When a violation on your record is expunged ----

WHat I think of your situation

  • You got screwed

    Votes: 11 27.5%
  • You got what you deserved

    Votes: 16 40.0%
  • Your aviation career is OVER

    Votes: 4 10.0%
  • There is still hope for your aviation career

    Votes: 17 42.5%

  • Total voters
    40

David Moeslein

Pre-Flight
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
58
Location
Olive Branch MS
Display Name

Display name:
DAVID
Those of you who have been "following" my saga of the unauthorized ADIZ penetration that occurred 5 years ago [July 10, 2004] will now get some more information that, in my opinion, is quite troubling.

I surrendered my certificate on July 29, 2009 for a period of 90 days. Now, I wanted to know how the various dates are looked at with respect to any inquiry. With respect to inquiry - there are three possibilities. The first (1) is the simple record: How long does the violation and the suspension remain on the record. The second (2) is: How do I answer a question concerning whether I have ever had any violations. The third (3) deals with the "rating agencies" such as Wyvern and ARG/US and what they report and rate when they look at the record. So - here's the answers:

(1) Pertaining to certificate action, such as a suspension, the record is open for five years following the date of the surrender of the certificate. For me, this means that my record has shown "pending enforcement action" for the past five years (and that has had its consequences) and now, I get to love with this for another five years! Does tha make any sense? Gets worse --- if I would have had an incident or accident, the record is only preserved for five years after the date of the incident or accident (admittedly, certificate action would probably be taken, too). Doesn't seem to be fair. [SEE ATTACHED PDF FILE]

(2) Not quite sure how to answer this question except that, over the next five years for certain, I have to answer "yes" to the question because the record will reveal it. Again, this i basically a 10-year black mark on my record.

(3) Here is the one that is the worst. I sent a letter to Wyvern and to ARG/US. Wyvern was very quick to respond with a phone call and a nice lady on the other end of the line. She said that Wyvern looks back for three years from the date of the violation AND they also consider the violation, the type of flight, and the aircraft. So - in my example, this was an ADIZ airspace violation (in a "heated & politically charged environment) that occurred over 5 years ago during an instructional flight in a Piper Arrow. To them, a non-issue when "recommending" a pilot for a flight in a corporate jet. The key with Wyvern is that they don't "rate", they "recommend". ARG/US has not responded but I spoke with them several months ago and this is where I learned that "pending enforcement action" was disqualifying me to fly for a company seeking an ARG/US rating.

In essence, I think I am screwed unless I can get before a chief pilot and explain the situation --- even then, insurance companies pick up where the FAA leaves off and that may even be a problem. I'll have to explore that next.

Some who read this will accuse me of whining. OK, that's their perspective. I'm just providing this information for anybody who may be interested.

Lastly, some have suggested that I seek legal action against the attorney who represented me. Given the domino effect of how things have turned out, I'd like to do that --- but I think it would be terribly expensive AND hard to prove, unless there was some attorney who truly understood it and took it on contingency.

I think I just move on; sometimes life isn't as you'd like it and you do the best to recover.
 

Attachments

  • Expunge0001.pdf
    2.6 MB · Views: 40
I know the feeling...I also rely on aviation as an income source and like so many others found myself under the FAA knife edge when I violated a TFR. I knew the TFR was there but after a troublesome 8 hour flight, when things were finally quieting down, I made the big mistake...I relaxed for few moments, lost pin point situational awareness and bam, I'm flying formation with an F-15. I took a 30 day suspension and immediately purchased the AOPA legal plan. This is the only mark on my 17 years of flying. So, far it has not affected my commercial flying, just some more explaining...but I guess it would be differnet ball game if I were to seek corporate or airline flying again. Cheers, I'll have a beer for you!:cheerswine:
 
Greetings! Thanks for your comments. I hope to be able to return to aviation; the variable this time is the economy that we're in but who knows on that one. I doubt that I will seek something "big" that will require form filling out and HR scrutiny (in which case I would be immediately disqualified) ---- so I think this whole mess is easily explainable - and even humorous - to a principal or chief pilot. I have to explore the insurance company aspects to see what problems that might present. I'll have a beer for you, too! :cheerswine:
 
David,

Now that your enforcement action is no longer pending, I bet that ARG/US might be more willing to rate/recommend you. Before, they didn't know what the outcome would be. Now they do. Hopefully they can give you an answer now that the FAA side of things is over.
 
Personally, I think that TFR/SFAR violations are becoming so common that long before 5 years having such a mark on your record will have little if any effect on a professional aviation career unless the job market is so tight that all potential employers are rejecting applicants for the slightest issues including non-alcohol related traffic tickets.
 
The FAA hires ASI's with past violations. Personally I don't think you should have any problems after you get your ticket back.
 
I'm also of the opinion that once hiring picks up again, which is hopefully going to be sooner than 5 years, you shouldn't have that much problem. My advice would be to come up with a short, plausible, explanation. I'm still not really clear about what happened, but I think you need to take responsibility for it. Some people will accept it and some won't. By all means do not use that bbbbbut I wasn't PIC defense. That will turn a lot of people off. I hope you are serious about putting this behind you. Good luck in the future.
 
Hell no (to the PIC excuse)! Even I knew - as do most private pilots at the 100-hour mark - that the FAA is always going to chase the senior pilot! My CFI notes were all over the guy's logbook and, after all, I was a CFI on board that flight that day. I think what I will take responsibility for is NOT putting my foot down right away and telling the attorney that WE were not going to use that defense! Lesson learned, hard lesson learned!
 
Suing your lawyer is not going to help.
 
Hell no (to the PIC excuse)! Even I knew - as do most private pilots at the 100-hour mark - that the FAA is always going to chase the senior pilot! My CFI notes were all over the guy's logbook and, after all, I was a CFI on board that flight that day. I think what I will take responsibility for is NOT putting my foot down right away and telling the attorney that WE were not going to use that defense! Lesson learned, hard lesson learned!

That statement finally answered all the questions I had. Suck it up cupcake and get over it. You were in charge, it is your responsibility. You made bad choices in the cockpit and on the ground.
 
"Cupcake"? You have your butt, your career, your livelihood on the line and it is hardly a cupcake matter!

My statement should have answered none of the questions that you had unless you were not totally up-to-speed on matters. No bad decisions were made in the cockpit and no bad decisions were made on the ground; in fact, all the right decisions were made. Truly, where this went wrong, is with the defense pursued by the attorney. Yes, at this point I was along for the ride but when you are bleeding with a fatal wound you hardly put a band-aid on it yourself. In this matter, I hired the best attorney around - highly recommended by AOPA and well known to and respected by the FAA. Sadly to say, by the time he was headed down the wrong path, any of the records that I needed to prove full knowledge and intentional compliance were long gone!

Attached to this response is a copy of the information submitted through the Aviation Safety Reporting Program (a/k/a the NASA form). Once you read this, your perspective may change.

To move on to pleasantries, enjoy your airplane and what appears to be your recreation (as in "for fun" noting your Commercial/ASEL-IA). If the FAA chases you and sucks away your certificate for 90 days, you'll just save money on gas.



That statement finally answered all the questions I had. Suck it up cupcake and get over it. You were in charge, it is your responsibility. You made bad choices in the cockpit and on the ground.
 

Attachments

  • ADIZ.pdf
    143.4 KB · Views: 54
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David,

you can stop crying, you can stop crying to me and to everyone else. Your bad decisions got you to where you are. As you said you hired the "best attorney around" and he could not save you bacon. I have been following this case for a long time. The more I read the more I realize that you are your own worst enemy. Even Martin and Scheafer showed more grace during their suspension than you have since yours. I for one never, ever want to be in a plane with you. From what I read here I question your judgment and do not trust your decision making skills. There is no more recourse for you, no one is willing to listen unless you fork over a bunch of cash and get the SCOTUS takes up the case, which is not likely. Why you persist in this Don Quixote attempt to exonerate yourself at this point is probably something that you should discuss with a trained professional. I just wish you luck and hope that you can heal yourself one day.
 
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I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I have been down the road of an FAA investigation over a false allegation. It's not pleasant and the FAA doesn't play by the rules. And when your livelyhood depends upon your ticket it's even more stressful.

I prevailed after hiring an attorney and fighting. I think what David has posted here is very informative and can show anyone several pitfalls that can be encountered when going through something like this.

And, BTW, I would gladly share a cockpit with David anytime, anywhere.
 
Scott --- I post my reply to you here as opposed to a private response for the benefit of others who may have a differing perspective. This is not about crying and whining; it is about demonstrating how one very routine flight on a beautiful Saturday morning 5 years ago can turn into the worst nightmare of your life when you think you are doing everything right.

Scott - I'd like to know how you would have handled things differently. Remember, you have no idea how big the problem really is, you're trying to be cooperative, and you realize that you have one chance to handle it properly and your career is on the line. OK - 60 seconds . . . GO!

You are all excited about buying your first airplane --- a 1979 Piper Warrior. Truly, I think it is great and I share the enthusiasm with you; I often wonder whether it may have been better to stay in the cheap seas and look forward to the Saturday $100-hamburger runs. But now, your little bird doesn't even fly as fast as the takeoff speed of the aircraft I last flew! Looks like you fly around northwest and outside of the Chicago Class "B" and virtually no IMC/IFR (if FlightAware) is any indication. I have flown all over the world in the busiest of airspace, the worst of weather, and with language barriers that are unbelievable in a system where English is the language of aviation.

Not sure what you do for a living, but mine CAME TO AN END in the worst economy we've seen for years. And . . . I experienced it as opposed to sitting in the comfort of wherever your computer is and commenting.

Yes, truly, one day maybe you'll venture into the Chicago Class "B" (or worse yet, A TFR) and get all snarled up in it and then get that wonderful "We have a number for you to call . . ." from ATC and let's see how you respond . . . and then, maybe you'll remember what you read - and learned - from me.

:incazzato:From a professional perspective, I must take strong exception to your statement, "I question your judgment and do not trust your decision making skills." You are certainly subject to your opinion but I think you may be in the minority given the number of the people who have received instruction from me, including "Cap'n Ron and his wife, (at the time --- 5,000+ hours of dual given with 70 recommendations for checkrides @ 95% first-time pass rate), holding a Gold Seal Instructor Certificate [CFI, CFII, MEI], and ATP Pilot Certificate with two type ratings and with Check Airman authority for one of the largest air carriers out there.

Despite our differences of opinion, I still wish you fun in the skies, separated from the responsibilities and liabilities of professional flying.

David






David,

you can stop crying, you can stop crying to me and to everyone else. Your bad decisions got you to where you are. As you said you hired the "best attorney around" and he could not save you bacon. I have been following this case for a long time. The more I read the more I realize that you are your own worst enemy. Even Martin and Scheafer showed more grace during their suspension than you have since yours. I for one never, ever want to be in a plane with you. From what I read here I question your judgment and do not trust your decision making skills. There is no more recourse for you, no one is willing to listen unless you fork over a bunch of cash and get the SCOTUS takes up the case, which is not likely. Why you persist in this Don Quixote attempt to exonerate yourself at this point is probably something that you should discuss with a trained professional. I just wish you luck and hope that you can heal yourself one day.
 
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To quote Ms Aunt Peggy...

My suggestions:
  1. Buy a stronger whip.
  2. Change riders.
  3. Say things like, “This is the way we have always ridden this horse.”
  4. Appoint a committee to study the horse.
  5. Arrange to visit other sites to see how they ride dead horses.
  6. Increase the standards to ride dead horses.
  7. Appoint a tiger team to revive the dead horse.
  8. Create a training session to increase our riding ability.
  9. Compare the state of dead horses in today’s environment.
  10. Change the requirements declaring that “This horse is not dead.”
  11. Hire contractors to ride the dead horse.
  12. Harness several dead horses together for increased speed.
  13. Declare that “No horse is too dead to beat.”
  14. Provide additional funding to increase the horse’s performance.
  15. Do a Cost Analysis study to see if contractors can ride it cheaper.
  16. Purchase a product to make dead horses run faster.
  17. Declare the horse is “better, faster and cheaper” dead.
  18. Form a quality circle to find uses for dead horses.
  19. Revisit the performance requirements for horses.
  20. Say this horse was procured with cost as an independent variable.
  21. Promote the dead horse to a supervisory position.

Get some professional help in dealing with this.
 
I wonder if it would have helped if you had asked Approach Control if they were receiving your transponder (both on the outbound and inbound flights). That would have either gotten it on the tape that you had reason to believe it was working, or given you warning that it was not, so that you would know to stay out of the ADIZ until it was fixed.
 
I think what I will take responsibility for is NOT putting my foot down right away and telling the attorney that WE were not going to use that defense! Lesson learned, hard lesson learned!

Prisons are full of innocent men and women - just ask them. If I were a prospective employer and came to POA and read your posts, I would conclude that you're not able or not willing to take responsibility for your mistakes. To me, that would be a lot bigger black mark than the violation itself.


Trapper John
 
If I were a prospective employer and came to POA and read your posts, I would conclude that you're not able or not willing to take responsibility for your mistakes. To me, that would be a lot bigger black mark than the violation itself.

That has been my problem all along with David's posts, and why I really have no interest in what he has to say, no matter how good a pilot he may or may not be.
 
The second (2) is: How do I answer a question concerning whether I have ever had any violations.

(snip)

(2) Not quite sure how to answer this question except that, over the next five years for certain, I have to answer "yes" to the question because the record will reveal it. Again, this i basically a 10-year black mark on my record.

As worded the question doesn't ask about your current certificate record, it asks "Have you ever...". There is more than enough public information available to a prospective employer, insurance investigator, or whomever to bring this suspension to light indefinitely. Off the top of my head: your NTSB ruling and your postings on the internet will never go away. You get to answer this question "yes" forever.
 
David, I too have to conclude that the continued public airing of your saga is questionable. I am really not sure where your going with this.....
 
While I myself have gone through a similar experience (and finally have an idea why) I do think this is like the guy at the party who keeps talking about his boat whether or not anyone really wants to listen. Seriously, enough. The ticket will be back soon, life will go back to whatever version of normalcy it had in the first place, and there will be a long sad story to tell.
 
In this matter, I hired the best attorney around - highly recommended by AOPA and well known to and respected by the FAA. Sadly to say, by the time he was headed down the wrong path, any of the records that I needed to prove full knowledge and intentional compliance were long gone!

While I sympatize with your situation, there is nothing fair about the justice system. Anyone who hires an attorney looking for justice in our justice system is a fool and is going to be very disappointed. The justice system is about laws and the interpretation thereof, and who you are and who you know. Your lawer saw a way to beat the laws, you allowed this defense to go forward and it didn't work out. You might have been "right as rain", but the facts are you lost. There is nothing fair about the legal system.

I'm not trying to be mean or pile on. I've been in your situation and, done all that, best advice I can give.... "Suck it up and get over it."

It is, what it is.
 
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What do you want us to say? Great job??

It is a challenge, to say the least, to read your posts and not draw the conclusion that 1) you committed a violation, 2) you agreed to pursue a defense based on a minor technicality in consultation with your lawyer, rather than addressing the facts of the case, 3) you failed, 4) so now you are hoping the court of public opinion will exonerate you.

Do the time, move on. Seriously. If you have that many hours, and that much experience, you should know better. IMHO.
 
I'm looking for a nice Chaumes or Bleu de Termignon to go with these threads. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
 
I'm looking for a nice Chaumes or Bleu de Termignon to go with these threads. Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Hmm would have pegged more as a Velveta man ;)

Hmmm Velveeta Bleu, now that's an interesting concept :yes:. Although you'd have to be able to grow mold on Velveeta in the first place :D:D
 
For mold to grow does it not need some sort of organic medium? That would seem to rule out Velveta. :fingerwag:

Not at all. Mold grows on shower curtains and basement walls. I've never seen it grow on Velveta, but perhaps that's just because they have an anti-fungal ingredient of some type.
 
Not at all. Mold grows on shower curtains and basement walls. I've never seen it grow on Velveta, but perhaps that's just because they have an anti-fungal ingredient of some type.


Actually, Velveeta is made from shower curtains and basement walls.
 
Actually, Velveeta is made from shower curtains and basement walls.

It wouldn't surprise me if it was first made in old bathtubs, or still is for that matter.
 
Scott --- I post my reply to you here as opposed to a private response for the benefit of others who may have a differing perspective. This is not about crying and whining; it is about demonstrating how one very routine flight on a beautiful Saturday morning 5 years ago can turn into the worst nightmare of your life when you think you are doing everything right.

Then your capabilities to think are called into question.... BTW, when you are in command, you are never "along for the ride". You may get advice, but it is YOUR responsibility to decide on what to do with that advice, and nobody else's. You may make a good FO, but you will never make a good Captain with this whiny ***** attitude. You aren't educating anyone here with all of this tripe anymore, everyone who is going to hear the story here has already heard it. You still haven't admitted that anything, not one step along the way, was your error. You still think you did everything right.
 
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Prisons are full of innocent men and women - just ask them. If I were a prospective employer and came to POA and read your posts, I would conclude that you're not able or not willing to take responsibility for your mistakes. To me, that would be a lot bigger black mark than the violation itself.


Trapper John

Exactly, as a person who hires people into positions of responsibility, how a person handles errors is more significant than the errors themselves.
 
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