Where can I find POH for different aircrafts?

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rs013

Filing Flight Plan
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Rob13
I am a GA enthusiast, aspiring to become a pilot (planning to start my training next summer when I save up). I have been hanging out on the blogs and forums trying to learn as much information about what is involved and find best resources.

I have been very impressed by the pilots' community, its responsiveness and willingness to help. I also have been hanging out with my friend who is a pilot and who got me hooked this past summer flying me to Lake Almanor. Talking about flying prep, I was quite surprised by the lack of useful tools. I mean there are tools out there but they are not polished, cumbersome to use and hardly any is properly maintained. Hence we decided to change that and began to create some of these starting with flight calculator. Please check it out, we would love your feedback. We are definitely ready to listen and learn.

One hurdle we hit right from the start is finding Pilot's Operating Handbook (POH) for the planes that we would like to support within the tool. We only have 172S as that is the POH that my friend has access to because he flies that plane. We need POH in order to perform the flight calculations. If anyone knows where we can get copies of POH for other planes, sharing that info would be greatly appreciated.

Rob
 
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Yep, did that but what comes up is either obsolete, incomplete or costs money.
 
Good work on the interface. Very modern.

I'm not sure what the goal of the site is, but it may be more beneficial to ask users for performance information. POH data is with a brand new airplane, under optimal conditions, at ISA.

I could give you the POH numbers for the plane I fly, but any information that's derived from it would be useless to me, as the plane does not perform to those numbers. Varying weights, engine and airframe mods, aircraft age and condition, and many other factors will affect the numbers for an airplane.

I learned this recently when I planned a cross-country flight based on POH data. That navigation log pretty much went out the window when I realized that the plane had no chance of reaching the true airspeed I expected it to.

You could provide templates to start from, based on POH data, but if it were me, I'd definitely rely primarily on user input.

http://www.redskyventures.org/free_stuff.php

If you need a reason to pick a particular one, try "Cessna 172 C172M 1975 Owners Manual scanned pilotinside" That's the closest one to the plane I fly.
 
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rs013 said:
Yep, did that but what comes up is either obsolete, incomplete or costs money.
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Well, yeah. I guess you are getting your money's worth.

Essco has printed manuals, but it'll cost.
http://www.esscoaircraft.com/c-2401-civilian-aircraft.aspx

Do you just need cruising speeds and fuel consumption numbers? That kind of thing you can probably find on the web, but you'll have to search for each specific plane you are interested in.
 
So far I see this just another iteration of some already invented wheels.

Maybe more is needed to be shared with what your ultimate goal is, but ATM, I don't understand the real usefulness.
 
Be careful about providing numbers to pilots. Let them supply the numbers, you do the calculations.
 
There are plenty of tools for this. ForeFlight, fltplan.com, aopa.org flight planning. I do not see what this offers above that.
 
bartmc said:
Be careful about providing numbers to pilots. Let them supply the numbers, you do the calculations.
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I agree with this.

Depending on the pilot they will want to cruise at different power settings, throwing of your speeds and fuel burn. So I think it would be much better if you let the pilot provide the numbers, it would also make things a lot easier for you as you will not need to research every plane.
I'd recommend instead of the aircraft type using the cruise speed and fuel burn rate, if you want it even more accurate add an option to type in climb speed, rate of climb, and rate of descend.
 
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Be careful about posting POHs without the permission of the manufacturer.

The POH is, legally, the intellectual property of the author (ie. the manufacturer), and duplication without consent is a copyright infringement and subject to imposition of statutory damages for civil infringement of from $750 - $150,000 per infringing work. Statutory damages do not require the party who has been infringed to prove any damages whatsoever in order to collect.
 
Thank you. This is very valuable feedback and POH references. I see the point about POH numbers being plane's factory performance numbers. Creating concept of "my plane" with pilot configurable profile which would then drive the calculation is something we are definitely thinking of adding.

As per not having value in what we've created, we've only started. Our goal is to create things pilots would find very useful while at the same time making it as simple as possible to use and accessible. IMHO, the links mentioned are not examples of that and only cover one aspect what we hope to address for pilots.

The calculator idea was born out of what we experienced when I asked my pilot friend to do a flight trip with me to Lake Almanor. He spent good 30 minutes figuring out the flight plan and how much it will roughly cost -- we rented the plane and I wanted to know how much will this cost. Sure, the calculator is a rough guesstimate, assuming ideal conditions, but I/he can have that ballpark answer today in 30 seconds.

Being able to see which other pilots are taking those routes, what flight resources there may be on the ground at the origin to take advantage of and their cost, options to automatically link up with both -- these are things that get me excited and I think would be a joy to have at pilot's fingertips and fun to use. Do you agree? What are the things you would love to see?
 
MultiMediaWill said:
The POH can be and must be found inside the aircraft.
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Usually, behind the pilot seat :)

Actually, one FBO I know keeps them behind the counter (with the W&B paperwork). You pick them up with the keys. While it is handy to have for your preflight planning, I suspect their major reason is to make sure the POH doesn't mysteriously disappear over the course of a dozen renters a day.
 
denverpilot said:
And the book thing sold at the counter of the FBO isn't a legal POH.
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Even places like Essco where I buy a copy for myself since I'm a renter. I think it's a PIM (Pilot's Information Manual) or something. Yeah, the official POH goes with the plane.
 
Thanks for everyone's feedback. We will be adding ability for a pilot to change the factory numbers for each plane and save it as your personal plane profile. Things you will be able to set in your plane profile will be cruise speed and fuel burn rate, For more accuracy, we will add an option to type in climb speed, rate of climb, and rate of descend.

Please sign up to get an update when these features are available. We appreciate your input to create something useful for pilots to use.
 
rs013 said:
Yep, did that but what comes up is either obsolete, incomplete or costs money.
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Then look harder.

Most of us fly 30+ year old aircraft, so 30+ year old data is not obsolete.

I've been able to find scanned POHs for every model aircraft I've even considered flying. Not necessarily year-correct, but close.

It's not correct to a specific airframe, but if you're putting a calculator online, you're not connected to a specific airframe, either.

The earlier comment that the tables only work at ISA is not correct. Every POH gives performance numbers for a variety of temperatures. And the book numbers are close to reality, or the aircraft needs an overhaul. I don't have a problem with that on a well maintained aircraft.
 
I miss nav monster. I can and do get all of the same info from foreflight, before I knew how to change speeds, it was easier to use nav monster. I like what you have done so far! I suspect the biggest value will be to you. I am guessing that all of the time you have put into it has taught you where the numbers used in flight planning come from and it will make the flght planning portion of your training easy. Even if your planner never goes anywhere, keep working on it for the knowledge you will gain.

Jim
 
Re: Where can I find POH for different aircraft?

MAKG1 said:
I've been able to find scanned POHs for every model aircraft I've even considered flying. Not necessarily year-correct, but close.
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For example, on my flying club's aircraft list, you can click on the tail number, and the page for each one has a button that takes you to the POH.

http://www.wvfc.org/aircraft
 
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The calculator doesn't know KAPA... That's a good sign that your ICAO airport data is incorrect.
 
Thank you. This definitely helped me understand all the number dependencies when operating a plane. It also uncovered all the other details that you guys mentioned that I did not think of. The theory is of course only theory and the real flying experience that you guys bring to the table is simply amazing to me. Can't wait to begin getting some of my own.

Based on the feedback received, I am working on the revision with rough outline attached. I'll also check KAPA -- thank you for catching that. I took the list directly from the most recent FAA listing so that is strange. I am adding a blog to the site where I hope to share the progress and listen to valuable input.

Rob

myplane01.png
 
That's a pretty nice setup you built.

Since I'm a renter, something that also kicks into the estimated costs are the taxi, startup, runup times. Just calculating times and distances between fixed points is one thing, but I always have to add another 0.2 or so to account for ground ops. Maybe in one of the settings you can add a "estimated ground ops time per flight" to account for that.
 
Great point! Will do, but probably a check box to turn on/off as I know for some class planes the club may charge only for airtime.
 
denverpilot said:
The calculator doesn't know KAPA... That's a good sign that your ICAO airport data is incorrect.
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It appears like you or your data feed dropped the leading character - the international identifier? APA is there, KAPA is not; BJC is there, KBJC is not ...
 
Yep, that's it! APA is KAPA. JBC is KJBC. Not sure why my list has it named APA and BJC. I am working on supporting fuzzy search so that no matter what characters you type, it will show each result that contain those letters anywhere in its name.
 
rs013 said:
Yep, that's it! APA is KAPA. JBC is KJBC. Not sure why my list has it named APA and BJC. I am working on supporting fuzzy search so that no matter what characters you type, it will show each result that contain those letters anywhere in its name.
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Might want to think that through a bit. IATA codes are not unique. Go look up TIP, for instance.

Just use the ICAO code. Pilots know how to use them. The "K" trick also works only in the lower 48.
 
It's reinventing the wheel, but nice slick interface. 3M has made Billions by improving existing products. I would put a disclaimer that the tool is for information only and not for actual flight planning. This way when some DA runs out of gas using your tool you stand a chance in a lawsuit.
 
It is the early days and as I learn more about flying, I want to add tools that will be increasingly useful and quite unique. But you are right, the main goal for the project is to create useful but simple and elegant interface that pilots will enjoy bookmarking and using.

Great point regarding the disclaimer -- I will add. Thanks!
 
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