Who was Right

corjulo

corjulo

Line Up and Wait
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Corjulo
For those who fly into Hartford's Brainard Field (KHFD) on a regular basis their is a running joke about one of the controllers. Basically I have never met a pilot who has not had run in with this controller or at least monitor another pilot getting chewed out over something. Bring her up and one can usually expect some a negative response.

Its gotten so bad that I know pilots that will not refuel there if they hear her voice on ATIS.

Anyway, I was on sort final behind a Mooney this past weekend when I thought I heard the tower tell the Mooney "Taxi on Charlie, monitor ground point 6". I landed and got the same instruction. But when I switched to ground I had to listen to close the 3 minutes (I timed it) of my favorite controller lecturing the Mooney for taxing without permission. He was insisting, very nicely, that he thought "monitor" meant he had permission.
He apologized a couple of time but she just kept after him. I set there burning up fuel and running up hobb time while she took minutes doing what should have taken seconds.

Anyway, was the Mooney Pilot correct? Did he have permission to taxi. He and I where the only two planes on the ground or in the pattern at that time. Obviously I didn't move an inch until she acknowledged I had permission
 
I dunno if "Taxi on Charlie" means he's got to stop at the end of Charlie, but in any event, if we had a controller displaying that kind of unprofessional behavior, I'd be setting up a tape recorder to record some select "excerpts" for presentation to her bosses.
 
Hmmmm...

That clearance would confuse me with no further context. Usually they tell you *where* to taxi, and any special hold-short instructions.

Sometimes, if they know you, they might say 'Taxi to parking' (sometimes they will say that if they don't know you, but don't care where you taxi.)

But just 'Taxi on Charlie..." to *where?* would be my question.

I don't think 'monitor ground .6' gives any kind of clearance to move. The 'taxi on Charlie' *might* but again, I'm confused. If the exchange before went:

Tower: 32AB, say parking
32AB: Mercury
...Tower...Taxi on Charlie, monitor ground .6

THEN, I would start moving, and tell her to mark the tapes, and call FSDO if she read me the riot act.

But all by itself...Taxi on Charlie...would be met with: Tower, Confirm 32AB is cleared to taxi to Mercury via Charlie...
 
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RobertGerace said:
But just 'Taxi on Charlie..." to *where?* would be my question.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't interpret this as a clearance to taxi. I would interpret this more as an exit runway instruction (charlie on left, bravo on right or whatever). It's not clear, however, so I can see the confusion.

I'm a big fan of reading back what I hear. I've been told it's too verbose, too much time, etc., but I've never rec'd an instruction with two people (controller and me) thinking it didn't mean the same thing. When in doubt, ask.
 
I think it was "Monitor ground", instead on "contact ground" that they where arguing about. I was surprised they even had someone on ground Saturday afternoon. Usually on weekends ground and tower are one in the same, at least in the winter..

Still. I hate the idea of filing a complaint. At this point its like you're not one of the guys (or gals) until she has bitched at you. Sort of KHFD's right of passage.
 
Bob, Dan

"monitor Ground point (whatever)" is common at a lot of airports.

The correct instruction will be "taxi to (wherever) (ramp) (parking) via charlie, monitor ground point (whatever)".

In this case, the tower instruction wasn't completely clear vis common practice at other airports. However, a literal reading of the AIM would tell you that the instruction was to clear the runway via Charlie, and listen for other instructions on Ground.

Thus, predicated on the AIM, I'd say the Ground controller was correct, regardless of her means of imparting that knowledge.
-----------------------------------------------------

4-3-20. Exiting the Runway After Landing

The following procedures should be followed after landing and reaching taxi speed.

a. Exit the runway without delay at the first available taxiway or on a taxiway as instructed by ATC. Pilots shall not exit the landing runway onto another runway unless authorized by ATC. At airports with an operating control tower, pilots should not stop or reverse course on the runway without first obtaining ATC approval.

b. Taxi clear of the runway unless otherwise directed by ATC. In the absence of ATC instructions the pilot is expected to taxi clear of the landing runway by clearing the hold position marking associated with the landing runway even if that requires the aircraft to protrude into or cross another taxiway or ramp area. This does not authorize an aircraft to cross a subsequent taxiway/runway/ramp after clearing the landing runway.

NOTE-
1. The tower will issue the pilot instructions which will normally permit the aircraft to enter another taxiway, runway, or ramp area when required to taxi clear of the runway by clearing the hold position marking associated with the landing runway.

2. Guidance contained in subparagraphs a and b above is considered an integral part of the landing clearance and satisfies the requirement of 14 CFR Section 91.129.

c. Stop the aircraft after clearing the runway if instructions have not been received from ATC.

d. Immediately change to ground control frequency when advised by the tower and obtain a taxi clearance.

NOTE-
1. The tower will issue instructions required to resolve any potential conflictions with other ground traffic prior to advising the pilot to contact ground control.

2. A clearance from ATC to taxi to the ramp authorizes the aircraft to cross all runways and taxiway intersections. Pilots not familiar with the taxi route should request specific taxi instructions from ATC.
 
Dan,

Upon looking at the airport diagram, are you sure the instruction was not "left/right turn at Charlie, contact ground point six"?

I think the instruction as given meets the criteria of an instruction to clear the runway, not taxi fully to park.
 
Looking at the airport diagram for HFD, the only way I can see that the pilot could have taxied without further clearance would be if they only taxied on Charlie straight off the active portion of the field. If they were to taxi on any other taxiway, the "clearance" to taxi on Charlie and just monitor (as opposed to contact) ground would need to be reissued. If this is what the controller intended, they should have said "taxi to parking via Charlie, monitor ground point six".

Jeff
 
Yes
The Mooney exited Charley and went straight to the T- Hanger. I was hanging a right on Delta. But I stopped and waited..and waited and waited. I was more angry about how much time she waisted arguing with the Mooney even though he kept apologizing
 
Right, wrong: its (almost) "who cares" by that point (the people and planes are safe by now). What happened to the work-together attitude? Is there an FAA behavior scheme that applies to controllers, to this controller?
Childish, shameful behavior.
edit: 99% of atc is WONDERFUL; and I have seen disrespectful behavior of pilots too.
 
We had a former Navy female controller at McKinney (TKI) for awhile. She'd just bark out orders like we were all nasal aviators or somethin. She wasn't here long. Last I heard she go transferred to South Texas somewhere (somewhere I hopefully won't have to ever go!!).

Have a great lady here at Addison. Velvety smooth voice that brings all the guys to attention and on best behavior. She brought me in one day as a B-17 flew directly overhead. Wondered if I was in heaven until I got the fuel bill :)

There's never an excuse for chewing someone out on the air; especially when it affects other traffic. If she wants to berate this pilot, have him call tower.

Best,

Dave
A-36TN ADS
 
On a busier day (to disguise the caller), the old joke might be very appropriate. After an extended verbal dressing down, an anonymous radio call "Wasn't I married to you once?" might lighten things up...then again, probably "light things up" would be more correct!
 
This sounds like an "instruction" I was given in the late 80's when I was on an IFR arrival into KOWD, Norwood, Mass. It went like this.

Pilot "Norwood Tower, This is N8277W on a visual for runway 35, 6 miles southwest"

Tower "Roger 77W Taxi into Position and Hold"

Pilot "Roger, Will do after the landing"

Tower; " Oh Oh your are landing;;; Stand By::: No, Yes Your are cleared visual 35"

Pilot; "Are you sure"

Tower; "N8277W is cleared to land on 35"

Pilot; "N8277W is cleared to land 35" Thank you and we are 3 miles on a wide left base"

Yes it did really happen and I am so glad of repeating back "all instructions"


John
 
Right or wrong, it wasn't very professional. If I tell someone to "monitor" a frequency, I don't expect them to call. At any rate FAA facilities are required to save tapes of all frequencies for 15 or 45 days depending on the type of facility. I would like to think that contract towers have the same requirements. Contract controllers are certified by FAA supervisors/managers from nearby fields. I would think a phone call to either the tower in question, or the one responsible for their certification should get the question answered as to if and why any of this should have happened. If you don't want to get directly involved you could call one of the FAA's Hotline phone numbers available on the web. Give the date, time and position of operation, Ground control in this case.

Apologies from the majority of controllers that DON'T think this is the way to treat pilots.
 
mdreger said:
If I tell someone to "monitor" a frequency, I don't expect them to call.
Click to expand...

Occasionally, I've heard a controller say "monitor ground, no call required" or simply "monitor ground," both with an instruction to taxi to the ramp, for example. I take this to mean that no call-up is required in either case and you are authorized to taxi to the ramp.
 
John J said:
Tower "Roger 77W Taxi into Position and Hold"

Pilot "Roger, Will do after the landing"
Click to expand...

I got one of those at BED a couple weeks ago... I called in 10 miles out with Lima, and tower told me to "hold short". Fortunately she caught it right away and sounded a little embarrassed. :)

--Kath
 
(I got one of those at BED a couple weeks ago... I called in 10 miles out with Lima, and tower told me to "hold short". Fortunately she caught it right away and sounded a little embarrassed. :)

--Kath[/QUOTE]

I wonder if it is the same one for some of my flying freinds mentioned that there is a "Contoller who is hard to get a long with" at BED

John
 
This is the kind of controller who is always conveniently on leave when we come in for an evaluation. Note the times, call signs, and circumstances and file a pilot complaint...you owe it to all the folks up there doing it right.
 
corjulo said:
Anyway, was the Mooney Pilot correct? Did he have permission to taxi. He and I where the only two planes on the ground or in the pattern at that time. Obviously I didn't move an inch until she acknowledged I had permission
Click to expand...

If you heard correctly, I'd say her instructions were confusingly vague at best. It's quite common to hear "taxi to xxx, monitor ground" from the tower, and in that case no one expects you to call on ground unless you have a question or want to change your taxi destination.

"Taxi on Charlie" doesn't sound like any proper taxi clearance I've ever heard. It it was "Exit on Charlie, monitor ground", I'd probably ask ground if I was cleared to taxi to my hangar because they obviously had no way of knowing where I was actually headed on the ground.

BTW I think the proper phraseology would be "taxi via Charlie" vs "on Charlie" even if a destination were included in the instructions.

If I were the Mooney pilot or you, I'd have a polite little chat with the tower sup. about the incident. You both might learn something useful.
 
corjulo said:
Yes
The Mooney exited Charley and went straight to the T- Hanger. I was hanging a right on Delta. But I stopped and waited..and waited and waited. I was more angry about how much time she waisted arguing with the Mooney even though he kept apologizing
Click to expand...

With that long a useless wait, I probably would have gone back to Local (tower) and asked them for a taxi clearance after telling them the ground freq. was "busy" (assuming the tower freq wasn't busy).
 
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