Wheel Fairings on Grass Strips

kontiki

kontiki

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Kontiki
My Grumman Tiger has wheel fairings. I haven't had it long. I'm wondering how it would do if I take it to the EAA breakfast at a local grass strip.

Anybody have any advice?

Thanks,
 
kontiki said:
My Grumman Tiger has wheel fairings. I haven't had it long. I'm wondering how it would do if I take it to the EAA breakfast at a local grass strip.

Anybody have any advice?

Thanks,
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Shouldn't be a problem depending on smoothness of the strip, grass height, etc.

The biggest danger is the unseen gopher hole or a rut hidden by grass.
 
On a maintained grass strip you'll be fine.

I fly my plane into grass strips, 700-6 mains with pants that come to the bottom of the wheel, no issues here.

Chances are if it's a EAA event it's not going to be anything you'd see in big rocks & long props
 
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kontiki said:
My Grumman Tiger has wheel fairings. I haven't had it long. I'm wondering how it would do if I take it to the EAA breakfast at a local grass strip.

Anybody have any advice?

Thanks,
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Unless I knew the runway was really well maintained, I'd pass.
 
Measure the amount of tire that sticks out of the fairing. Then ask someone at the airport to measure the length of the grass. If you don't have at least an inch of clearance, pull the main wheel fairings before going to the fly-in. That's "preventive maintenance" you can do yourself (if you know how). Takes maybe half an hour to remove both main wheel fairings, no jacking required. Removing the nose fairing means removing the nose wheel, and that takes a lot longer, but the nose fairing isn't as big a deal for takeoff performance.

Note: This is a Tiger, not a 172, and its tolerance for tall grass is a lot less than the 172's.
 
Ron Levy said:
Note: This is a Tiger, not a 172, and its tolerance for tall grass is a lot less than the 172's.
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why so? grass is grass and wheels are wheels why is it different on a grumman?
 
this is mainly a cosmetic issue. If you don't want to clean grass stains off the bottom of the fairings, take them off.
 
Ron Levy said:
..... Then ask someone at the airport to measure the length of the grass...
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Baa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

You must be smokin' grass to even post that!!

You're going to call up the FBO ....and......ask them to......mesure the F'n GRASS :rofl:
 
Tom-D said:
why so? grass is grass and wheels are wheels why is it different on a grumman?
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Tire pressure and wheel clearances. The Tiger with fairings on is much more sensitive to tall grass than a 172. Remove the fairings and the differences are much smaller. Get a few hundred landings and takeoffs on grass in each and you'll understand.

BTW, the statement "grass is grass" is misleading, and potentially dangerous. Grass varies in length, density, moisture content, blade width/shape, flexibility and quite a few other factors. The coefficient of friction measured on grass range has varied by a factor of ten -- and that's a big deal.

Further, "wheels are wheels" also is misleading. If wheels were just wheels, then there wouldn't be Tundra Tires. Take a good look at tires and wheels on light aircraft and you'll see wide variations in diameter, width, pressure, and other factors which dramatically change the response to grass.
 
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DavidWhite said:
I've taken my mooney off grass before (and landed) a few times and never had any problems.
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I've seen grass like a putting green, with peach fuzz length and a smooth, flat, hard undersurface. I've also seen 6-inch deep thick wet grass with a soft, rough undersurface. They ain't the same when you're taking off -- not by a long shot.
 
Ron Levy said:
Tire pressure and wheel clearances. The Tiger with fairings on is much more sensitive to tall grass than a 172. Remove the fairings and the differences are much smaller. Get a few hundred landings and takeoffs on grass in each and you'll understand.
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Wait wait wait, I'm supposed to believe that tire pressure of 25-30 pounds in a 6:00 X 6 Cessna tire is different than then 25-30 pounds in a 6:00 X 6 grumman tire ?

Plus you want us to think grass friction on a grumman fairing is greater that the grass friction on a 172 fairing?

When you do a study of Bovine scatology make it believable.
 
Tom-D said:
Wait wait wait, I'm supposed to believe that tire pressure of 25-30 pounds in a 6:00 X 6 Cessna tire is different than then 25-30 pounds in a 6:00 X 6 grumman tire ?
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You don't even know the numbers for a Tiger and you make statements like that anyway.

Good night, Tom.
 
Ron Levy said:
I've seen grass like a putting green, with peach fuzz length and a smooth, flat, hard undersurface. I've also seen 6-inch deep thick wet grass with a soft, rough undersurface. They ain't the same when you're taking off -- not by a long shot.
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Ayuh. Since I'd never landed on grass before, I went out with an instructor the week before Gaston's. The place we went has grass and weeds at least 4-5" tall on soft ground, it had rained for several days that week. Then we went to Gaston's and it may have well been paved. Huge difference.

All of this was sans wheel pants, by the way. The other night I talked to a friend with an RV-7; he says he has no trouble at all with turn runways in his plane, and the pants are pretty close to the ground on that.
 
Ron Levy said:
You don't even know the numbers for a Tiger and you make statements like that anyway.

Good night, Tom.
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If you had said the differential brake steering was sensitive to uneven grass drag on the main gear, I'd have bought it.

OBTW your M/M is on line.
 
My RV-6 with wheelpants and 5.00x5 tires does just fine on grass strips. A Grumman AA5 series ought to handle grass runways even better.
 
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Neal Howard said:
My RV-6 with wheelpants and 5.00x5 tires does just fine on grass strips. A Grumman AA5 series ought to handle grass runways even better.
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These guys are Grumman experts they don't seem to have any problems.

http://airmodsnw.com

I've been to their home field I've never seen it groomed all that well.
 
Neal Howard said:
My RV-6 with wheelpants and 5.00x5 tires does just fine on grass strips. A Grumman AA5 series ought to handle grass runways even better.
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Again, it depends on the surface, although I have never really looked at the pants on an RV-6 or how they sit when this taildragger is on the ground so I have no idea how they compare with Grummans.
 
Tom-D said:
These guys are Grumman experts they don't seem to have any problems.

http://airmodsnw.com

I've been to their home field I've never seen it groomed all that well.
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One of the two AA-5x's pictured has the pants off, and the other shows short grass (1-2 inches). Looks pretty dry and smooth, too. As I said, get a good PIREP on conditions and then decide, but keep in mind that on grass, depending on conditions, a Grumman's takeoff roll is 2-4 times landing roll, so if the runway is short, it's pretty easy to get into a place out of which you cannot get other than on a flat-bed.
 
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I was based on grass for five years...until about a month ago when I moved the plane to a paved strip. My wheel pants stayed on and were never an issue and that included true soft field operations during winter freeze/thaw cycles where mud was flung on the horizontal stab. Precautions and results included:

1. Keeping the inside of the pants clean. Fortunately water was available in my hangar and had plenty of pressure for blasting out the pants.

2. Repacking wheel bearings every six months. The above mentioned cleaning was hard on bearings. The (1920s design) felt seals are no match for relatively high pressure water.

3. The pre-flight paid particular attention to wheel pant mounting hardware as the vibration on grass strips tended to loosen screws.

4. Strip down, re-gelcoat, and re-paint the pants every two to three years because, again, the vibration from 75 to 100 landings per year (or more) on grass takes it's toll and the fiberglas develops spider cracks.

5. Oh, and an extra set of pants that I found on eBay sitting in the barn just in case. :)

I've found grass strips to be just as hard or harder on my flap skins. Using 20* of flaps, being hammered by take-off prop wash, takes its toll on flap skins. Especially the left one.
 
I used the grass strip plenty of times in my 150 with the wheel fairings on. I took them off because I got a bunch of mud up there one day when it was really wet (stupid me story), and I think the plane looks better without them.
 
Ron Levy said:
One of the two AA-5x's pictured has the pants off, and the other shows short grass (1-2 inches). Looks pretty dry and smooth, too. As I said, get a good PIREP on conditions and then decide, but keep in mind that on grass, depending on conditions, a Grumman's takeoff roll is 2-4 times landing roll, so if the runway is short, it's pretty easy to get into a place out of which you cannot get other than on a flat-bed.
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Wouldn't you mow and clean the place up if you were taking pictures for your web page?

Now that is a pretty good reason not to take a Grumman to grass, but it applies to all aircraft
 
Tom-D said:
Now that is a pretty good reason not to take a Grumman to grass,
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No, it's not. Only not to take a Grumman (or any other plane) into an airport it can't fly out of. The key is knowing the capabilities and limitations of the airplane you're flying, and then respecting them.
but it applies to all aircraft
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Exactly. Nothing special in this regard about Grummans other than they have different capabilities and limitations than the planes in which most pilots learned to fly.
 
A thought occurred to me, (that happens once in a while)
Differential brake steering on Grass, it is dependent upon traction for directional control.

Any more worries than say an aircraft with nose wheel steering?
 
Tom-D said:
A thought occurred to me, (that happens once in a while)
Differential brake steering on Grass, it is dependent upon traction for directional control.

Any more worries than say an aircraft with nose wheel steering?
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Not if there's traction, and there's plenty of that on grass -- almost too much. Just stay off the ice.
 
Tom-D said:
What do you do on slippery runways?
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Same thing you do with nosewheel steering -- turn carefully. But short of sheet ice, there's always a little traction.

Ice?
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Don't go there. And while steering may not be as compromised with nosewheel steering as with differential braking, you can't stop either way.

does the Grummies have skis?
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No STC's for it, or any field approvals of which I am aware, but you never know what someone may have done off the books in Alaska.
 
Ron Levy said:
but you never know what someone may have done off the books in Alaska.
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You can pretty much put that to rest, the FAA is very active in AK, plus they have the Alaska state patrol on duty too.

The reason people living remote have aircraft is so they can come to town, and when they do they get looked at.

The OWT about you can do any thing you want in Ak. is dead and gone.
 
Ron Levy said:
Again, it depends on the surface, although I have never really looked at the pants on an RV-6 or how they sit when this taildragger is on the ground so I have no idea how they compare with Grummans.
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The RV's generally have relatively little ground clearance between the bottom of the wheel pants opening to the ground, and the wheelpants themselves are more delicate than typical factory airplanes' wheelpants, yet they handle the grass very well as long as you are careful when you taxi and avoid rolling over pavement-to-grass transitions with a big step to them... that's where a lot of RV wheelpants get damaged.
 
I have a liberty that has very low clearance on the wheel pants,which are also paper thin,I have taxied on grass but choose not to land on grass not knowing the smoothness of the grass.
 
Ron Levy said:
Nothing special in this regard about Grummans other than they have different capabilities and limitations than the planes in which most pilots learned to fly.
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I'd contend that the Grummans aren't that much different in this aspect.

Plus the grass is much more forgiving than the hard stuff.
 
Ron Levy said:
Contend away -- how many grass field takeoffs have you done in Grummans?

In some ways yes, in some ways, no. It's all situations.
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I fly a AA1 frequently, it aint a completely different type of aircraft lol

Go land on the grass, it's not going to hurt anything, jeeze
 
What Ron is saying is that one should use caution on grass that is going to extend a takeoff roll in an airplane that likes to chew up runway even in perfect conditions.

Grass can in fact cause big problems if it's long enough to slow things down. Ask David White about taking off in my Flybaby in tall grass.
 
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