Which Airplane!!! Or a plane at all??

So, other than the ad Tom linked (which is literally the first G-1 I have seen since the 80's), where are they now?

I'd think you'd have a better chance of finding and picking up an SF340 or a BE-1900 than an airworthy G-1.
 
FWIW we flew our 135 Chieftain 150 hrs last year

Looks like maintenance costs were just barely over 7k.

Granted this is a plane with 150 hrs on all the life limited parts but it does show what happens when you stay ahead of the curve.
 
Okay, let's settle this once and for all: I don't really like Cessnas, but one I could be talked into would be a dash ten powered 441. It'l carry eight fat guys at 320kts on somewhere around 80-90gph. Dash ten 690 Commanders work pretty well, too, but parts are getting scarce. Or buy a Saab 340B and take the entire extended family, 260kts, 180gph.
 
I do like the Chieftain. A good one will do 185kts, with a pretty good load. Noisier than a 421, but I trust the Lycs better than the GTSIOs on the Cessna. I flew freight in the 404 (same engines as the 421) and it was real quiet for a piston twin. All of these airplanes require a delicate throttle hand and careful stage-cooling, lest the bad cylinder bill will go though the roof. But twins of this category are almost always equipt with boots, hot props, windshield and solid IFR panels. I'm somewhat biased, but after so much 135 flying in the weather, turbine engines require so much less fuss, and they have the mojo to climb above or at least plow through the ice. Piston pilots have fewer options.
 
Ron Levy said:
In Japan -- just ask Tom.
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sorry to say, but Japan has junked them too. They have seen their day, but they were a great old bird, that served you well.

You did take training in them didn't you?
 
This is a nice looking airplane, not really sure about the market for these but isn't $75,000 a little steep for a plane 6 years out of annual? Low time plane, low time engines, make a lowball offer? There seem to be some going for less on Barnstormers, some going for much more but those have things like dual 430's

No affiliation, just came across it while doing my daily airplane browsing. Would skip right by it if I hadn't been reading this thread, I have no interest in twins at this stage
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CESS...?pt=Motors_Aircraft&hash=item3cc209e2d7#v4-43
 
eMKay said:
This is a nice looking airplane, not really sure about the market for these but isn't $75,000 a little steep for a plane 6 years out of annual? Low time plane, low time engines, make a lowball offer? There seem to be some going for less on Barnstormers, some going for much more but those have things like dual 430's

No affiliation, just came across it while doing my daily airplane browsing. Would skip right by it if I hadn't been reading this thread, I have no interest in twins at this stage
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CESS...?pt=Motors_Aircraft&hash=item3cc209e2d7#v4-43
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In this market IMHO 75k is too high for any 310.
 
To the OP:

Flying commercial 5 people X $400 = $2000 x 6 trips per year = $12K.

Long distance major city to major city are the worst possible scenarios for GA.

Take that $200K invest at even 5% and you have almost paid for those tickets.

I would think long and hard about this.

If I still wanted to do it, before I even considered buying ANY aircraft for this specific mission, I would rent one and make the trip. See how the family reacts and go from there. I would try to find something like an A36 to rent since it offers the best compromise of cost, room, speed, for your mission and could be purchased and operated within your budget.

Please don't get your head in the clouds and fall for the "cheap" old pressurized twin lure. They are cheap for a reason, that is the poor bastard who owns it would likely pay someone to take it off his/her hands.
 
Morne said:
Does the 421 compare favorably with the Navajo?
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Yes, especially with the pressurized Mojave (350hp TIO 540s IIRC) and the P-Navajo (425hp TIGO-541, figure $135,000 a side FWF to overhaul:eek:. You can own turbines cheaper considering the TBO difference.)

I have a buddy with a couple of 421s and 3 Chieftains. His 421s are cheaper to operate but don't make as much money.
 
Tom-D said:
An excerpt from an article, BY MARC E. COOK (From AOPA Pilot, November 2004.)

Today there are really two kinds of 310 owners. One is the pragmatist who wants a fast, capable airplane that's not extraordinarily difficult to fly or maintain. (Baron and 310 owners debate the relative merits of this chosen brand, but word is that the Cessna, despite being out of production for more than two decades, is not any more a maintenance burden than similarly complex airplanes.) The other owner is probably best called a practical romanticist. That describes Chuck Jessen, owner of this beautiful 1954 Cessna 310. Jessen's airplane was built at the end of 1954 and just missed its acceptance flight in that year to the Christmas holidays. (Actually, there's a third kind of early 310 owner: The crass soul who sees a dead-cheap multiengine airplane that can be run on minimal maintenance until something big goes wrong. Then another magnificent machine is essentially scrapped. This kind of owner figures prominently in the world of early vintage 310s.)
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Boy he's got that straight which is why finding a slick one is rare as hens teeth. They aren't necessarily crass, a lot of them are time builders who figure if they can buy a $25,000 310 with a fresh pencil whipped annual, fly it for a year and a couple hundred hours before the next annual and sell it or scrap it, they'll be money ahead of renting, and with the IO-470s as long as they fly it to build time (50% power, super lean and slow) they stand a good chance of pulling it off. If they have an MEI, they can even get other people to pay them to build multi time.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Okay, back to the older twins.....anybody got figures on hourly op costs.....for say 100 hrs per year:
AC 500
B58 Barron
PA31
C340
C421...or any of the piston 400s

So far, I've figured the AC500 to be around 500/hr from talking to some owners. Have no clue about the others.
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AC 500 $375-$500
B58 Barron $275-$350
PA31 $325-$1800 (Large variety from PA 31-310 to PA 31-425P with a large variety of expenses)
C340 $325-$450
C421 $325-$450

That's a ball park for a nice copy of the airplane and keeping it that way. Area you live in and operating habits of coarse play a large roll where in that (or outside) one would fit.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
If I was looking at 310's ( I owned a 72 Q for ten years) I wouldn't look at anything prior to 1966 model. The old ones with the over wing exhaust and augmenters can be an expensive endeavor.
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Yes they can :eek:, if the owner prior to me wasn't a meticulous craftsman who had just spent a lot of money and time doing a full IRAN on them this one, I wouldn't have bought it. He spent over $20k on them. I didn't want a 310 when I bought this one, it was just too good of a plane to pass up. I've gotten into those before and it looked like the dogs breakfast.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Two questions:

1) What do you figure the wet hourly cost for an average owner (i.e. pays someone to do all the MX) is on a Malibu like you mentioned? All-inclusive for insurance, training, hangar, MX, etc.

2) What are your cabin pressures when flying at the higher altitudes?
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I'm sorry, I fell asleep on responding.

1) I don't pay the bills, my wife does. If it helps, she doesn't complain. The hull value has dropped, hangar is cheap at KHUT, and the maintenance labor is really cheap too. It's like any airplane, once you've caught up it's cheaper to keep it in good shape.

2) 9,000 ft cabin at 25,000. It's nice to show up and not feel like I've been up all night.
 
kmead said:
1) I don't pay the bills, my wife does. If it helps, she doesn't complain. The hull value has dropped, hangar is cheap at KHUT, and the maintenance labor is really cheap too. It's like any airplane, once you've caught up it's cheaper to keep it in good shape.
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So you don't know. My friends who've owned them have compared notes with me, and their costs are higher.

2) 9,000 ft cabin at 25,000. It's nice to show up and not feel like I've been up all night.
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Yes, but in a 310 you would probably be flying at 9,000 anyway...
 
I had a great time in my father's 310 when I was young. We had a stock 310L with the IO470 V engines. I would like to have it back. N2251F was in a fatal a number of years ago. Someone left a fuel line loose on a fresh engine. Fire and hitting the water on the maintenance flight finished the good ship off.

Every step in capability costs more. Being spoiled, I need the AC on the ground. Pressurization helped us get 350 kts groundspeed at 25,000 east bound to KMTN one winter. It was a killer coming home.
 
I still think Wayne had it right, get a nice local/regional use plane and go commercial long haul. I do a fair bit of cross continent in GA planes, and while I enjoy it, I doubt a large percentage of people would, there's a fair bit of discomfort at times, and if you're gonna be on a schedule, you'll either be taking significant risks on that route or miss a deadline here and there. Even commercial ops don't go some days...
 
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Henning said:
I still think Wayne had it right, get a nice local/regional use plane and go commercial long haul. I do a fair bit of cross continent in GA planes, and while I enjoy it, I doubt a large percentage of people would, there's a fair bit of discomfort at times, and if you're gonna be on a schedule, you'll either be taking significant risks on that route or miss a deadline here and there. Even commercial ops don't go some days...
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I find my reliability is far better than commercial, and I don't take undue risks.
 
Tom-D said:
sorry to say, but Japan has junked them too. They have seen their day, but they were a great old bird, that served you well.

You did take training in them didn't you?
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Yup -- 13 flights in all, according to my "Aviators Flight Log Book," between Feb 74 and Aug 74. I also ate a lot of "Tick 4 specials" at the gedunk in the VA-128 hangar. IIRC that involved a big Polish sausage, kraut, and some other fixin's (chili, maybe) on a hoagie roll -- real "gut bomb" of a lunch.
 
Alexb2000 said:
To the OP:

Flying commercial 5 people X $400 = $2000 x 6 trips per year = $12K.

Long distance major city to major city are the worst possible scenarios for GA.

Take that $200K invest at even 5% and you have almost paid for those tickets.
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Now put a value on the time and hassle of flying the airlines, including what you can't take with you, baggage limits (and the rapidly increasing baggage fees), getting electronically strip searched, and all the rest. Flying myself makes life a whole lot nicer, and at the end of the day, that's more important to me as long as I have the money to spend.

Please don't get your head in the clouds and fall for the "cheap" old pressurized twin lure. They are cheap for a reason, that is the poor bastard who owns it would likely pay someone to take it off his/her hands.
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Amen to that! The proposed annual budget ($20-35K) simply will not support such a plane even if the proposed purchase budget will buy one.
 
Ron Levy said:
Now put a value on the time and hassle of flying the airlines, including what you can't take with you, baggage limits (and the rapidly increasing baggage fees), getting electronically strip searched, and all the rest. Flying myself makes life a whole lot nicer, and at the end of the day, that's more important to me as long as I have the money to spend.
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Every pilot including myself would rather fly themselves, because we love to fly, and the challenges of this kind of trip just make it more interesting. In this case we're talking about a modest aviation budget and taking a family on a 1,200 NM trip 6X per year. This is a long day in any typical GA piston, especially if weather doesn't cooperate. I believe we owe it to the OP to do more than just say, "go for it".

Why not rent first and see how the trip goes for the family?
 
Alexb2000 said:
Why not rent first and see how the trip goes for the family?
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What are you going to rent? It's difficult to find places that will rent capable aircraft, if they even have them available. So that sounds like a charter, which ends up costing a good bit of money. And again, good luck finding one that has the aircraft that you're looking to try.

The OP needs to decide for himself if this is something he does want to do or not, and whether the family will agree to follow along. I know plenty of people whose families happily travel around the country in 310s and planes of similar speed. For that matter, I know someone who used to make frequent trips from CT to Phoenix in her Cherokee 180.

The bigger commitment is one to learning how to deal with the weather sufficiently to handle the trips. This takes time and experience, and probably is well-served by spending some good time in the plane with another pilot who knows how to deal with weather (not necessarily an instructor) and learn from them.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
What are you going to rent? It's difficult to find places that will rent capable aircraft, if they even have them available. So that sounds like a charter, which ends up costing a good bit of money. And again, good luck finding one that has the aircraft that you're looking to try.

The OP needs to decide for himself if this is something he does want to do or not, and whether the family will agree to follow along. I know plenty of people whose families happily travel around the country in 310s and planes of similar speed. For that matter, I know someone who used to make frequent trips from CT to Phoenix in her Cherokee 180.

The bigger commitment is one to learning how to deal with the weather sufficiently to handle the trips. This takes time and experience, and probably is well-served by spending some good time in the plane with another pilot who knows how to deal with weather (not necessarily an instructor) and learn from them.
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How about a Saratoga in Leesburg for $190 HR:

http://www.av-ed.com/leesburg

I missed it if the OP described their qualifications. If he needed some help, take an instructor.
 
Alexb2000 said:
How about a Saratoga in Leesburg for $190 HR:

http://www.av-ed.com/leesburg

I missed it if the OP described their qualifications. If he needed some help, take an instructor.
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That Saratoga looks like it would guarantee the family wouldn't want to make GA trips again. That's not exactly a capable aircraft, and definitely not fast.

Then you have to look at whether or not they'll even rent you the thing for that long a period of time.

The whole reason why people end up buying their own planes instead of renting is that it's hard to rent what you want.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
That Saratoga looks like it would guarantee the family wouldn't want to make GA trips again. That's not exactly a capable aircraft, and definitely not fast.

Then you have to look at whether or not they'll even rent you the thing for that long a period of time.

The whole reason why people end up buying their own planes instead of renting is that it's hard to rent what you want.
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How about:

http://www.atlantic-airways.com/aircraftfleet.html

They have a 1995 A36. Probably the most aircraft they're going to get for the budget.

Point is a little research and renting for one trip is nothing compared to the commitment of owning.
 
Rental cost is chump change compared to owning, and every buyer would be smart (or at least smarter, if such is possible when contemplating an airplane purchase) to do so prior to writing the check. I picked up an A36 in Newark area for a Dallas-based owner and flew it home a couple years back. Plenty fine airplane, but less than wonderful trip of 1,100 NM against 25-30 knot component all the way home. Groan.

Alexb2000 said:
How about:

http://www.atlantic-airways.com/aircraft fleet.html

They have a 1995 A36. Probably the most aircraft they're going to get for the budget.

Point is a little research and renting for one trip is nothing compared to the commitment of owning.
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Ted DuPuis said:
I find my reliability is far better than commercial, and I don't take undue risks.
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My experience is the same, however what other people view my operational activities as is always open for discussion. I just happen to calculate my risks differently than some...:D That is their prerogative, that is part of being PIC for real.
 
wabower said:
Rental cost is chump change compared to owning, and every buyer would be smart (or at least smarter, if such is possible when contemplating an airplane purchase) to do so prior to writing the check. I picked up an A36 in Newark area for a Dallas-based owner and flew it home a couple years back. Plenty fine airplane, but less than wonderful trip of 1,100 NM against 25-30 knot component all the way home. Groan.
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Yep, that's why I fly next to the ground going to weather with strong winds, lots less speed lost.
 
Difference in wind speed is often minimal at altitudes below ~6k. My altitude selection criteria includes bump avoidance, especially on long trips.

Henning said:
Yep, that's why I fly next to the ground going to weather with strong winds, lots less speed lost.
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wabower said:
Difference in wind speed is often minimal at altitudes below ~6k. My altitude selection criteria includes bump avoidance, especially on long trips.
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Depends on the terrain for wind speed, sometimes there's a big diff between 25' and 100'; best of my experience on windy days like that you aren't getting away from bumps regardless the altitude.
 
It's not an all-or-none decision. But then again, I have an autopilot.

Henning said:
Depends on the terrain for wind speed, sometimes there's a big diff between 25' and 100'; best of my experience on windy days like that you aren't getting away from bumps regardless the altitude.
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Ron Levy said:
Wimp.
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Look, someone has to fly the plane. Since Wayne is older than dirt, he probably had an easier time getting a special issuance for the AP. ;)
 
If you look at cost, by a block of tickets from Airtran or Southwest, take the family , take all your savings( in the hundreds of thousands) ,go buy yourself a J-3 to get the flying thing out of your system and invest all the money you save for your retirement.
Commercial is a safe ,cheap,fast trip, GA is more of an ego trip :)
 
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