When do you really have permission to enter Bravo airspace?

EdFred

EdFred

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On my last foray into Bravo airspace I was given a different definition of when.

Discuss.
 
I'm gonna let a few experts chime in before I give out the new definition I received, and it ain't 91.131
 
The controlling authority for the airspace; around here (for example), it would be Regional Approach, or any other controlling agency which, by letter of agreement, had authority to do so (example: Addison Tower can).
 
Depends on where your at, coming in from over parleys summit in SLC you contact tower, but mostly it will be approach that will issue it. As in "mooney 7844m cleared into class bravo"

Who did you try that didn't work?
 
Well apparently GRR can clear me through CVGs airspace.

I filed direct from 9D9 to SRQ, which took me just east of CVG's runways at 9k. I called up GRR after departing Hastings and was cleared as filed. Now I've done this many times through DTW and CLE, and they have always given me "the magic words," so as I get closer to CVG I am awaiting either 1) a reroute, which I know is going to happen, because they are landing N/S, and I'm right through the departure corridor, or 2) let me know I'm cleared through the Bravo.

I'm 5 minutes from penetration:

"7DS, just want to verify I am cleared through the Bravo"
"Are you IFR?"
"Yes"
"You don't need clearance if IFR."
"I'm not used to that, I fly near Chicago"

The only thing CVG had said to me prior to that was an altimeter setting upon handoff.
 
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EdFred said:
Any ATC not just the controlling agency?

(no LoA in this case either)
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Literally per the regulation it could only be the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that area, but in practice that's not followed for IFR aircraft. Smallville approach can issue an IFR clearance that penetrates the Metropolis Class B airspace and there's no foul.
 
roncachamp said:
Literally per the regulation it could only be the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that area, but in practice that's not followed for IFR aircraft. Smallville approach can issue an IFR clearance that penetrates the Metropolis Class B airspace and there's no foul.
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Which, as you can see is what happened. But 91.131 was not followed.
 
EdFred said:
Well apparently GRR can clear me through CVGs airspace.

I filed direct from 9D9 to SRQ, which took me just east of CVG's runways at 9k. I called up GRR after departing Hastings and was cleared as filed. Now I've done this many times through DTW and CLE, and they have always given me "the magic words," so as I get closer to CVG I am awaiting either 1) a reroute, which I know is going to happen, because they are landing N/S, and I'm right through the departure corridor, or 2) let me know I'm cleared through the Bravo.

I'm 5 minutes from penetration:

"7DS, just want to verify I am cleared through the Bravo"
"Are you IFR?"
"Yes"
"You don't need clearance if IFR."
"I'm not used to that, I fly near Chicago"

The only thing CVG had said to me prior to that was an altimeter setting upon handoff.
Click to expand...

In the IFR environment, you won't hear "Cleared in the class Bravo." The IFR routing in your clearance or obtained in an amended routing is all you need. They can vector you around class Bravo, but if your clearance takes you through it then so be it, your IFR routing is what matters.
 
Yeah, I've just always heard it before - or gotten the reroute.
 
I've never heard it while IFR. I've certainly gotten the re-route frequently around Chicago, but when flying directly into ORD or through other class B airspace I've not heard it. I had always been taught that while on an IFR flight plan you're cleared to go wherever ATC sends you with your clearance. Now, whether that would hold if they vectored you over the White House, I wouldn't count on. In that case, you can bet your bippy that I'm getting on the horn to clarify! :)
 
I've never heard it while IFR either. I get a clearance, and it's valid until I reach the clearance limit or ATC alters it.
 
EdFred said:
Well apparently GRR can clear me through CVGs airspace.

I filed direct from 9D9 to SRQ, which took me just east of CVG's runways at 9k. I called up GRR after departing Hastings and was cleared as filed. Now I've done this many times through DTW and CLE, and they have always given me "the magic words," so as I get closer to CVG I am awaiting either 1) a reroute, which I know is going to happen, because they are landing N/S, and I'm right through the departure corridor, or 2) let me know I'm cleared through the Bravo.

I'm 5 minutes from penetration:

"7DS, just want to verify I am cleared through the Bravo"
"Are you IFR?"
"Yes"
"You don't need clearance if IFR."
"I'm not used to that, I fly near Chicago"

The only thing CVG had said to me prior to that was an altimeter setting upon handoff.
Click to expand...

FAA Order 7110.65 Air Traffic Control says this to controllers:

7-9-2. VFR AIRCRAFT IN CLASS B AIRSPACE
​
a.​
​
​
VFR aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance to operate in Class B airspace.​



 
EdFred said:
Yeah, I've just always heard it before - or gotten the reroute.
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Well I have to admit that a routing around the Bravo is more common for me as well but as others have said if you're on an IFR clearance of any sort that takes you into Class B you're legal to enter without a specific clearance for that and IME the times my IFR flight did penetrate, there was no mention of the Class B. Technically, when you are cleared direct from GRR to SRQ that clearance implies that you are cleared into Cinci's Class B unless you are assigned an altitude above the top. If you lost comm before reaching CVG you'd be legal (and stupid IMO) to continue right on through.

BTW your OP didn't mention that you were IFR. The answer to your question is extremely dependent on IFR vs VFR.
 
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gismo said:
Well I have to admit that a routing around the Bravo is more common for me as well but as others have said if you're on an IFR clearance of any sort that takes you into Class B you're legal to enter without a specific clearance for that and IME the times my IFR flight did penetrate, there was no mention of the Class B. Technically, when you are cleared direct from GRR to SRQ that clearance implies that you are cleared into Cinci's Class B unless you are assigned an altitude above the top. If you lost comm before reaching CVG you'd be legal (and stupid IMO) to continue right on through.

BTW your OP didn't mention that you were IFR. The answer to your question is extremely dependent on IFR vs VFR.
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There's a reason I left the IFR part out. However, there is nothing in part 91 that goes against 91.131. Technically I was never cleared by the controlling agency as stated in 91.131 which does not limit it to VFR or IFR. But there's the FARs and then there's the real world. Sort of like lost comms. Nobody really wants us to fly to the clearance limit unless it's going be reached in the next 15 minutes.

I guess the point is, we are taught one thing, but in practice its another.
 
91.131(a)(1):

The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.
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It seems that the FAA has been consistently treating whichever ATC facility issues an IFR clearance as having jurisdiction for any and all class B airspace involved, subject to later revision in the form of amended clearances or vectors from the controllers in the specific area.

If they change that policy, I'm sure we will hear about it.

Of course it would be nice if the regulation explicitly stated this, but as with many things, I'll start worrying about it when I start hearing about violations being issued over it.
 
I guess the point is, we are taught one thing, but in practice its another.
*******************************************************
And the practice we are all familiar with is, that an IFR clearance is your permission to enter any airspace along the cleared route... I don't care/know who the controlling agency is or who has some letter or other... I routinely pass through WIndsor, Canada, airspace, but only get to talk to US controllers - do they have a letter? <shrug> beats me... I certainly have no way of knowing that from the cockpit...

I have always queried the controller when I was pointed straight through a restricted area that could be suddenly bad for my health (like the bombing range near a military base here in Michigan that I go through a dozen times a year) just to be sure... "Rxxx is not hot" is always the bored reply in a tone suggesting I am interrupting his coffee...

Just do what the nice man/lady says and the ATC recording will be your road to salvation...

cheers

denny-o
 
EdFred said:
There's a reason I left the IFR part out. However, there is nothing in part 91 that goes against 91.131. Technically I was never cleared by the controlling agency as stated in 91.131 which does not limit it to VFR or IFR. But there's the FARs and then there's the real world. Sort of like lost comms. Nobody really wants us to fly to the clearance limit unless it's going be reached in the next 15 minutes.

I guess the point is, we are taught one thing, but in practice its another.
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How about 14 CFR 91.181?

14 CFR §91.181: Course to be flown said:
Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft within controlled airspace under IFR except as follows:

(a) On an ATS route, along the centerline of that airway.

(b) On any other route, along the direct course between the navigational aids or fixes defining that route. However, this section does not prohibit maneuvering the aircraft to pass well clear of other air traffic or the maneuvering of the aircraft in VFR conditions to clear the intended flight path both before and during climb or descent.
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Essentially the reg says under IFR, you either have to be on an airway, any other route defined by navaids or fixes, or on a radar vector (authorized by ATC). If you don't follow the route to be flown in the clearance, then you bust 91.181. Therefore if the route takes you through Class B it doesn't matter, 91.181 is controlling under IFR.
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
How about 14 CFR 91.181?



Essentially the reg says under IFR, you either have to be on an airway, any other route defined by navaids or fixes, or on a radar vector (authorized by ATC). If you don't follow the route to be flown in the clearance, then you bust 91.181. Therefore if the route takes you through Class B it doesn't matter, 91.181 is controlling under IFR.
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But 91.131 doesn't say "except as provided in 91.181..."

It's like having a crosswalk sign saying "walk" and "dont walk" at the same time. Which is it, really? All they have to do is add 4 words and some numbers and all the ambiguity goes away.
 
EdFred said:
But 91.131 doesn't say "except as provided in 91.181..."

It's like having a crosswalk sign saying "walk" and "dont walk" at the same time. Which is it, really? All they have to do is add 4 words and some numbers and all the ambiguity goes away.
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Yes, but 91.131 doesn't specify VFR or IFR. 91.181 does; it only applies to IFR. Therefore I would have a higher inclination to comply with 91.181 when operating IFR.

The reg (91.131) isn't written as well as it could be as you discovered, but that doesn't relinquish you from complying with other regs as prescribed in part 91.
 
I don't see the issue here. You're issued a clearance by ATC, which clears you into whatever airspace you go along over the course of the flight. If you can't go through particular airspace (or the controlling agency doesn't want you to), they vector you around it.

I'll go with an agency having appropriate jurisdiction is the one that issues you the clearance, to be amended as appropriate (or as desired) by other agencies later. I'm not seeing a conflict.
 
EdFred said:
Technically I was never cleared by the controlling agency as stated in 91.131
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Well, technically you were. When you received your IFR clearance, it said something to the effect "ATC clears such and so to the destination airport as filed" or "ATC clears such and so to the destination airport via..." THAT is your clearance.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Well, technically you were. When you received your IFR clearance, it said something to the effect "ATC clears such and so to the destination airport as filed" or "ATC clears such and so to the destination airport via..." THAT is your clearance.
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I know, it just reads to me like one of those things where you are allowed to park on any street in a city provided there's enough room. But then there's a sign on a street saying no parking 2am - 6am. So which is it. Can I park there - because the city ordinance says I can (91.181) , or can I not park there because there's a sign saying I can't (91.131).
 
EdFred said:
Can I park there - because the city ordinance says I can (91.181) , or can I not park there because there's a sign saying I can't (91.131).
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I guess I am confused. How do you read 91.131 as saying you can't? (a)(1) covers it as far as I am concerned.

I suppose you are trying to make the case that the specific class Bravo controllers did not specifically issue the clearance, but the ATC clearance you received at the beginning of the flight trumps it. If the specific class Bravo controllers can't deal with you on your arrival in their airspace, they will vector you around it. Also, it isn't like the specific class Bravo controllers don't know you are coming.
 
EdFred said:
I know, it just reads to me like one of those things where you are allowed to park on any street in a city provided there's enough room. But then there's a sign on a street saying no parking 2am - 6am. So which is it. Can I park there - because the city ordinance says I can (91.181) , or can I not park there because there's a sign saying I can't (91.131).
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The routing in your IFR clearance authorizes you to continue. Whether you're in within the lateral boundaries of class B, C, D, or E, the IFR clearance authorizes you to proceed into any controlled airspace (class) along your route of flight. If you don't, you bust 91.181.

Going through Class B without the magic words "Cleared through class B" under IFR is standard practice. The IFR clearance authorizes you to fly the assigned route, no matter where it may take you (just don't go through a prohibited area). It's like asking a tower controller if you are cleared through the class D airspace, VFR, after you establish two way radio communications. It's not needed (you are already in compliance with the regs).
 
This discussion has surfaced an issue that I've always had with some of the FARs (like 91.131).

How am I, as a pilot, supposed to know which facility has jurisdiction over the airspace? I know there are general rules, but there are also LOAs out there, that are not public, and standard practices like this one? Finally, you might have controllers on a land-line arranging clearance into someone else's airspace as well.

Why not just write the FARs that say you need clearance from ATC, and let ATC figure out who can grant you that clearance, but once the clearance is issued, the pilot is covered?
 
Dad says, "Go get $20 out of your mother's purse." (91.181)
Are you really gonna dig through her purse without checking with mom first? (91.131)
 
I'm confused, Ed.

You're IFR.

Would the flipside be "Remain clear of the Class Bravo?"

If so....how? You're IFR, you're flying assigned path, you're fine.
 
All I am saying is there are a ton of other regs that are written "except as provided in xx.xxx..." and 91.131 is not. No where in 91.131 does it say, "unless you are IFR" or "unless some other agency says so" or "except as provided in 91.181"

The 'rule' is that usually the most restrictive regulation applies. Not to send this to SZ, but the Federal Gov't says we all have the right to own guns in this country- unless of course it is a handgun and you live in NY. If I go toNY, I have to follow the most restrictive statue - the local one.

91.131 is more restrictive than 91.181. The way I read 91.131, there is no provision in it allowing for anyone except CVGs controllers to clear me through CVGs airspace. So, I can comply with 91.181, but I am technically not complying with 91.131 because there is nothing in 131 that says there are exceptions (except for the non applicable 129 in this case) by anything else.
 
EdFred said:
All I am saying is there are a ton of other regs that are written "except as provided in xx.xxx..." and 91.131 is not. No where in 91.131 does it say, "unless you are IFR" or "unless some other agency says so" or "except as provided in 91.181"

The 'rule' is that usually the most restrictive regulation applies. Not to send this to SZ, but the Federal Gov't says we all have the right to own guns in this country- unless of course it is a handgun and you live in NY. If I go toNY, I have to follow the most restrictive statue - the local one.

91.131 is more restrictive than 91.181. The way I read 91.131, there is no provision in it allowing for anyone except CVGs controllers to clear me through CVGs airspace. So, I can comply with 91.181, but I am technically not complying with 91.131 because there is nothing in 131 that says there are exceptions (except for the non applicable 129 in this case) by anything else.
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Are you working on your taxes this week? :D
 
SkyHog said:
I'm confused, Ed.

You're IFR.

Would the flipside be "Remain clear of the Class Bravo?"

If so....how? You're IFR, you're flying assigned path, you're fine.
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Exactly. If they advised to remain clear of the Bravo and you turned to avoid it you would violate 91.181. If they give you a vector or an amended routing, that's a different story.
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
Exactly. If they advised to remain clear of the Bravo and you turned to avoid it you would violate 91.181. If they give you a vector or an amended routing, that's a different story.
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How wide is my path if not on an airway? ;)
 
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