Which aircraft? Any help appreciated

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hockeydude180

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mcclune18
Hi there,
I have recently just started my training for my PPL(A).
Today I am posting for advice more than anything, and I would be grateful if you could help me out!

My first 9 hours have been on a Cessna 152 and a Piper PA-28 Warrior.

I have since heard that flying taildraggers is a lot more challenging and takes more finesse to fly and handle overall, as it teaches you finesse, coordination and accuracy.

Unfortunately there are no taildragger aircraft belonging to my club and the only ones at my airfield are privately owned.

This leads me on to my problem. I want to be the best pilot that I can be and I want to learn how to fly an aircraft that will teach me the foundations of flying, such as attitude, airspeed and coordinated flight awareness, and an overall 'feeling' from the aircraft for these things. Basically how to fly instinctively.

I have found that the 152 is quite docile in the air and there is not much adverse yaw in turns etc, so I am constantly looking at the slid/slip ball to see if I am coordinated in turns and in level flight also, as I have not been taught/shown how to 'feel' these things through the seat of my pants.

I have also heard that taildraggers and vintage aircraft allow you to become a much better pilot and a better handling pilot, and that is what I want to be!

Basically I want to be able to fly a plane and have it handle purely on my inputs as a pilot, like the pilots in the early days of aviation and have an awareness and a 'feel' for the aircraft as they did, without looking at the instruments too much, or having the plane handle all of the adverse effects through clever engineering and design work!

Essentially I want to go back to the basic, old fashioned flying skills of early aviators!

After all that introduction, my main question is this : what is the best plane for me to fly to develop these skills?

Should I talk to my instructor and get him to teach me in more depth about co ordinated flight and a feel for the aircraft etc? And would aerobatic lessons help me develop the above skills?


Thank you for your time and help!
 
Who says you training has to stop after getting your private certificate? Get your private in whatever plane(s) are available, then go get some tailwheel training wherever afterwards. Once off the ground tailwheels pretty much fly the same as trikes. Now if you really want to focus on coordinated flight, go fly seaplanes. You will use the rudder in the air with those way more that a tailwheel.
 
Sounds like you have a good attitude and are willing to learn the stick and rudder basics and not just "drive" an airplane around the sky from point A to B.

As for the two planes you listed, I trained and taught in 152s and Warriors, plus many others. I think the 152 is better at teaching coordination skills, both are very easy to fly, but I think the 152 is lighter and requires more control input at times.
The Cessna is better at slips and more like the small lighter taildraggers like the Cub and Champ.
Learn all you can, including slips, practice X-winds until you have them down, you'll need those skills for taildraggers. If and when you get a chance to fly in other planes, jump at the chance and learn from them too.

Let us know how you're doing and any other questions you will have.
 
Training from the start in tailwheel is a huge advantage, I did the same thing in a 7AC and later instructed folks from 0 time to CPL level I'm 7ECAs, the difference between them and 172 students was very apparent.

Another option, one I wish I had done, would be to get your PPL in a gilder, then the easy power add on after.



Here's a locator to find glider schools

http://www.ssa.org/WhereToFly
 
You will also need to find a good tailwheel instructor and that is almost as difficult as finding an airplane. You are correct in that learning in a classic tailwheel airplane will give much better stick and rudder skills than the modern trainers. A good example is a Cessna 140 is a very easy airplane to fly but difficult to fly with precision. Compared to a 150 it has lots of adverse yaw and a very sensitive rudder. Most of the classic trainers like a 140, Champ, Chief etc can be had in the $20,000 range and are cheap and simple to maintain. Also take a good 5 hour basic aerobatic course when you are training or shortly after you get your PPL. Don
 
Hi guys,
Thanks so much for your help so far!
Basically what I'm after is an aircraft that will teach me how to fly 'by the seat of my pants' rather than constantly looking at the inclinometer!
Also, what is the best way to ensure the plane is coordinated whilst in straight and level flight? Is a reference point the best way or is there a feeling to that too?
Thanks!
 
I own and fly a tailwheel but for getting a pilots license a nosewheel aircraft usually works out better. Talk to some instructors. A 152, 172, Cherokee will all work great. Keep it simple. No need to make it any more complicated than it is.
 
Seat of the pants flying, try the back seat in a Cub or Champ, with an instructor in front you won't be able to see most of the instruments let alone the slip/skid instrument. Both planes have lots of adverse yaw and in the back seat you'll feel if you're coordinated.
You shouldn't be looking at the slip/skid constantly, just checking it on occasion while maneuvering, keep your head mostly outside.

Coordinated in flight is normally thought of in turns and such, I'm not sure what you mean while straight and level.
Straight and level is kind of sitting there and making small corrections, rudder and aileron. Are you talking about how to judge if you are holding a constant pitch for an altitude and are the wings level?
 
Sorry about my lack of knowledge on this ChampDriver!
What I mean is making sure that the aircraft is pointing straight in one direction, so not flying slightly side on to the direction of travel
 
Look at the ball in the center of the slip/skid, or in modern planes the turn coordinator.
On smaller planes there won't be any adjustable rudder trim, just a fixed tab on the rudder, and you may have to hold some slight rudder pressure to hold the ball in the center in the climb and some slight opposite rudder in a descent.

Most small planes have some amount of vertical fin offset that's built in at the factory and adjusted for normal cruise.
A Cessna 182 has rudder trim and you can adjust that in flight for different times when you need it.

When you fly different planes, even of the same model, you may find one needs more trim or rudder than the other plane. It's all because the planes may be rigged slightly different from each other.
 
Thanks for useful inputs to those of you who helped.
iHenning, I have no desire to fly anything ultra modern at all, in fact, I'd love to go extremely basic, that's what this post is about
 
hockeydude180 said:
Thanks for useful inputs to those of you who helped.
iHenning, I have no desire to fly anything ultra modern at all, in fact, I'd love to go extremely basic, that's what this post is about
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Eipper Quicksilver MXII with a set of amphibs. New price is less than a ragged out 152 or Champ, dirt simple, cheap to keep running, engine overhauls are 5% the cost of a 152. If you want to 'fly', and not 'get somewhere', If you don't need a second seat, there is the MX. If you want a windshield there is the GT-400 & GT-500 series from Eipper. You want extreme basic, it doesn't get any more extreme basic, and Eipper has been around since the beginning of the ultralight movement and make a quality product. You can get a good used rig for $7-10k as well.
 
Blueangel said:
no, he is planning to finish his PPL in an L-39!
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Henning said:
Pfft, few dollars more and you can do it in a Mig 21. Learning wth an after burner makes you a better pilot.
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:rofl::rofl::rofl:


hockeydude180 said:
Thanks for useful inputs to those of you who helped.
iHenning, I have no desire to fly anything ultra modern at all, in fact, I'd love to go extremely basic, that's what this post is about
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Tailwheel and Spin training was some of the best money I have have spent on training and highly recommend it. More so than the stick and rudder skills your confidence in the air and with the plane will go way up. I was in your boat I had to travel 5hrs and stay in a hotel for a few days to get my training worth evry minute and penny spent.

Welcome to the forum!!
 
hockeydude180 said:
Sorry about my lack of knowledge on this ChampDriver!
What I mean is making sure that the aircraft is pointing straight in one direction, so not flying slightly side on to the direction of travel
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With wind, you will often fly at an angle. Think of it like crossing a river in a boat. If you aim directly at a dock on the other side, you will end up somewhere downstream, so you point upstream (into the current) to reach your desired point.

It's the same with planes. Last weekend it was quite windy, and on final I had 35-40° of correction. Runway 04, the DG was hovering around 040. The lower I came, the wind slackened and there was very little correction angle when I crossed the fence.

I've looked out the passenger window once to see where I was going . . .

You will learn to feel coordination during your training. It will be very obvious when you are doing slips. Remember the feel, it should only be there when you do something on purpose, otherwise your rudder feet are asleep on the floor. :nono:
 
You hear a lot of stuff - much of it is total B.S.

I learned to fly in a '46 Cessna 120. It was no big deal at all. The hard part was to get that early Cessna spring gear to not give you a bounce - keeping it straight was easy. Now, it appears that those who started out with a nose wheel have more problems with the transition to a tailwheel than those that start out with the tailwheel, but if you think that flying a tailwheel makes you some kind of superior pilot, well, then, you ain't never rode with me...

I will say that flying some old thing with lots of adverse yaw quickly teaches you to get your feet in the game and that does seem to stick with you - even after 30+ years. (When I got my re-tread, the instructor commented that he really liked what I was doing with my feet - I wasn't aware that I was doing anything. :) ) So, as someone who has never flown a glider, I would suggest spending some time in one to tune up yea olde toes if you can't find an old POS taildragger to fly locally.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
You hear a lot of stuff - much of it is total B.S.

I learned to fly in a '46 Cessna 120. It was no big deal at all. The hard part was to get that early Cessna spring gear to not give you a bounce - keeping it straight was easy. Now, it appears that those who started out with a nose wheel have more problems with the transition to a tailwheel than those that start out with the tailwheel, but if you think that flying a tailwheel makes you some kind of superior pilot, well, then, you ain't never rode with me...

I will say that flying some old thing with lots of adverse yaw quickly teaches you to get your feet in the game and that does seem to stick with you - even after 30+ years. (When I got my re-tread, the instructor commented that he really liked what I was doing with my feet - I wasn't aware that I was doing anything. :) ) So, as someone who has never flown a glider, I would suggest spending some time in one to tune up yea olde toes if you can't find an old POS taildragger to fly locally.
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A glider with an afterburner...
 
coloradobluesky said:
I own and fly a tailwheel but for getting a pilots license a nosewheel aircraft usually works out better. Talk to some instructors. A 152, 172, Cherokee will all work great. Keep it simple. No need to make it any more complicated than it is.
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What's complicated about learning to fly in a taildragger? Seemed pretty easy to me.
 
Welcome to the forum, Mcclune18.

What are you planning to do with your flying once you have your certificate?

My advice is to keep flying the 152 (that will work better for achieving what you want) since there are no tail draggers near you. The best way, in my opinion, to learn coordination is to look out the windows when you are turning (or going straight for that matter). Trying exercises like Dutch Rolls helps. Watch the nose as you feed in aileron and you can see the adverse yaw that the rudder can cancel out. A 152 has that adverse yaw just like a Champ, only maybe not as much. If you focus on what the airplane is doing, sit up straight (i.e. don't lean with the turns -- keep you body lined up with the center of your seat) you will soon see what everyone is talking about. Look out each side and see if you have the wings level. Stay on the centerline when you are landing.
 
Henning said:
Nothing, it just isn't as forgiving of mistakes or poor technique on the ground.
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There is little to compare flying a 152 or say a champ if your a student. One can get checked , for instance, out in a champ if they already have a ppl quite easily. Getting checked out in it and flying it in a good crosswind is an altogether different proposition. It's also why one can get checked out in a Stearman but then try and get someone to rent you one, or even a champ without a careful check of your abilitys . Or get out of a 182 and jump in a 180 and see how you do without a careful checkout by an experienced taildragger instructor. It's all well and good until one arrives at the field with a single runway and a direct 15 mph crosswind. That's when all the b.s. Comes to a halt. If you still think it's no big deal, jump in a cessna 195 on a gusty day and take a stroll. Good luck!
 
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Blah blah blah, I've got as many hours with one gear set as the other. The planes do the exact same things with the exact same inputs. If you can't fly a taildragger for ****, you can't fly a tricycle for **** either. The tail dragger just punishes you more for your failure.
 
Henning said:
Blah blah blah, I've got as many hours with one gear set as the other. The planes do the exact same things with the exact same inputs. If you can't fly a taildragger for ****, you can't fly a tricycle for **** either. The tail dragger just punishes you more for your failure.
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Henning you must be related to mr. Trump! I can fly both very well. Of course not a Stearman in a snowstorm in zero weather like you but quite well. I stand by what I say . The " punishment" is much more severe in a taildragger including a ground loop and most of the time expensive repairs. In addition, in 4000 hours I've " never forgotten " to put the gear down. The old saying in the Air Force was "five lbs. of .....in a two pound bag" . You win the trophy.
 
What's complicated about getting a PPL in a taildragger is finding a plane, instructor and DE that will do it. If you can find an instructor that has a taildragger and is getting his students through the DE to PPL, go for it.

Just because you did it in ought six doesnt mean its doable today. You gotta train in whats available to train in.
 
You have an excellent attitude to your training, mcclune18.

Any airplane can teach you these things, but some are better at it. Of the two you named, I'd pick the C152 any day.

Where are you located? Someone might be able to recommend a good tailwheel school near you.
 
I had the same attitude that the OP did when I learned to fly...22 years ago...
Now looking back I realize: whats the hurry? Take it a little bit at a time, slow down, learn it right. I DO have a TW endorsement now, but now I'm thankful I did not get my PPL in a TW...biting off too much too fast.
Oh, and I've run the gamut in my ownership/previous ownership...from a tomahawk, to a tailwheel taylorcraft, to a high performance experimental, and now back to a simple 150 similar to the first plane I rented...lol
 
Thanks again to everybody for your help!
What are you planning to do with your flying once you have your certificate?
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Currently I am looking to continue on to ATPL and fly commercially, but still remain a member at my local flying club to continue flying as a hobby, and possibly purchase my own aircraft in the future.
 
The old saying in the Air Force was "five lbs. of .....in a two pound bag" . You win the trophy.
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Well said Jim!
You have an excellent attitude to your training, mcclune18.
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Thanks Stearman! :)
Where are you located? Someone might be able to recommend a good tailwheel school near you.
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i'm currently located in Northern Ireland, there are a good few tailwheel aircraft here but no instructors (as far as I am aware).
 
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