When is it Fair Game to Request a Refund?

kontiki

kontiki

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Kontiki
Just heard a story about someone that rented a G1000 equipped DA-40 for several days, and had an alternator failure enroute.

He put it down someplace (reasonable with 1/2 hr power for glass displays) and called the called the FBO to tell them where they could find the plane.

Later he demanded a refund.

I've dealt with occational equipment failures before, and for one reason or another, haven't felt the need to ask for a refund, but am now wondering if I've been too easy.

What's usually considered fair and reasonable?
 
You still have to pay for your flying time, but fixing the plane/getting it back home is up to them. If you had to return to the airport right at the start of your trip, you probably wouldn't be charged anything, but if you flew several hrs before the problem, then I would think you would still have to pay for it.
 
Need more information. I would think if he was at the end of his trip and was headed home, then all he is due is the money it cost him to get back home. On the other hand if he was just starting the trip and this happened then he would be due everything back. I would wonder whether the rental agreement covers just these situations and whether it is spelled out in the agreement.
 
I'm not sure that there's much of a case for a refund on consumed rental flight time, but if the aircraft becomes disabled away from home through no fault of the renter, the FBO should be on the hook for the expense of retrieval and repair. There would also likely be justification for the FBO to cover the expense of retrieving you if you are stranded by one of their disabled aircraft..

I've been stranded twice by rental aircraft, both times due to engine problems discovered just before departure. One case was approximately 100 miles from home, and the other case was perhaps 20 miles from home. In both cases, the FBO dispatched another aircraft to pick me up and fly me home, and did not charge for the ferry flight for the disabled aircraft or the pickup, but did charge for the actual flying time that I consumed in the rental aircraft. That was many years ago, however, so I'm not sure what standard practice is today.


JKG
 
As a renter, my view is that I'm responsible for paying for what I used. If I do something to get an airplane stuck somewhere, I'm responsible for the cost to get it back to "base". If something is "wrong" with the plane at any point, I'm going to first do what's safe (get on the ground), and then let the owner know what's happened. If it were a situation like you describe, I'd let them deal with getting the aircraft back home, but I might not even hold them "responsible" for getting me home. Flying light aircraft, there's simply a risk you get stuck somewhere ("time to spare, go by air"). I certainly wouldn't ask for a refund. That's me though.

And I have had a situation where 20 minutes into a trip to Gaston's the RPM gauge went wonky on a 172 and I turned around (all other parameters looked normal, but played it safe). I didn't and wouldn't ask for a refund under such circumstances. Things happen.
 
JGoodish said:
There would also likely be justification for the FBO to cover the expense of retrieving you if you are stranded by one of their disabled aircraft..
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Disagree. Whatever it costs you to get home is probably less than what it would have cost to fly the plane home. I see that as a "push" and would not try to claim my expenses from the point of failure to home. It's a matter of "equity" as the lawyers use that term -- if you aren't worse for the difference in cost from that point home, then you have no "tort".
 
If I am stranded I pay the cost of getting home. And the cost of retrieving the plane. And the cost of repairs. And the hostile nagging by my wife over the expenses.
A lose-lose-lose. :D
 
Dr. O said:
If I am stranded I pay the cost of getting home. And the cost of retrieving the plane. And the cost of repairs. And the hostile nagging by my wife over the expenses.
A lose-lose-lose. :D
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Then sell your plane and start renting again.
 
Some FBO's would put you on the hook to get a broken plane back to the point of rental. Not saying it's right, but some do.
 
Be careful when you sign the rental agreement, as this situation may be covered in it. Some places will charge the difference between what it would cost to fix at home vs. fixing it on the road. I've seen this in a couple of contracts.

I would fully expect to pay for the time I flew. As for recovery, I would not expect to pay for the direct expense. I wouldn't expect reimburment for indirect expenses such as meals and lodging, if required. When I was instructing at a flying club in the 1980's, it was a perk to get to go out and retrieve broken planes. I loved it when the owner took the twin :D
 
jonnyjetprop said:
Be careful when you sign the rental agreement, as this situation may be covered in it. Some places will charge the difference between what it would cost to fix at home vs. fixing it on the road. I've seen this in a couple of contracts.

I would fully expect to pay for the time I flew. As for recovery, I would not expect to pay for the direct expense. I wouldn't expect reimburment for indirect expenses such as meals and lodging, if required. When I was instructing at a flying club in the 1980's, it was a perk to get to go out and retrieve broken planes. I loved it when the owner took the twin :D
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BTDT, I didn't log it but I took a nice long flight to Louisiana in a Seneca to get the passengers from out old Navajo (reactive maintenance per the owner)

Now that we have a new plane with proactive maintenance I haven't had to do that, and my most recent rescue missions have been flat tires after normal hours.
 
Skylane81E said:
BTDT, I didn't log it but I took a nice long flight to Louisiana in a Seneca to get the passengers from out old Navajo (reactive maintenance per the owner)

Now that we have a new plane with proactive maintenance I haven't had to do that, and my most recent rescue missions have been flat tires after normal hours.
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Charter is also a bit different than rental. I know in our ops manual we were required to help our clients get to their destination to the greatest extent practical if we had maintenance failures.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Charter is also a bit different than rental. I know in our ops manual we were required to help our clients get to their destination to the greatest extent practical if we had maintenance failures.
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True, but we have done the same with rentals, they use don't tend to get so far afield.
 
madtrader said:
As a renter, my view is that I'm responsible for paying for what I used. If I do something to get an airplane stuck somewhere, I'm responsible for the cost to get it back to "base". If something is "wrong" with the plane at any point, I'm going to first do what's safe (get on the ground), and then let the owner know what's happened. If it were a situation like you describe, I'd let them deal with getting the aircraft back home, but I might not even hold them "responsible" for getting me home. Flying light aircraft, there's simply a risk you get stuck somewhere ("time to spare, go by air"). I certainly wouldn't ask for a refund. That's me though.

Things happen.
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I would completely agree with this, with one exception --- the situation is not limited to just light aircraft.
 
Skylane81E said:
True, but we have done the same with rentals, they use don't tend to get so far afield.
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Agreed.

I think it really depends on a lot of things. If the rental place handles it well, I wouldn't expect a refund. Planes break, so do cars.

Now if they tried to charge me for the retrieval and repair, I'd then demand a refund.
 
I rented a 172 out of ADS years ago and the vacuum pump went TU (no more gyro) on my trip outbound. Nice VFR, nonissue - but weather moved in before my return trip and I had to spend an extra day on the ground for good enough VFR to fly it home without a gyro. The guy at the desk tried to charge me the minimum 4 hours per day for the extra day until I explained the reason, then they dropped it. They were just happy I brought the airplane back in one piece rather than them having to go get it.
 
Ron Levy said:
Disagree. Whatever it costs you to get home is probably less than what it would have cost to fly the plane home. I see that as a "push" and would not try to claim my expenses from the point of failure to home. It's a matter of "equity" as the lawyers use that term -- if you aren't worse for the difference in cost from that point home, then you have no "tort".
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That's quite an assumption on your part. There are many variables, but I wouldn't have to be that far from home for the expense of acquiring a rental car (or commercial flight) to exceed the flight time in a rental, plus the value of any additional time required to reach my destination. And that only assumes that it's ME and no other passengers or cargo that need special transport consideration. The situation could very likely be more than just a simple calculation of the cost of the additional flight time.


JKG
 
JGoodish said:
That's quite an assumption on your part. There are many variables, but I wouldn't have to be that far from home for the expense of acquiring a rental car (or commercial flight) to exceed the flight time in a rental, plus the value of any additional time required to reach my destination. And that only assumes that it's ME and no other passengers or cargo that need special transport consideration. The situation could very likely be more than just a simple calculation of the cost of the additional flight time.


JKG
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Exactly. Say someone flies from Indianapolis up to our airport for a weekend in the UP. There's 3 people in the 182 they fly up. A 182 rents for about, what, $130/hr. It's a 4 hour flight back. That's what, $520 total? Expedia shows that a Sunday flight to get back to IND runs $522/person. Oh yeah, and that's after they have to pay for a cab to come out from Sawyer which is 76 miles one way. What do you think a 150 mile round trip in a cab runs? Plus the $522 x 3 to get home for work by Monday morning. Oh yeah, it's way cheaper to fly the airlines.

We could try a one way car rental, but alas...

"No cars are available at this location for your selected dates and/or times. Please change either the location or dates and try again."




Seems like Ron needs a refresher course in math.
 
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If the plane F'd up and t was foreseeable to the FBO, ie kept havin to go to the shop to fix and replace the alternator, but the issue was never resolved, Johnny Q takes the plane up for a x-country and 1hr in has a electrical failure, that's refund all day long and twice on Sundays IMO
 
The only time I have refused to pay was in a Duchess notorious for problems. We scrubbed a flight for the left prop governor not functioning correctly. They "fixed" it over the course of a week, and I was the first renter after it was released. Problem was exactly the same as before. I felt I shouldn't pay for that .2, and FBO fully agreed with me.

Sent via teletype
 
One might want to read 91.213 before you do the FBO a favor by flying a plane home with inoperative equipment.
 
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If the pilot causes the disablement like a hard landing then they are responsible for retrieval .usually stated in the rental agreement.On a breakdown the fbo is usually responsible to get the aircraft and cover repairs.there seems to be no standard for what happens to the pilot and who covers cost.
 
I've never been asked to pay for the Hobbs time when you never even took off because of maintainence.



cheap weenie said:
The only time I have refused to pay was in a Duchess notorious for problems. We scrubbed a flight for the left prop governor not functioning correctly. They "fixed" it over the course of a week, and I was the first renter after it was released. Problem was exactly the same as before. I felt I shouldn't pay for that .2, and FBO fully agreed with me.

Sent via teletype
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I do not charge students if we don't leave the ground and neither does the business we rent the planes from.
 
jesse said:
I do not charge students if we don't leave the ground and neither does the business we rent the planes from.
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I'm not sure we have it written down but generally that is how we have done it.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
If the plane F'd up and t was foreseeable to the FBO, ie kept havin to go to the shop to fix and replace the alternator, but the issue was never resolved, Johnny Q takes the plane up for a x-country and 1hr in has a electrical failure, that's refund all day long and twice on Sundays IMO
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Problem is, the Kelly alternators on the DA40s go without any advance notice. I know because mine did not too long ago. 28.4v or whatever it was dropped to 26.5v then back to 28.4v and 20 seconds later it was dead as dead gets. Kelly brushes tend to wear in anywhere between 1000 to 1500 hrs, and there's no service instruction to go with it.

What's missing in the story is the FBO response and how they handled the situation overall.

I'd probably stay overnight while the alternator's in the mail, have it swapped out and expect a credit (or a major discount) from the FBO for my time
 
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I rented the C172 this afternoon for some crosswind practice... winds 20, gusting to 27. I have my PPL but hadn't flown in significant wind for a while so brought my CFI along. Shortly after takeoff, at about 600' AGL, the alternator failed... We were already in place for a downwind, so I just called tower for a return to the field, taxied in and shut down.

I paid for the time... airplane and CFI. Cheapest invoice I have ever paid there... <$100. :)
 
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