public services. I can say that they are, by far, the most difficult to deal with in my experience.

I have never seen such a love for bureaucracy, endless paperwork, triple and quadruple checks and balances. Although there is the perception of protection and accuracy, in the end, it cancels out everything safety related when mission critical systems fail miserably because the authority to make a decision cannot be done without involving a chain of others who do not agree, and/or are not willing to sign their names.

Dealing in this atmosphere in India makes doing business in Russia, China, Brazil, and Saudi Arabia look like working off a deal made on a handshake.

One purchase order including seven line items: 500 pages, all of which must be signed, initialed, and stamped. Every...single...page. Go ahead, try and get something done!

Let's see what happens with their aircraft carriers (leftovers from the USSR which have sat and rusted since the 90's, and were only partially completed) once they all get underway for a while. I'm skeptical about them lasting for any period of time.

 

[Henning]

I can attest to the Travellers's travails. Dealing with Indian Companies and their employees is pure horror. Nice people with horrible business practices!

What would you expect from a British Empire country? They learned bureaucracy from the Brits and the East India company.

 

[TheTraveler]

What would you expect from a British Empire country? They learned bureaucracy from the Brits and the East India company.

Yes, AND, they openly admit to that. So it's certainly no secret.

Just hard to understand how the Brits and the Empire moved on, but India just kind of...well...stayed there.

For only being (+/-) 100 million behind China in population, it sure doesn't show. Not saying China has everything together, but things in China have really begun to move. Fast. And faster every day.

India? Yeah, um...not so much. Visited a factory not long ago, I was told in advance of their superior quality and attention to detail. I showed up and witnessed four guys in robes, no shoes, actually HAMMERING out a piece of steel into what resembled a stamped part. Is it possible to be more than speechless?

 

[Henning]

Yes, AND, they openly admit to that. So it's certainly no secret.

Just hard to understand how the Brits and the Empire moved on, but India just kind of...well...stayed there.

For only being (+/-) 100 million behind China in population, it sure doesn't show. Not saying China has everything together, but things in China have really begun to move. Fast. And faster every day.

India? Yeah, um...not so much. Visited a factory not long ago, I was told in advance of their superior quality and attention to detail. I showed up and witnessed four guys in robes, no shoes, actually HAMMERING out a piece of steel into what resembled a stamped part. Is it possible to be more than speechless?

Because of population and what they find important. China has embraced Consumerism, India, not so much, plus India still isn't free of the Caste system. While the Brahmans are more 'successful' by Western standards than ever, this effect goes down with caste standing. The vast majority of Indians are not able to participate in mass consumerism because of their own cultural paradigms. The thing about Communism in China, it eliminated 'Class', so like America, they are all of the mind that they too can become fabulously wealthy.