Which Plane.... Again

[poadeleted21]

I'm torn, looking at 3 planes at the moment with some others on the back burner.

1. 1963 Beech Debonair -- 1230 SMOH - 530W, STEC 50 A/P, 250XL, 1980s style velvet interior decent paint.

2. 1968 Cessna 182, New paint job, Dual KX170Bs, KN62 DME, Cessna FLY-O-Matic or whatever cheesy name they had for their A/P's back then. Decent interior. 700SMOH

3. 1966 Mooney M20E, ridiculously restored, 530W with weather, STEC 50 and modern (steam gauge) panel, new engine, 201 cowling, new interior, paint is new. Owner claims 10knots above book values.. i haven't seen it.

Kicking around some V-Tail Bo's too.

My mission is all over the place, need to finish my IR rating, if it takes 20 more hours, I'll be disappointed so not a big deal, I've just been dragging it on for a year now. Would like to take the plane into some USFS strips in MT and ID a few times per year (not bush flying but 5-7000' ft elevation grass strips in the mountains). 5-10 300-400 mile XCs per year, multiple 100 milers, and 1 maybe 2 1300NM XC's per year.

I have cash on had to purchase 1,2 or 3. If the Deb had 500 SMOH, i'd buy it tomorrow and go on with life. I don't have cash to put a new engine on it when TBO arrives in a year or so. I know at 1501 hrs engines self destruct. I know I can keep flying it but I know once it crosses TBO, I want cash on hand to toss a new engine on it, even if I don't.

The mooney is the sweetest looking one is respectable in speed with the Deb, but i'm concerned about it being a runway hog, especially in the mountains and having flown a PA28 150 for the past few years... I'm tired of climbing to 12,500 then pulling out the before landing checklist.

The 182 seems to be the compromise, I'd like a little more panel in it and I swore the next plane I bought would have the panel I wanted in it... not going through that again. I likely won't have the cash to plop a GTN650 in it for a while, so I'd have to live with the KX170B's for a while, but the MX and Insurance costs of a fixed gear might make more sense and get me that GTN650 sooner than later. I've never touched an Autopilot so I don't know what I'm missing. Another plus to the 182 is that my CFI/A&P/Hangar owner wants/needs a 182 type plane for 1 maybe 2 students per year here and there. (He's mainly and A&P/IA) and his personal flying. He currently leases back a 172RG but the owners takes it away for the summer so it's not ideal for him. So with the 182, he'd put approx 100hours per year on it, and I'd get free hangar, insurance and annuals out of it. He owns 2 Cessna 150s and just wants something with some ooommmpfff in the summer to get over the hills.

 

[SCCutler]

Beechcraft.

Seriously, a 470, well maintained, cares not one whit about the TBO number.

 

[Morne]

I'm a sucker for a 182.

 

[Henning]

PM sent... Looks like a good one...

 

[poadeleted21]

PM sent... Looks like a good one...

The Deb I'm looking at has half the engine time, at least $15,000 more eye candy in the panel. for a similar price. That one seems to have nicer paint, but it's yellow.

 

[Anthony]

I'd also go Beech, and if you have time, you may just want to wait until the plane with the panel, AND engine time comes on the market. Also, A/P for IFR is very nice to have even it you haven't used one before.

If you really want shorter field performance the Beech or 182 is the way to go.

Get what you really want. You don't have to compromise if you have the time to look.

 

[jason]

Is it a 225 hp Debonair? If so, don't convince yourself that it's the same thing as a 285 hp v-tail Bo. I love the Debonair that we fly around here...but I'd be hesitant to take it up into a USFS strip at 7000 ft with more than one person on board. Jesse can give you more specifics of his experience taking the Debonair into and out of Gaston's last month. I remember him saying that it did fine...but he wasn't sure that he'd want to load much more into it for takeoff.

The Deb that we fly trues out around 155 kts almost every time. It's not a climber, but it gets the job done. Once you level off it takes a LOOOOOOONG time to accelerate to that 155 kts.

It may seem like I'm dogging on the plane. I'm not trying to. I absolutely love flying it. Love. I just want to make sure that you know what you're getting. I'd tend to agree that I'd want more in the panel than that 182. You'll REALLY appreciate a 430W when you get your instrument rating. It makes everything so so much easier. Being able to shoot an LPV approach opens up a lot of options that you'd never otherwise have access to and having WAAS seriously opens up your options for IFR alternates.

That said, I might rule out the 182 unless it is more important for you to do the USFS trips than real world traveling in decent IFR.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Is it a 225 hp Debonair? If so, don't convince yourself that it's the same thing as a 285 hp v-tail Bo. I love the Debonair that we fly around here...but I'd be hesitant to take it up into a USFS strip at 7000 ft with more than one person on board. Jesse can give you more specifics of his experience taking the Debonair into and out of Gaston's last month. I remember him saying that it did fine...but he wasn't sure that he'd want to load much more into it for takeoff.

The Deb that we fly trues out around 155 kts almost every time. It's not a climber, but it gets the job done. Once you level off it takes a LOOOOOOONG time to accelerate to that 155 kts.

It may seem like I'm dogging on the plane. I'm not trying to. I absolutely love flying it. Love. I just want to make sure that you know what you're getting. I'd tend to agree that I'd want more in the panel than that 182. You'll REALLY appreciate a 430W when you get your instrument rating. It makes everything so so much easier. Being able to shoot an LPV approach opens up a lot of options that you'd never otherwise have access to and having WAAS seriously opens up your options for IFR alternates.

That said, I might rule out the 182 unless it is more important for you to do the USFS trips than real world traveling in decent IFR.

I've had zero issues flying a 225 hp Debonair in and out of KTVL (6,300', near 10K density altitude) in the Summer.

 

[jason]

I've had zero issues flying a 225 hp Debonair in and out of KTVL (6,300', near 10K density altitude) in the Summer.

That's also a mile and a half long paved runway. I was mostly referring to the USFS fields that he mentioned in his OP.

 

[denverpilot]

I'm a sucker for a 182, of course.

But here's another kicker you may want to check into...

If you have zero high-performance, and zero complex, and zero retract time... insurance is going to be high for a year on any of them.

You may want to find out if any of those types is available to you locally and rent your way past that insurance price bump.

Depends on what the quotes are. And of course, those specific airplanes may have sold by the time you've rented enough to pass the Insurance underwriter's lower limits for a reasonable price.

More numbers to crunch for ya.

 

[Henning]

Renting for the 50-100 hrs to get over the 'insurance hump' will cost far more than a few hundred bucks the hump will cost in any of those.

 

[j1b3h0]

Clearly, lots of Beech fans. Count me among them, for the following reasons: Beech products, and Bonanzas in particular have light responsive, harmonized flight controls. For that reason, they are more challenging to fly IFR. They have big picture windows and excellent performance. Back seat is comfortable for passengers...although depending on which model, you may only be able to take one in the back seat. Or, you may be able to take 4 adults - but only for awhile, as fuel burnoff moves the CG aft. There is a great support network - the American Bonanza Society - full of enthusiastic Bonanza fanatics to advise you, and pretty good parts availability. Bonanzas are quite upgradeable...speed slope windscreens, etc. In fact it takes a real savy Bonanza person to tell what vintage Bo you're looking at sometimes because they're so highly modified. As has been mentioned, some folks think Debs and Bos are somewhat underpowered with less than 260hp. By 1962 all Bos had a more modern panel. Before you squander any pesonality, poke around Beechtalk.com.

 

[denverpilot]

Renting for the 50-100 hrs to get over the 'insurance hump' will cost far more than a few hundred bucks the hump will cost in any of those.

The hump is ten hours in type in the 182 with our underwriter. Not 100. You could substitute a pile of HP/Complex time for it also, but that's not where he's at.

I haven't quoted the others so, I left it up to him to find out.

That said, I don't know of any company that requires 100 in type for any of those. And I'm talking about the really big up-front price hump for 0/0. There's smaller humps at bigger numbers later on, with some underwriters.

So you're down to buying a Textron, or a Superior Air Parts... There is no Cessna or Beechcraft anymore.

 

[poadeleted21]

Insurance is a non-issue on these planes. There is no really big upfront hump, not in "airplane money" anyway. looking at roughly $600 more for the first year over my Cherokee.

 

[Henning]

The hump is ten hours in type in the 182 with our underwriter. Not 100. You could substitute a pile of HP/Complex time for it also, but that's not where he's at.

I haven't quoted the others so, I left it up to him to find out.

That said, I don't know of any company that requires 100 in type for any of those. And I'm talking about the really big up-front price hump for 0/0. There's smaller humps at bigger numbers later on, with some underwriters.

So you're down to buying a Textron, or a Superior Air Parts... There is no Cessna or Beechcraft anymore.

No, 10 hours gets you TO the hump, it's the dual required before you can go alone at the high premium. 50 hrs hits the first break, 100 hrs gets you to prime rate (.9-1.5% hull value). Although with the 182, it may only be 10-25 hrs to get to prime.

 

[poadeleted21]

I've had zero issues flying a 225 hp Debonair in and out of KTVL (6,300', near 10K density altitude) in the Summer.

I've had zero issues flying my 150HP Cherokee out of airports like that. I'm looking at 3,000' grass strips 10,000' DA with surrounding terrain.

 

[Henning]

I've had zero issues flying my 150HP Cherokee out of airports like that. I'm looking at 3,000' grass strips 10,000' DA with surrounding terrain.

Depends on the load you intend and the empty weight. 225hp in a Deb will get you off in that, but you'll be circling to climb out if the terrain gets too steep. 260 is a heck of a lot nicer safety margin at those DAs and will allow some more camping beer...errr gear....

 

[poadeleted21]

Depends on the load you intend and the empty weight. 225hp in a Deb will get you off in that, but you'll be circling to climb out if the terrain gets too steep. 260 is a heck of a lot nicer safety margin at those DAs and will allow some more camping beer...errr gear....

This strip is either a 45 minute flight from my hangar or a 2.5 hour drive and a 30 mile hike/horsepack.

 

[Henning]

Yeah, you'll get away with 225 there, but I'm always a fan of excess HP. Through my life the throttle has saved my ass way more than brakes lol.

 

[epsalant]

I can tell you after flying/owning an M20J (which will fly like what you're looking at) for 3 years now, and having maybe 70 hours in Bonanzas a few things. Nothing flies like a Bonanza. Nothing. Nothing flies as efficiently as a Mooney. Nothing. Mooney's fly wonderfully, but they don't land so well. Not forgiving at all. You'd better not land a Mooney with 10kt extra airspeed. You can do that in most other planes, not a Mooney. Nor would I ever land it on grass. I just don't think it's the right mission for the Mooney. I routinely land at 3000' paved fields, and when I'm flying well, I'm stopped by the half way mark if I have a 5-10 kt headwind. I'd not recommend taking it into anything much shorter than 4000 ft until you have some experience under your belt. But if grass is on your mission list, the Mooney, for all its great qualities, shouldn't be on your list.

Have you made up your mind yet ?

 

[jason]

I can tell you after flying/owning an M20J (which will fly like what you're looking at) for 3 years now, and having maybe 70 hours in Bonanzas a few things. Nothing flies like a Bonanza. Nothing. Nothing flies as efficiently as a Mooney. Nothing. Mooney's fly wonderfully, but they don't land so well. Not forgiving at all. You'd better not land a Mooney with 10kt extra airspeed. You can do that in most other planes, not a Mooney. Nor would I ever land it on grass. I just don't think it's the right mission for the Mooney. I routinely land at 3000' paved fields, and when I'm flying well, I'm stopped by the half way mark if I have a 5-10 kt headwind. I'd not recommend taking it into anything much shorter than 4000 ft until you have some experience under your belt. But if grass is on your mission list, the Mooney, for all its great qualities, shouldn't be on your list.

Have you made up your mind yet ?

I've seen many a Mooney land on the grass at Gaston's. None of them had a problem. I think one just needs to be picky about the quality of the runway.

 

[Henning]

Yep, there are grass runways out there smoother than Tarmac, I made one, it's got goats, llamas and horses grazing on it now...

 

[NineThreeKilo]

M20, you'll get your best bang for the buck.

The beech aircraft tend to be more of a over-hyped plane for under-skilled pilots with more money then brains

The 182 is a great airplane to tear the interior out of and use for a small DZ, outside of that role just the wimpy 2 doored little brother of the 206/7 and the dumb fat big brother of the 172.

Mooney will get you there quick and is more of a no frills get chit done aircraft.

 

[Henning]

M20, you'll get your best bang for the buck.

The beech aircraft tend to be more of a over-hyped plane for under-skilled pilots with more money then brains

The 182 is a great airplane to tear the interior out of and use for a small DZ, outside of that role just the wimpy 2 doored little brother of the 206/7 and the dumb fat big brother of the 172.

Mooney will get you there quick and is more of a no frills get chit done aircraft.

Considering he's bought a Bonanza already....

 

[poadeleted21]

M20, you'll get your best bang for the buck.

The beech aircraft tend to be more of a over-hyped plane for under-skilled pilots with more money then brains

The 182 is a great airplane to tear the interior out of and use for a small DZ, outside of that role just the wimpy 2 doored little brother of the 206/7 and the dumb fat big brother of the 172.

Mooney will get you there quick and is more of a no frills get chit done aircraft.

Yup, bought the Bonanza, your description is probably accurate. Except the "more money then than brains" part. I'm broke and dumb.

 

[denverpilot]

The 182 is a great airplane to tear the interior out of and use for a small DZ, outside of that role just the wimpy 2 doored little brother of the 206/7 and the dumb fat big brother of the 172.

79M keeps asking me if she can keep some mouse named George.