Who DOESN'T practice stalls post PPL?

[Hank S]

I learned how the base to final stall/spin entry works. I was shocked at how suddenly and without warning I was on my back and in a spin. I simulated an overshoot and compensated with extra left rudder ( left turn ) and high sided my stick to limit bank.

The exercise was a great demonstration of how a left skidding turn with crossed controls can lead to an inadvertent spin and one of the fixes are to use more bank and remain coordinated. The other fix would be to not fix the overshoot and remain coordinated.

Near the ground I want to be either coordinated or slipping not skidding.

When I overshoot final, I just maintain my bank angle, turn rate and controls, and try to fly back to the runway. If I'm somehow really wide, then it's a go around. My primary CFI beat this into my head . . .

Slips in the pattern are reserved for straight flying, rarely to lose altitude, more often for crosswind correction on final.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

When I overshoot final, I just maintain my bank angle, turn rate and controls, and try to fly back to the runway. If I'm somehow really wide, then it's a go around. My primary CFI beat this into my head . . .

Slips in the pattern are reserved for straight flying, rarely to lose altitude, more often for crosswind correction on final.

Just the opposite for me. I never slip except on final, usually for fun but sometimes to lose altitude quickly, ie: Stearman, champ, etc. it works well. In a cross wind , I have the wing into the wind low and if necessary, touch on one wheel first.

 

[Henning]

Just the opposite for me. I never slip except on final, usually for fun but sometimes to lose altitude quickly, ie: Stearman, champ, etc. it works well. In a cross wind , I have the wing into the wind low and if necessary, touch on one wheel first.

Yep, that's a slip...

 

[Timmer]

I learned how the base to final stall/spin entry works. I was shocked at how suddenly and without warning I was on my back and in a spin. I simulated an overshoot and compensated with extra left rudder ( left turn ) and high sided my stick to limit bank.

This is true -- what I'm interested in is why people would even think that using the rudder to push the turn would work. Obviously it happens, I just wonder when since from day one a turn is taught with ailerons and then rudders to keep the plane coordinated.

I watched a video explaining skids and one idea is that the rudder does move the nose so if you push the rudder to skid into a turn the nose of the plane will point inward to where the pilot wants to go, giving the illusion that he tightened the turn. Of course, he didn't, and made the turn less efficient, the inner wing into a swept wing which will stall near the tips instead of the base, but visually it looks good.

The other idea was from an Air Safety Institute video which mentioned that CFIs warn of steep banks in the pattern so students get nervous with anything close to 30-degrees or more and so when they panic they keep the ailerons at 20-degrees and mash rudder. The video went on to recommend 30-degree banks in pattern all the time as a timidness of banking seems to cause a lot of those wide turns which cause pilots to panic and over-tighten.

It's interesting looking back at my training. When I was pre-solo my CFI wanted pretty shallow banks, but by the end of the training he was showing steep turns as a way to lose altitude. Coordination coordination coordination.

 

[Henning]

This is true -- what I'm interested in is why people would even think that using the rudder to push the turn would work. Obviously it happens, I just wonder when since from day one a turn is taught with ailerons and then rudders to keep the plane coordinated.

I watched a video explaining skids and one idea is that the rudder does move the nose so if you push the rudder to skid into a turn the nose of the plane will point inward to where the pilot wants to go, giving the illusion that he tightened the turn. Of course, he didn't, and made the turn less efficient, the inner wing into a swept wing which will stall near the tips instead of the base, but visually it looks good.

The other idea was from an Air Safety Institute video which mentioned that CFIs warn of steep banks in the pattern so students get nervous with anything close to 30-degrees or more and so when they panic they keep the ailerons at 20-degrees and mash rudder. The video went on to recommend 30-degree banks in pattern all the time as a timidness of banking seems to cause a lot of those wide turns which cause pilots to panic and over-tighten.

It's interesting looking back at my training. When I was pre-solo my CFI wanted pretty shallow banks, but by the end of the training he was showing steep turns as a way to lose altitude. Coordination coordination coordination.

Because they have been taught to fear getting the wing down so close to the ground. It ****s me to tears the way some people get taught to fly, afraid of everything. I guess I'm lucky that I learned when the last of the WWII guys were out there instructing. They taught you how to handle a plane, not be afraid of it. If we needed to tighten up base to final with a 70° bank, we used a 70° bank, no worries.

 

[Captain]

Those WWII guys were the main reason CRM became so important.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Yep, that's a slip...

No yep about it. I'm not cross controlled. Rather I simply have the wing low into the wind,touching down, landing in a straight line. When I slip, I have the stick over as far as it will go and the opposite rudder mashed to the floor, heading downhill at a healthy rate. Great for an overshot final or just for fun. I should add that the WW2 instructor that taught me explained that Stearmans always landed into the wind during WW2 training as it wanted to ground loop so very badly with its narrow gear. He explained, They mowed a big circle, with the wind sock in the middle so the cadet always landed into the wind. If you have ever flown one you quickly realize how low the lower wing is to the ground and how expensive it would be if you screw up. The Stearman has a lot of area that is exposed to a cross wind and needs the pilots utmost attention at all times. Compared to it, a mooney is a piece of cake.

 

[Henning]

No yep about it. I'm not cross controlled. Rather I simply have the wing low into the wind,touching down, landing in a straight line. When I slip, I have the stick over as far as it will go and the opposite rudder mashed to the floor, heading downhill at a healthy rate. Great for an overshot final or just for fun. I should add that the WW2 instructor that taught me explained that Stearmans always landed into the wind during WW2 training as it wanted to ground loop so very badly with its narrow gear. He explained, They mowed a big circle, with the wind sock in the middle so the cadet always landed into the wind. If you have ever flown one you quickly realize how low the lower wing is to the ground and how expensive it would be if you screw up. The Stearman has a lot of area that is exposed to a cross wind and needs the pilots utmost attention at all times. Compared to it, a mooney is a piece of cake.

If you are traveling in a straight line, fuselage lined up down a runway, wing low with a crosswind, you are in a slip.

 

[Hank S]

This is a confusion of terminology. There are side slips and forward slips . . . one to lose altitude, one to point the nose down the runway in a crosswind. Both are slips.

I rarely need to slip on final, and would never consider slipping any turns in the pattern. I do need to slip on final sometimes to keep the airplane's nose aligned with the direction of motion, so that I land straight. Never could keep the forward & sideslip terms straight, the definitions always seemed wrong to me.

If I throw the tail sideways to create drag and fall out of the sky, I'm flying sorta sideways, so is that a sideslip? If I'm cross-controlled for alignment with the runway, banking left and yawing right for a nice landing when the wind is hard from the left, is that a side slip or a forward slip? In both cases, I'm uncoordinated, and in both cases they create the desired effect.

 

[peytont]

Hope you never run into a plane like a Lancair IV-P.

I've heard this before. Can you elaborate?

 

[Alexb2000]

Here's a more interesting question-

Who here has ever accidentally gotten into a full stall and then saved the day with a practiced and rehearsed recovery? Who here has ever even heard of a story like this?

I agree this is the more interesting question. One could argue that teaching people to keep pulling into the stall during training is the opposite muscle memory reaction we are looking for in an emergency.

 

[Henning]

This is a confusion of terminology. There are side slips and forward slips . . . one to lose altitude, one to point the nose down the runway in a crosswind. Both are slips.

I rarely need to slip on final, and would never consider slipping any turns in the pattern. I do need to slip on final sometimes to keep the airplane's nose aligned with the direction of motion, so that I land straight. Never could keep the forward & sideslip terms straight, the definitions always seemed wrong to me.

If I throw the tail sideways to create drag and fall out of the sky, I'm flying sorta sideways, so is that a sideslip? If I'm cross-controlled for alignment with the runway, banking left and yawing right for a nice landing when the wind is hard from the left, is that a side slip or a forward slip? In both cases, I'm uncoordinated, and in both cases they create the desired effect.

There is only one slip, when you present the side of the plane to the relative wind while traveling into it. The difference in a 'side slip' and a 'forward slip' is why you use them, what your point of reference is.

 

[docmirror]

I don't practice them except at BFR time. In fact, just thinking of the last BFR, we didn't even do a stall. I was too worn out from cranking the emer gear handle down. ugh...

I get in, I fly, I come back to an airport and 'practice' my stall about 3" above the runway.

I did have an accidental stall once in the Citabria long ago. No AoA, no stall warning horn or light. I had released a glider and was turning back to the airport, and got distracted. I think I was checking out a girl on the ground or something, and pushed the rudder a bunch. It stalled, I poked the stick forward, and got it straight with the rudder then put my brain back in the game. It was - interesting.

 

[CharlieTango]

This is a confusion of terminology. There are side slips and forward slips . . . one to lose altitude, one to point the nose down the runway in a crosswind. Both are slips.

I rarely need to slip on final, and would never consider slipping any turns in the pattern. I do need to slip on final sometimes to keep the airplane's nose aligned with the direction of motion, so that I land straight. Never could keep the forward & sideslip terms straight, the definitions always seemed wrong to me.

If I throw the tail sideways to create drag and fall out of the sky, I'm flying sorta sideways, so is that a sideslip? If I'm cross-controlled for alignment with the runway, banking left and yawing right for a nice landing when the wind is hard from the left, is that a side slip or a forward slip? In both cases, I'm uncoordinated, and in both cases they create the desired effect.

Aerodynamically a side slip and a forward slip are identical.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

I was told explicitly "no more than 20 degrees of bank in the pattern"
In the last few months my standard base to final turn is now right around the 30 degree mark.

I haven't overshot final since I threw that "no more than 20 degrees" crap out the window.

 

[Matthew]

I remember being told to use standard rate turn in the pattern. I can't tremember thge reason I was given. I try to do that with pax, but when solo I do whatever worksfor what I'm trying to do.

I used to practice stalls a lot, but that was when I was renting multiple planes and stalls and slow flight are good ways to get a feel for each plane. Now I pretty much fly the same plane, so I don't do stalls on a regular basis.

 

[ja_user]

I never did them solo until well after my ppl. I now do them anytime I haven't got recent time in a plane, same as slow flight.

 

[RoscoeT]

Hope you never run into a plane like a Lancair IV-P.

So you're saying one of those shouldn't be stalled? What is your Lancair IV-P experience?

 

[ARFlyer]

I was told explicitly "no more than 20 degrees of bank in the pattern"
In the last few months my standard base to final turn is now right around the 30 degree mark.

I haven't overshot final since I threw that "no more than 20 degrees" crap out the window.

I tell my students no more than 30 degrees in the pattern. If your going to overshoot let the plane do so and then slowly bring it back.

I practice stalls every time I show my students. If something goes wacky I explain why and what I did wrong/right.

 

[Henning]

I was told explicitly "no more than 20 degrees of bank in the pattern"
In the last few months my standard base to final turn is now right around the 30 degree mark.

I haven't overshot final since I threw that "no more than 20 degrees" crap out the window.

That s the kind of **** poor instruction that gets people skidding turns and getting into spins at pattern altitude.

 

[timwinters]

If we needed to tighten up base to final with a 70° bank, we used a 70° bank, no worries.

And that bank angle is mandatory when landing at a Circle J for fuel, right?





...

 

[JHW]

Here's a more interesting question-

Who here has ever accidentally gotten into a full stall and then saved the day with a practiced and rehearsed recovery? Who here has ever even heard of a story like this?

I have, doing the initial flights of new homebuilts you find all kind of wierd things including stalls at higher than expected speeds due to minor variations in incidence etc.

 

[Geico266]

Hope you never run into a plane like a Lancair IV-P.

Never be afraid of any airplane. If the stall is abrupt or violent you need to know it, what speed it stalls at, and how to recover from it.

 

[poadeleted20]

I can't remember the last time I practiced a stall on my own, but I sure do teach a lot of them, and even better, I do so in a variety of different airplanes. It's very interesting seeing the differing stall characteristics of the various designs.

 

[timwinters]

Here's a more interesting question-

Who here has ever accidentally gotten into a full stall <snip>

Since they typically occur close to the ground, isn't that kind of like asking: "Who here has stuck their head in a spinning propellor?" Not many are around to speak of the experience.

I admittedly don't practice stalls as often as I should but I do practice slow flight a lot, especially in the winter, because it's fun and warms my oil.

I believe that stall practice is as much (or more) about learning your plane's characteristics and thus avoiding stalls as it is about learning to recover from them successfully.

 

[ChrisK]

And that bank angle is mandatory when landing at a Circle J for fuel, right?

Dude I hope you meant Flying J. A Circle J is something completely different

I was told explicitly "no more than 20 degrees of bank in the pattern"
In the last few months my standard base to final turn is now right around the 30 degree mark.

I haven't overshot final since I threw that "no more than 20 degrees" crap out the window.

The "good" pilots / instructors I fly with tend to nail 30 degrees of bank in the pattern. I was also taught to correct with rudder on final. I have since learned that this is complete BS and would eventually get me killed and I should just fly the damn airplane until I am in a landing attitude, at which point I land the damn airplane.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

Dude I hope you meant Flying J. A Circle J is something completely different.

HAHAHA!!!

 

[timwinters]

Dude I hope you meant Flying J. A Circle J is something completely different

Well, it was Henning after all.

 

[Alexb2000]

With most passengers if you bank 70 degrees base to final, you won't have to worry about them ever flying with you again.

IMO if you routinely have to bank more than 30 in the pattern your airmanship needs some work. Base to final crashes happen because guys let themselves get sloppy.

 

[Dav8or]

Since they typically occur close to the ground, isn't that kind of like asking: "Who here has stuck their head in a spinning propellor?" Not many are around to speak of the experience.

That's kind of my point. Many pilots seem to think that going out and practicing stalls regularly is going to save their life one day. Their ability to keep that ball perfectly centered as the plane breaks for the ground will come in really handy. So if this is so, lets hear about all the saves!

So far we have one guy who recovered his Citabria. He didn't say at what altitude though. We have another guy who was performing test pilot duties on new airplanes of unknown characteristics, again no mention of altitude.

My point is, I think there are a lot of people practicing bobbling up and down in the sky for little benefit. I think everyone should stall their plane once so they know what it looks like and feels like before the stall. I think it's pretty safe to say everyone gets the recovery procedure right away. I agree 100% with the FAA's position that stall avoidance is key.

If people really want to practice something that actually has a high potential to save their lives, they should skip the stalls and practice engine out glides from several miles out from the airport, not just in the traffic pattern. It's harder than it sounds and it is a skill that you likely will need one day the longer you fly.

 

[RoscoeT]

If people really want to practice something that actually has a high potential to save their lives, they should skip the stalls and practice engine out glides from several miles out from the airport, not just in the traffic pattern. It's harder than it sounds and it is a skill that you likely will need one day the longer you fly.

Or also power off landings abeam the numbers each time. And I don't want to hear that your Cessna or Warrior or Mooney's descent rate is "too high" doing that. Hogwash.

 

[Henning]

And that bank angle is mandatory when landing at a Circle J for fuel, right?





...

Flying J and no lol, I didn't go in theatre there for the Circle J. I landed in a 60-70kt headwind basically hovering down. That was why I had to land there, couldn't get fuel anywhere else and still finish the pipeline route. No, large bank angles are needed when too close to the field with a strong crosswind that is a tailwind on base and you have parallel runways on an uncontrolled field like Compton.

 

[timwinters]

Flying J and no lol, I didn't go in theatre there for the Circle J. I landed in a 60-70kt headwind basically hovering down.

Man, it just keeps getting deeper in here, doesn't it?

I don't think I've seen any pipeline planes in the last 30 years or so that had a stall speed which would allow one to land in those winds.

You flew an F-15 on pipeline patrol, Henning?

 

[danhagan]

I do plan on getting some upset training so I can explore the edges of the envelope a bit.

I did with a CFI that owns a Pitts. We spent half a day doing a BFR and flight. Spins, aileron rolls and a few other maneuvers ... quite a lot of fun. Great instructor too. Every 5 minutes he'd ask if I was ok or needed a break. It was hotter than snot, but I was fine. First time wearing a parachute too

IMO if you routinely have to bank more than 30 in the pattern your airmanship needs some work. Base to final crashes happen because guys let themselves get sloppy.

The guys practicing stalls ought to be practicing ground reference maneuvers instead. I probably do WAY too many power off 180's, but that's my favorite landing if there aren't any slow AC in the pattern ahead of me.

 

[wsuffa]

I did some this AM with a CFI for Wings credit (which counts for BFR).

It's always interesting to see the reaction when we aim for power-on stalls with the vortex generators on the wing. Came pretty close to a 30-degree deck angle before I backed down power just bit.

 

[Mike5250]

I did them regularly in the 172 I trained in, but after moving up to the 182 and even after experiencing they are a less aggressive than the 172, I feel more comfortable having a more experienced pilot with me, just in case. So put me in the "cautious" list. I absolutley wont do power-on without some backup.

I'm not a cfi but if a stall worries you in a 182 it may not hurt to practice them more often with your CFI.

 

[steingar]

Here's a more interesting question-

Who here has ever accidentally gotten into a full stall and then saved the day with a practiced and rehearsed recovery? Who here has ever even heard of a story like this?

I did on my first approach to Osh. Too busy looking at the guy ahead of me, and BAM!, I'm looking at the ground. Recovered quickly and kept going. One and only time. Got my attention.

 

[wsuffa]

I did on my first approach to Osh. Too busy looking at the guy ahead of me, and BAM!, I'm looking at the ground. Recovered quickly and kept going. One and only time. Got my attention.

Not a full stall, but the vortex generators kept me from stalling close to ground:

Tower: "Keep speed as fast as practical and make a shortened base and final turn. T38 on long final".

Ah, yep, ended up with stall recovery and go-round.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Nobody said it did. If ya want to swap Piaggio trivia I'm all in.

Not looking to play jeopardy. You said that since you flew the Piaggio you knew all about "the canard thing". Flying the Piaggio does not tell you anything about flight characteristics of aircraft with a true canard flight control surface since the Piaggio doesn't have one.

 

[Dav8or]

Not a full stall, but the vortex generators kept me from stalling close to ground:

Tower: "Keep speed as fast as practical and make a shortened base and final turn. T38 on long final".

Ah, yep, ended up with stall recovery and go-round.

I don't get it. They asked you to speed up, but you ended up stalling? What am I missing?