Who knows something about floor tile?

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

Final Approach
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Jaybird180
We recently got a new tile floor put in the kitchen. The job went well and we’re happy with the result; it’s been a couple months now. There is one issue that is unresolved related to the tile material used.

Long Story Short:
After much shopping and deliberation, we chose the type and size tile- 18” Porcelain, I forget the pattern name.
Home Depot was our original retailer for the purchase but they only stocked it online for the size/ pattern we wanted. Just before ordering, I found a better price from a fairly well-known website and pulled the trigger. The stock numbers matched, but arrived in packaging that was unexpected. While I ordered DALTILE brand, made in USA, I received COEM brand tile, made in Italy. The stock numbers were the same, so I thought no biggie that it could possibly be some distributor change or whatever that resulted in the packaging.

The installer said it looks like Porcelain, but it cuts like Ceramic (easier) - needless to say he had his doubts that I got the right product. He did note that it appeared to be high-quality material and said that from what he’s experienced, if you choose ceramic, Italian ceramic is the best but he has very little experience with Italian porcelain to advise me for certain.

I really don’t know what I have on my floor, but I know I emotionally accepted the idea of paying more for the porcelain over the ceramic (several hundred dollars in materials cost). Should I pursue this issue with the website I bought it from? They were made aware of the error upon shipping, but due to deadlines, uncertainty, etc. I gave the installer the “go ahead” to install the tile, regardless of material. The website offered me a $75 credit, which I refused. Since then, the customer service person that I was working with at the website stopped communicating and I got busy with life. Now that I have some mental bandwidth due to slow-down at work, I’m making a list of personal “To Do” items.

I have to decide if this is worthwhile to pursue or just drop it off my To-Do list, which is pretty extensive. In all likelihood I won’t drop it, as these things tend to bug me later. What are the chances I got the better end of this deal and for that reason I should shut up about it?
 
If this is a drop in the bucket on your todo list and you like the floor, move on.
 
You got a cheaper product, because you paid less. The discount has already been taken on the lower price. Too bad now.
 
The Italian ceramic is usually pretty good stuff. There are a few "it depends" on whether to make an issue of it. What is the difference in price? For me, my time is worth something and my mental health is worth quite a bit. If you are taking about 75 bucks, I would make a couple of phone calls, but not much beyond that. Bottom line, if you like your floor, let it go.
 
“The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” – Benjamin Franklin
 
Once you installed it, you accepted it. In short while you'll forget the whole thing completely. I doubt it's worth the effort to complain at this point.
 
Never trusts the idiots at the home center to know anything about anything.

Dal-Tile makes some tile, but they're just distributors for others. If it was supposed to come from Italy, they don't make it as their maufacturing plants are all in either the US or Mexico. Ceramiche Coem is one of the manufacturers they distribute.

Understand that porcelain tiles *ARE* ceramic tiles. Even within the porcelain tiles, there are some that are porcelain throughout and some are porcelain surfaced over a non-porcelain base. I suspect based on your installers comments that's what you have. It will go through his saw easier. Unless you have some exposed edges or you have wear way beyond any semblence of sanity, you're not going to notice the difference between full body porcelain and not.

I'd go ahead. Other that moronic customer service from your retailer, there appears to be nothing wrong here.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Do not drop the bucket on the tile floor, it will break.
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Either the bucket or the floor. I hated the ceramic tile in my old kitchen (put in apparently by the seller right before I bought the house, I could have saved him the trouble had I known). I have replaced it with industrial rubber and did so again in my current kitchen.
 
I hate to put it this way, but you lost my sympathy when you said you found what you liked at Home Depot, but bought it on line to save a few bucks. But I'm funny that way. Maybe because I own a business and have to compete with clients that get educated at my place and then buy products I sell on-line. Even if there is no cost difference, or if I cost less. And for some reason, that happens a lot.
 
JOhnH said:
I hate to put it this way, but you lost my sympathy when you said you found what you liked at Home Depot, but bought it on line to save a few bucks. But I'm funny that way. Maybe because I own a business and have to compete with clients that get educated at my place and then buy products I sell on-line. Even if there is no cost difference, or if I cost less. And for some reason, that happens a lot.
Click to expand...

Understand John, but we didn't start at HD. It was a long process, and it turned out they were the only ones selling the pattern at that size in porcelain....then I found the other site and cut the bill by several hundred dollars.
 
flyingron said:
Never trusts the idiots at the home center to know anything about anything.

Dal-Tile makes some tile, but they're just distributors for others. If it was supposed to come from Italy, they don't make it as their maufacturing plants are all in either the US or Mexico. Ceramiche Coem is one of the manufacturers they distribute.

Understand that porcelain tiles *ARE* ceramic tiles. Even within the porcelain tiles, there are some that are porcelain throughout and some are porcelain surfaced over a non-porcelain base. I suspect based on your installers comments that's what you have. It will go through his saw easier. Unless you have some exposed edges or you have wear way beyond any semblence of sanity, you're not going to notice the difference between full body porcelain and not.

I'd go ahead. Other that moronic customer service from your retailer, there appears to be nothing wrong here.
Click to expand...

That's new knowledge for me. I thought there was a materials difference in that porcelain was fired differently, but did not know there was mix. I know they both start from clay.
 
Jaybird180 said:
The job went well and we’re happy with the result;
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You should have stopped there, because I'm with most of the folks here in that I don't see a problem.

I have done quite a bit of tiling and I really don't notice much of a difference between ceramic and porcelain. I don't know of anyone who could tell the difference by looking while walking on it.
 
I've done a lot of tile. As in me, myself, putting down the Hardiebacker, laying out, cutting, mortaring and grouting the stuff.

Buy your tile from a real tile company, not a Home Depot, and not on line. That is all.
 
Gerhardt said:
You should have stopped there, because I'm with most of the folks here in that I don't see a problem.

I have done quite a bit of tiling and I really don't notice much of a difference between ceramic and porcelain. I don't know of anyone who could tell the difference by looking while walking on it.
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I think if ceramic chips, you can see the clay beneath. If porcelain chips, it gets a little character.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I think if ceramic chips, you can see the clay beneath. If porcelain chips, it gets a little character.
Click to expand...

I'd never heard that. Shoot, now you're going to make me look this up just to see if you should have inserted a wink after your post.
 
No, I have had both and chipped both.
Chipped ceramic reveals a terracotta like surface beneath.
 
Chip in ceramic reveals the surface beneath.

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Jaybird180 said:
We recently got a new tile floor put in the kitchen. The job went well and we’re happy with the result; it’s been a couple months now. There is one issue that is unresolved related to the tile material used.

Long Story Short:
After much shopping and deliberation, we chose the type and size tile- 18” Porcelain, I forget the pattern name.
Home Depot was our original retailer for the purchase but they only stocked it online for the size/ pattern we wanted. Just before ordering, I found a better price from a fairly well-known website and pulled the trigger. The stock numbers matched, but arrived in packaging that was unexpected. While I ordered DALTILE brand, made in USA, I received COEM brand tile, made in Italy. The stock numbers were the same, so I thought no biggie that it could possibly be some distributor change or whatever that resulted in the packaging.

The installer said it looks like Porcelain, but it cuts like Ceramic (easier) - needless to say he had his doubts that I got the right product. He did note that it appeared to be high-quality material and said that from what he’s experienced, if you choose ceramic, Italian ceramic is the best but he has very little experience with Italian porcelain to advise me for certain.

I really don’t know what I have on my floor, but I know I emotionally accepted the idea of paying more for the porcelain over the ceramic (several hundred dollars in materials cost). Should I pursue this issue with the website I bought it from? They were made aware of the error upon shipping, but due to deadlines, uncertainty, etc. I gave the installer the “go ahead” to install the tile, regardless of material. The website offered me a $75 credit, which I refused. Since then, the customer service person that I was working with at the website stopped communicating and I got busy with life. Now that I have some mental bandwidth due to slow-down at work, I’m making a list of personal “To Do” items.

I have to decide if this is worthwhile to pursue or just drop it off my To-Do list, which is pretty extensive. In all likelihood I won’t drop it, as these things tend to bug me later. What are the chances I got the better end of this deal and for that reason I should shut up about it?
Click to expand...

You should not use porcelain on a floor, and rarely on a counter-top. Porcelain is a pure white clay that is used to make fine china, not floors or counter-tops. One way to tell what you have is the color of the middle of a broken tile. Is it brown or tan, then its ceramic. If its pure white, it might be porcelain. If so, you are toast. That tile will not hold up under foot traffic.
 
CTLSi said:
You should not use porcelain on a floor, and rarely on a counter-top. Porcelain is a pure white clay that is used to make fine china, not floors or counter-tops. One way to tell what you have is the color of the middle of a broken tile. Is it brown or tan, then its ceramic. If its pure white, it might be porcelain. If so, you are toast. That tile will not hold up under foot traffic.
Click to expand...

I heard that argument about it being more delicate. Decided to take the risk in favor of better chip characteristics, which is a higher likelihood than a clean break, on a properly level and stiff floor.

Nevertheless, I'll find out what was installed and report back.
 
This morning I placed a tile on my concrete floor and gave it a good whack with the hammer, shattering it. I only intended to chip it. So I whacked a broken piece using less force with the same shattering result as shown in image 1.

What may not be noticed in image 2 is that there appears to be a top layer of design (it's textured) and a mid-layer of different density than the core layer.

I'm not sure, but as I understand porcelain shatters easier than ceramic. If I wanted someone to look at a sample, who could say definitively what this is?
 

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I believe you have expended exactly as much effort and worry about this as ever you should. Nice floor, well-installed? Go have a beer.
 
Jaybird180 said:
This morning I placed a tile on my concrete floor and gave it a good whack with the hammer, shattering it. I only intended to chip it. So I whacked a broken piece using less force with the same shattering result as shown in image 1.

What may not be noticed in image 2 is that there appears to be a top layer of design (it's textured) and a mid-layer of different density than the core layer.

I'm not sure, but as I understand porcelain shatters easier than ceramic. If I wanted someone to look at a sample, who could say definitively what this is?
Click to expand...

It looks like red clay. Ceramic.
 
CTLSi said:
You should not use porcelain on a floor, and rarely on a counter-top. Porcelain is a pure white clay that is used to make fine china, not floors or counter-tops. One way to tell what you have is the color of the middle of a broken tile. Is it brown or tan, then its ceramic. If its pure white, it might be porcelain. If so, you are toast. That tile will not hold up under foot traffic.
Click to expand...

BUNK. Porcelain is an excellent flooring material and is used in many commercial flooring applications where it is far superior than ordinary ceramic.
Your characterization of the materials used to make porcelain is also nonsense. Porcelain is a denser (and while naturally white, most has been colored to some extent before firing). It has considerable strength and impermeability even when unglazed. To characterize it as something only suitable for making teacups is bogus.

Your broken tile test proves nothing. If the surface is a DIFFERENT color than the substrate it's either ceramic or non-fuil body porcelain. If it's all the same color it's most likely full body porcelain. If I bought your assumption, all porcelain tiles would be the off-white kaolin native color, but in fact it can be had in any color.
 
CTLSi said:
You should not use porcelain on a floor, and rarely on a counter-top. Porcelain is a pure white clay that is used to make fine china, not floors or counter-tops. One way to tell what you have is the color of the middle of a broken tile. Is it brown or tan, then its ceramic. If its pure white, it might be porcelain. If so, you are toast. That tile will not hold up under foot traffic.
Click to expand...

My porcelain toilet and basin don't agree with you.
 
To the OP: "Installation constitutes acceptance."

I don't know about CTLSi, he has some funny ideas about aerodynamics and now he has funny ideas about tile. No one is 'toast' for having this type of tile installed in a residential kitchen. This floor tile is ceramic but is not like a ceramic wall tile. The body is made of fine clay plus minerals and binders.

In a past life I was a building contractor. About 80% of my work was res. remodels, the rest being custom homes and TI and Public Works. I stopped counting after 100,000 s.f. of tile installed. I figure I ended my career at about 300,000 s.f. tile installed in high end residences. I also was a member of the TCA and taught some seminars for Custom's and American Olean.
 
Since the tile is already installed there is little to no chance for recourse. Enjoy the new floor and move on with life.
 
pilot_dude said:
Since the tile is already installed there is little to no chance for recourse. Enjoy the new floor and move on with life.
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I figure the internet review I owe them is still open. I ordered and paid for one thing and got something different. I would think it would be reasonable for them to refund the difference.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I figure the internet review I owe them is still open. I ordered and paid for one thing and got something different. I would think it would be reasonable for them to refund the difference.
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I'll concede you didn't receive what was ordered. However, once they are laid, you own them. It is the purchasers responsibility to confirm the order was fulfilled properly.
Think about purchasing a pair of jeans on line. You receive them, wash them and then find out they don't fit like your other pairs of 32/30. Once washed (laid), you own them.
 
pilot_dude said:
I'll concede you didn't receive what was ordered. However, once they are laid, you own them. It is the purchasers responsibility to confirm the order was fulfilled properly.
Think about purchasing a pair of jeans on line. You receive them, wash them and then find out they don't fit like your other pairs of 32/30. Once washed (laid), you own them.
Click to expand...

I agree that if they balk, I won't make a huge stink about it. But also add that the stock numbers matched and so did the patterns and size. I had no reason to expect it to not be what I ordered except the box. As a layman, how would you expect me to know the difference between porcelain and ceramic by looking at it?
 
pilot_dude said:
I'll concede you didn't receive what was ordered. However, once they are laid, you own them. It is the purchasers responsibility to confirm the order was fulfilled properly.
Think about purchasing a pair of jeans on line. You receive them, wash them and then find out they don't fit like your other pairs of 32/30. Once washed (laid), you own them.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I'm going to concede that. As I stated, Dal-Tile redistributes tiles from a number of sources an Ceramiche Coen is one of them.
 
Google translate can't help. The box says "Gres Porcellanato". It can't translate the porcellenato and something I read said it refers to any manmade stonery (pottery).

Anyone speak Italian?
 
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