What's wrong with this picture?

Don Jones

Don Jones

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
855
Location
Las Cruces, New Mexico
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Display name:
DJones
Sent to us by one of the FSDO guys.
Pilot: "Hey Joe, what is that rattling noise"
Joe: "What noise?"
OOPS!
 

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That just a time saver in my book. No more having to move luggage out from on top of the puller. to back the plane back into its tiedown. If i could find a way to bungie mine up during flight i would. :)
How about the guy who took off with a tie down rope attached to a tire.....
 
Michael said:
That just a time saver in my book. No more having to move luggage out from on top of the puller. to back the plane back into its tiedown. If i could find a way to bungie mine up during flight i would. :)
How about the guy who took off with a tie down rope attached to a tire.....
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I saw a guy landing with the rope dragging behind the tail tiedown ring as I was waiting for takeoff.

I called him and advised on the radio but he never acknowleged. Wonder why.
 
Man I hate to see what happens on landings.
 
Tarheel Pilot said:
Man I hate to see what happens on landings.
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This picture was posted on avweb.com this week. It happened in Chicago. A student and instructor were on board. After circling for 45 minutes waiting on the fire trucks, they made an uneventful landing. No damage was reported.
 
I saw this in AvWeb... I kept wondering how one misses a big piece of metal during the walk-around? I do the normal pre-flight inspection, then I walk around and collect the fuel samples. If it needs oil, I'll be walking around it again. But, before I climb in I'll walk around both sides a final time for a quick looksee. When I pull the step stool out for the fuel tanks, I'll leave the baggage door hanging open as a reminder. One of the things I see as I put it away... the tow bar. I'm confused!

Even as a commercial student near checkride, I still see my CFI or another walk up and check oil for their own piece of mind; another opportunity to see that odd-looking thing sticking out from under the prop.
 
I am guessing that they did the preflight in a hangar, and then pulled it out prior to departure. It seems like they still should have noticed it, but there wouldn't have been quite as many opportunities to have seen it that way.

I had a similar experience about five months ago. A chock had been securing the nosewheel prior to my pre-flight (the kind of chock that is two blocks of wood connected by a thin rope). My normal procedure during preflight is to grab the rope near the front block and swing it around so that the "front block" is now immediately behind the back block.

Upon takeoff on an IFR flight (in VMC), I heard noises which could best be described as similar to how sneakers sound when tumbling around in a clothes dryer. I immediately returned for landing and discovered that the rope connecting the chocks had blown its way up into the wheel fairing and caught up on a piece of metal inside it.

From that point on, whenever I removed the front block from the wheel, I have swung it back a foot or so behind the rear block, so that there isn't any slack in the rope.

Judd
 
KennyFlys said:
I saw this in AvWeb... I kept wondering how one misses a big piece of metal during the walk-around?
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I was wondering how you could miss the awful noise it must make while you're taxiing and during the takeoff roll... :dunno:
 
smigaldi said:
Grant isn't that the guy down your way?
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That's not one of the planes at our FBO. Don't recognize the tail number. Per the FAA database, it's a 172R based in Kane County to DRH AIRCRAFT LLC. We're where DuPage and Will Counties meet. We have only one 172R at our FBO, N72662.
 
At an FBO where I took training, they tie the planes to concrete blocks. Student assumed the instructor had untied the right wing and the instructor expected the student to untie the plane completely. Tower noticed the cement block hanging from the right wing as the student and instructor were fighting to keep the wings level after takeoff.

Gave a new meaning to "block time" at the FBO.

For a long time, they had a small electrically-powered model C172 rotating from the ceiling. It had a tiny grey object hanging by a string from the right wing.
 
AuntPeggy said:
At an FBO where I took training, they tie the planes to concrete blocks.
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You know, I have always wondered about the concrete block thing. Does that really do anything? I always figured the kind of things you were protecting against would not be prevented by something the size of a concrete block. Seems like kind of minimal protection to me.

Judd
 
jspittler said:
You know, I have always wondered about the concrete block thing. Does that really do anything? I always figured the kind of things you were protecting against would not be prevented by something the size of a concrete block. Seems like kind of minimal protection to me.

Judd
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A block is worthless.
 
KennyFlys said:
I saw this in AvWeb... I kept wondering how one misses a big piece of metal during the walk-around? I do the normal pre-flight inspection, then I walk around and collect the fuel samples. If it needs oil, I'll be walking around it again. But, before I climb in I'll walk around both sides a final time for a quick looksee. When I pull the step stool out for the fuel tanks, I'll leave the baggage door hanging open as a reminder. One of the things I see as I put it away... the tow bar. I'm confused!
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Mistakes happen. I've never forgotten one of those on before but I will admit I have tried to taxi away with the nose wheel chock still in place.
 
We have a rule in our flying club never let the tow-bar touch the ground. Keep it in your hand at all times when its connected to the plane. If you have to leave the nose of the plane, take the bar off first.

Its fortunate that their touchdown was uneventful, but I'd be more concerned about takeoff. On landing that bar's gonna end up behind the plane. What if that tow-bar got hung up on a piece of uneven asphalt
while it was in front of the plane, or bounced up into the prop?
 
cwyckham said:
That won't do anything useful to the weight and balance!
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I don't think any POH addresses W&B calculations on the longitudinal axis! :dunno:

Well, perhaps a huge bomber that carries several thousand-pounders or greater off the wing. I'm not sure about birds other than the Viking but the really heavy weapons were loaded in the bomb bay. The three nukes we could carry were well over a ton and only mounted in the bay. The wings would hold up to three, five-hundred pounders but I've never seen that configuration as they were usually missiles.

When I think about it, I know balance is part of the importance of moving fuel between tanks on an airliner as well as using a clock to burn evenly from both wings on a small plane. But, I wonder how much difference there has to be for it to become critical.

Just throwing questions out there into thin air.... where my mind is usually at rest. :)
 
KennyFlys said:
When I think about it, I know balance is part of the importance of moving fuel between tanks on an airliner as well as using a clock to burn evenly from both wings on a small plane. But, I wonder how much difference there has to be for it to become critical.
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About 37% higher than the VL-factor is about the lower end of the critical threshold. 48% and it's good night.
 
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I think 48 is a pretty conservative estimate. Ive gone as high as 52. You wont go wrong staying low though. VL Factor is not something to mess with...
 
KennyFlys said:
I don't think any POH addresses W&B calculations on the longitudinal axis! :dunno:
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My comment about W&B was regarding a concrete block attached to the tail ring, which will certainly make a significant difference to what I would call "longitudinal w&b." Helicopters do have lateral w&b limits in their POHs, but I've never seen it in a light aircraft.

Chris
 
In my previous incarnation as a line guy I got to see a lot of fun stuff. Pilots taxiing with towbars on, gas caps dangling, oil doors hanging open.... Used to see at least one guy a week try to taxi with the chocks still in. Wait till they decided whether or not to power out of them, then offer to remove them AFTER they shut down.:yes: Watched a Howard 350 go taxiing to the runway with the tailwheel bar still attached..
My first flight instructor used to tell me to back away from the plane and take a final look before getting in. If he thought i wasn't being attentive enough he'd slide a chock back in or re-tie the tail. After getting in and belted I'd hear "Are you SURE you double checked?" The first time the plane wouldn't move was the LAST time I let him get me like that. It really sucks having the line guys you work with rolling on the ramp laughing as you have to get out and move the chocks:rofl:
 
jesse said:
Uhh..and you call yourself a pilot?
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Real nice, jesse, real nice. I don't know what VL factor means either, and I've been flying and teaching over 40 years. I will never know it all.
 
KennyFlys said:
Come on Mr. "Technical Mind," what is it? :D
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VL-Factor is essentially a relative measurement between the center of lift in relation to the center of gravity taking in account the wing area and absolute loading. I suggest that you read some advanced aero theory material.
 
KennyFlys said:
So, according to one dataset, the wing is potentially bi-polar? I didn't know AMT's had to deal with psychology! :D
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Most wings are. A little bit of ice brings out their other side.
 
jesse said:
VL-Factor is essentially a relative measurement between the center of lift in relation to the center of gravity taking in account the wing area and absolute loading. I suggest that you read some advanced aero theory material.
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You know, I keep looking and not seeing the smiley faces after your two posts. You know, the last two posts where you sound like a know-it-all jerk? I'm sure you just forgot them, but some other people on this board who don't know what a nice and helpful guy you are might be left with the impression that those posts were serious.

Yes, I really should read more advanced aero theory material. I've basically been lazy about that and have been concentrating my reading on more pilot-centric than engineer-centric texts. The aircraft design course I helped teach last year at Princeton used Raymer as a text. Unfortunately, I don't have a copy anymore, but I think that Raymer basically uses the mean aerodynamic chord (MAC) to normalize the static stability. In other words, he takes the distance between the center of lift and the center of gravity and divides by the MAC.

I don't understand why the wing loading (absolute loading divided by wing area, as you mention above) would come into the stability margin. For one thing, the result isn't unitless which is a common requirement for most useful measures (for example, thrust isn't really important. It's the unitless thrust to weight ratio that matters).

Could you post a little more detail about the VL factor? You've obviously piqued a lot of people's interest.

Chris
 
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