Which way to turn?

TeenDoc

TeenDoc

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
376
Location
Jersey City, NJ
Display Name
Display name:
TeenDoc
I am studying this IAP in preparation for a flight to Watertown and suddenly I pictured myself in the following situation:




Let's say you missed the first time and are now holding at ART as published. After a few turns around the racetrack and as you complete the turn inbound ATC clears you for the approach again. Upon passing over the VORTAC,
  • Would you turn right in the direction of the holding pattern approximately 260-275 degrees to establish the course to intercept R-275?
or,
  • Would you turn left in the opposite direction of the holding pattern approximately 160-175 degrees to establish the course to intercept R-275?
and,
  • Does it matter?
 

Attachments

  • art_ils_or_loc_rwy_07.pdf
    237.4 KB · Views: 57
Last edited:
I would turn left. It is the shortest turn and terrain clearance shouldn't be an issue.

Does it matter? Probably not. There is nothing that states you make the turn in a certain direction and you're protected on both sides. I generally try and consider all the local terrain in my decisions but the approaches are pretty well designed to protect you as long as you don't do something incredibly stupid.
 
Last edited:
Ditto. The hold is at 2400' which is also the MSA.

The real question is would a right turn possibly conflict with the guy alread on the loc? Secondly, I'd include "and cross the localizer" or some such verbage in the readback given the 400 ft vertical clearance at the OM.
 
TeenDoc said:
Does it matter?
Click to expand...

Boy you guys come up with some out of the box scenarios. Personally I don't think it matters. Personally, I would turn left. And my default answer to this is: Personally, I would ask ATC what they expect.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Boy you guys come up with some out of the box scenarios. Personally I don't think it matters. Personally, I would turn left. And my default answer to this is: Personally, I would ask ATC what they expect.
Click to expand...

Rarely have I heard ATC direct me without saying which way to turn. I'd expect to hear "turn left heading 2-5-0, intercept the 275 radial, cleared for ....". Then again, SoCal is generally a radar environment.
 
Pi1otguy said:
The real question is would a right turn possibly conflict with the guy alread on the loc? Secondly, I'd include "and cross the localizer" or some such verbage in the readback given the 400 ft vertical clearance at the OM.
Click to expand...

Uhh, given the OP said INBOUND to the VOR, a right turn would take you AWAY from the LOC. And as stated, if there was someone on the LOC, you wouldn't be cleared the approach from the VOR.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Uhh, given the OP said INBOUND to the VOR, a right turn would take you AWAY from the LOC. And as stated, if there was someone on the LOC, you wouldn't be cleared the approach from the VOR.
Click to expand...

I thought "ditto" indicated left turn, oh well. no biggie. I can't believe I missed that detail about LOC though. my bad. I must be losing it as creep up in age.
 
Pi1otguy said:
I thought "ditto" indicated left turn, oh well. no biggie. I can't believe I missed that detail about LOC though. my bad. I must be losing it as creep up in age.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I caught that. But a right turn would be less of an issue to the guy on the LOC than a left turn. Moot point anyway. :smile:
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Yeah, I caught that. But a right turn would be less of an issue to the guy on the LOC than a left turn. Moot point anyway. :smile:
Click to expand...

Agreed, moot point.

Moot question:
Wouldn't a left turn leave more less vertical separation for our non-exsistant guy on the LOC instead of a possibly wide (fast mover?) right turn at 2400' over the 2000' on the LOC (before OM)?
 
Last edited:
Passing the VOR, standard rate right turn back to the VOR
passing the VOR, fly 275 radial off ART outbound
upon intercepting the 005 radial off SYR
execute the standard rate turn left back to the ILS/LOC R07 065 heading
 
Last edited:
john smith said:
Passing the VOR, standard rate right turn back to the VOR
passing the VOR, fly 275 radial off ART outbound
upon intercepting the 005 radial off SYR
execute the standard rate turn left back to the ILS/LOC R07 065 heading
Click to expand...

That is one way of doing it. :yes: Why fly the ART275 all the way out to SYR005? The SYR005 is used to identify HENDI intersection, not indicate when it is time to turn inbound off the ART275.
 
Pi1otguy said:
Agreed, moot point.

Moot question:
Wouldn't a left turn leave more vertical separation for our non-exsistant guy on the LOC instead of a possibly wide (fast mover?) right turn at 2400' over the 2000' on the LOC (before OM)?
Click to expand...

Looks like it to me. :smile:
 
That's true. Much farther than one needs to fly.
Maybe 90 seconds past WOLLS then left standard rate turn back to the ILS/LOC just outside WOLLS.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Looks like it to me. :smile:
Click to expand...
grr.... typo. i meant less. Mondays are tough when u reach my age.

400' separation for the right turn instead of the left turn over where the (non-existant) guy is on the GS.
You know what, nm. My mind is still asleep instead of here at work with me.:loco:
 
jesse said:
I would turn left. It is the shortest turn and terrain clearance shouldn't be an issue.
Click to expand...
I agree.
Does it matter? Probably not. There is nothing that states you make the turn in a certain direction and you're protected on both sides.
Click to expand...
The protected zone is larger on the teardrop side of the procedure, bit with the holding pattern on the opposite side, you'll be protected in the turn to the side away from the teardrop leg.
 
Turn right and ask for vectors to final.
 
TeenDoc said:
Let's say you missed the first time and are now holding at ART as published. After a few turns around the racetrack and as you complete the turn inbound ATC clears you for the approach again. Upon passing over the VORTAC,
  • Would you turn right in the direction of the holding pattern approximately 260-275 degrees to establish the course to intercept R-275?
or,
  • Would you turn left in the opposite direction of the holding pattern approximately 160-175 degrees to establish the course to intercept R-275?
and,
  • Does it matter?
Click to expand...

Interesting, I would probably roll out of the hold on a heading of 290-295 to intercept the R-275 then finish the procedure. I don't really think it would matter since it's all protected airspace, I would make the choice I did because it would provide the smoothest transition for my passengers.
 
get on the radial any way, the fastest way - the airspace is yours.
 
Last edited:
Ron Levy said:
Nice thought, bad thinking.
Click to expand...

Why is it such bad thinking? I'm already turning right in my holding pattern anyway - and after a few cycles I should know how long I'm flying to get that 1 minute inbound leg.. It sounds like I am handcuffed in making a decision in this scenario until I cross the VORTAC one last time. At that point I'd rather make all right turns (since I've done a few of them anyway) to the FAC instead of a left turn, crossing the FAC, then rejoining it.

I always ask for VTF.
 
EdFred said:
Why is it such bad thinking? I'm already turning right in my holding pattern anyway - and after a few cycles I should know how long I'm flying to get that 1 minute inbound leg.. It sounds like I am handcuffed in making a decision in this scenario until I cross the VORTAC one last time. At that point I'd rather make all right turns (since I've done a few of them anyway) to the FAC instead of a left turn, crossing the FAC, then rejoining it.

I always ask for VTF.
Click to expand...
Once you're cleared for the full approach, it's a bit late to be asking for VTF.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Why?:confused:
Click to expand...
Because the controller's already set up his game plan for you flying the full approach -- they hate being surprised like that after you've left the IAF. You might get it, but in most places, it isn't likely, and you can't even be sure that VTF is available.
 
Ron Levy said:
Because the controller's already set up his game plan for you flying the full approach -- they hate being surprised like that after you've left the IAF. You might get it, but in most places, it isn't likely, and you can't even be sure that VTF is available.
Click to expand...
Still won't hurt anyone or anything to ask..
 
You don't get if you don't ask. That's why I always file direct. Sometimes I win, sometimes I lose. Plus, almost without exception VTF is going to get you out of their hair faster than the full approach.
 
It’s always interesting to pick POA’s collective brain. Before I posted the questions, my preferred option was the right turn. After reading all the answers, I still prefer the right turn for the reasons expressed here but, I see nothing wrong with the other option.

It’s always easy and probably safer to ask for VTF, but this option is not always available and I’d rather be prepared to complete the approach from the last enroute fix if I have to. I hate last minute surprises, especially when I can’t see where I’m going.

I’ve been to Watertown only twice before, both times executing AFNE missions; therefore always on IFR flight plans. Both times, approximately 30 minutes from KART in my slow C172, I was warned by Griffin Approach that “we will loose radar contact and Wheeler Sack might not pick you up until you’re established on final. Which approach do you prefer?”

Thanks for your opinions.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top