what's wrong with general aviation today?

Tom-D

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Tom-D
Have we owners been screwed so hard so many times by our CFI, FBO, A&P, and parts suppliers that we now must get screwed to think we are getting a good deal.

The replies in Pay for parts up front is getting me to think that.

There can't be a good deal in aviation or some will think that the service provider is trying to pull some thing over on us.

no wonder why the E-AB concept has such a great following.

Thoughts ?
 
After the 80's, airframes actively appreciated in value. That ended some time ago, leaving owners in the grasp of increasing cost for service and parts with simultaneously decreasing value for the airframe. And yes, it is demoralizing.

600 hours after the nicest wings off restoration anyone's ever seen, my aircraft needed $2300 in repairs that took a month and they didn't even wash the thing. Another $2000 went into transponder repair, over $600 of that for shipping the thing to the repair station and driving it 20 minutes across town.

Tell me I haven't been shafted. Just try.
 
$600 in shipping?!?! Was the transponder sent via limo with a naked super model or something?
 
$379 for shipping to the repair facility which is in Iowa if I recall correctly. $300 to drive it three times 20 minutes across town. Three times because the first attempt at repair was unsuccessful. I will use neither shop ever again.
 
After the 80's, airframes actively appreciated in value. That ended some time ago, leaving owners in the grasp of increasing cost for service and parts with simultaneously decreasing value for the airframe. And yes, it is demoralizing.

I'd add that the airframes never really appreciated at all, it was an illusion of high inflation and free loan money, coupled with high incentives to have prices as high as possible for tax-writeoffs.

The unintended consequence of tax write-offs is almost always inflated pricing.

Happened in Housing, Aircraft, Green Cars, Solar Panels, name it... if it has a tax-break, it'll cost a lot more than it's really worth on the open market.

Airplanes "appreciated" to match the prices of both the higher liability insurance costs of the 80s and to "keep up" with the inflated tax-writeoff prices of the few new models still coming off the assembly lines.

It was just a scheme to allow those who couldn't afford a new aircraft to suddenly have it paid for by lower personal or corporate taxes. Similar to the ponzi schemes still being run by Fannie and Freddie on housing. Just a much smaller scale.
 
After the 80's, airframes actively appreciated in value. That ended some time ago, leaving owners in the grasp of increasing cost for service and parts with simultaneously decreasing value for the airframe. And yes, it is demoralizing.

600 hours after the nicest wings off restoration anyone's ever seen, my aircraft needed $2300 in repairs that took a month and they didn't even wash the thing. Another $2000 went into transponder repair, over $600 of that for shipping the thing to the repair station and driving it 20 minutes across town.

Tell me I haven't been shafted. Just try.

That's $7 per hour for those 600 hours.. If you didn't get ripped off it might be more like $5 per hour.

Are those the only expenses you've had in 600 hours? i'm guessing 3-4 annuals in that time totaling about $1000 in labor and misc expenses
 
$379 for shipping to the repair facility which is in Iowa if I recall correctly. $300 to drive it three times 20 minutes across town. Three times because the first attempt at repair was unsuccessful. I will use neither shop ever again.

In my personal experience, I've had far worse problems with avionics shops than any other type of aircraft maintenance.
 
I bought a new T-210 s/n 6345X in 1981 for ~$135k and sold it in 1999 for $179k net to me.

Did it or did it not appreciate in value?

I'd add that the airframes never really appreciated at all, it was an illusion of high inflation and free loan money, coupled with high incentives to have prices as high as possible for tax-writeoffs.

The unintended consequence of tax write-offs is almost always inflated pricing.

Happened in Housing, Aircraft, Green Cars, Solar Panels, name it... if it has a tax-break, it'll cost a lot more than it's really worth on the open market.

Airplanes "appreciated" to match the prices of both the higher liability insurance costs of the 80s and to "keep up" with the inflated tax-writeoff prices of the few new models still coming off the assembly lines.

It was just a scheme to allow those who couldn't afford a new aircraft to suddenly have it paid for by lower personal or corporate taxes. Similar to the ponzi schemes still being run by Fannie and Freddie on housing. Just a much smaller scale.
 
That's $7 per hour for those 600 hours.. If you didn't get ripped off it might be more like $5 per hour.

Are those the only expenses you've had in 600 hours? i'm guessing 3-4 annuals in that time totaling about $1000 in labor and misc expenses

Our annual usual runs $1000-$1500. We had a whopper at $2500 once because the aircraft needed a new boost pump. Some other maintenance oner the years, but not much.

Of course, the hanger is still our largest expense by a fair margin.
 
I bought a new T-210 s/n 6345X in 1981 for ~$135k and sold it in 1999 for $179k net to me.

Did it or did it not appreciate in value?

Without information on engine time, upgrades, etc... impossible question to answer.

If you did nothing but fly it and maintain airworthiness, it's a classic inflationary example. Money games. Not real value added. The engine time flown off should have significantly lowered its value, for example.

Plus it also depends on your average compensation over that timeframe assuming you had the same "job" throughout the period. If meeting your basic needs grew by the same ratio the airplane grew at, it was a wash.

What you are saying is that things are "worth" what they'll sell for today. No argument there.

My comments are related to the macro-picture monetary reindeer games being played that affect overall "worth" of all aircraft.

If they cost X per hour to operate, including acquisition costs, and X jumps significantly above the average inflation rate -- look out. It'll crash back down. Because something external is driving that.

The crash continues... Or maybe has leveled off. No crystal ball here.

Pickup trucks aren't "worth" $50K new, but that's what you'll pay for a top of the line one today.

Houses aren't "worth" $500K but in many areas there's still folks paying that mortgage while the house next door is selling for $200K today after the so-called "owners" (who never really owned anything, the bank did), walked away.

It's all relative. It's also why expressing changes in percentages has always been popular. It hides that a 5% gain on $100 is piddly, while a 5% gain on $1M is significant.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics... applies to fiscal games as much as it applies to social manipulation of people's opinions.
 
Houses aren't "worth" $500K but in many areas there's still folks paying that mortgage while the house next door is selling for $200K today after the so-called "owners" (who never really owned anything, the bank did), walked away.
I'm one of those lucky ones.... The house I just bought foreclosed for $167k. It was listed at $83k. We bid $100k to get rid of the competition (it worked :)). Then some guy with an appraiser's license said it was worth $90k, so Freddie Mac had to lower the selling price to match that. You bet I'm happy! :)

Once we get all the repairs done (not a whole lot, but time consuming), we'll be saving for a truck for my wife, then pilot lessons. :goofy:
 
The used airplane market has historically been much simpler. Overlay the Nasdaq and offset about 90 days to clear the books of deals already in process and you'll be close. It is well-documented that selling higher-priced planes is easier in a good economy than selling the same planes for much less during a recession.

The reason prices tracked upward (other than the blip surrounding 9-11) is equally simple. No new airplanes were introduced, so performance was identical and the only changes were seat-cover fabric, GPS navigator and an occasional swoosh on the paint job. As prices of new airplanes increased, used prices would track upward after the initial hit from first-year depreciation.

Tax depreciation on personal property is nothing more than a timing exercise, since all resale proceeds are taxed (recaptured) at ordinary rates. So if identical $100,000 planes are purchased by a40% bracket t/p and a zero-bracket (personal use) t/p and both are sold 6 years later for $75,000, the zero-bracket t/p loses $25,000 and the 40% t/p loses $15,000 (reciprocal of tax bracket X loss on sale).


Without information on engine time, upgrades, etc... impossible question to answer.

If you did nothing but fly it and maintain airworthiness, it's a classic inflationary example. Money games. Not real value added. The engine time flown off should have significantly lowered its value, for example.

Plus it also depends on your average compensation over that timeframe assuming you had the same "job" throughout the period. If meeting your basic needs grew by the same ratio the airplane grew at, it was a wash.

What you are saying is that things are "worth" what they'll sell for today. No argument there.

My comments are related to the macro-picture monetary reindeer games being played that affect overall "worth" of all aircraft.

If they cost X per hour to operate, including acquisition costs, and X jumps significantly above the average inflation rate -- look out. It'll crash back down. Because something external is driving that.

The crash continues... Or maybe has leveled off. No crystal ball here.

Pickup trucks aren't "worth" $50K new, but that's what you'll pay for a top of the line one today.

Houses aren't "worth" $500K but in many areas there's still folks paying that mortgage while the house next door is selling for $200K today after the so-called "owners" (who never really owned anything, the bank did), walked away.

It's all relative. It's also why expressing changes in percentages has always been popular. It hides that a 5% gain on $100 is piddly, while a 5% gain on $1M is significant.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics... applies to fiscal games as much as it applies to social manipulation of people's opinions.
 
Ben WTF? Relevance of Pelosi's bar stock and miles traveled per annum to problems in General Aviation today?
 
And there is this..........................:yikes::hairraise::sad:..

you won't see this reported on MSNBC....or ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN [/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]

I'm raising the red flag of Bulls*** on this one.

I am no fan of Nancy Pelosi, but I can find no record of this in Snopes. I searched on "USAF took Nancy's jet away", and several versions of Nancy Pelosi USAF jet airplane. No hits.

Ben, please let us know what the correct search terms for Snopes are.

-Skip

Oh, so if it is not on Snopes, I wouldn't expect it to be in CNN, MSNBC, ABC, etc.
 
Ben WTF? Relevance of Pelosi's bar stock and miles traveled per annum to problems in General Aviation today?

Yeah...... a bit off topic...... I was just comparing the cost of flying that us poor people have to pay compared to just getting elected and have the taxpayers fund our habit.......... I deleted it....
 
I'm raising the red flag of Bulls*** on this one.

I am no fan of Nancy Pelosi, but I can find no record of this in Snopes. I searched on "USAF took Nancy's jet away", and several versions of Nancy Pelosi USAF jet airplane. No hits.

Ben, please let us know what the correct search terms for Snopes are.

-Skip

Oh, so if it is not on Snopes, I wouldn't expect it to be in CNN, MSNBC, ABC, etc.

It's pretty easy to rationalize, she is no longer the speaker of the house which has the privilege of US to provide travel.
So she lost it. And Boehner does not need or want it. that's a net gain for US tax payers.

OBTW, Snopes is a Democratic Hack.
 
For people who are having trouble recruiting passengers, maybe an open bar could be an enticement. We have one. :rofl:

I do know that if I had a bar stocked that well, my brother-in-law wouldn't miss a flight (destination not important).:)
 
600 hours after the nicest wings off restoration anyone's ever seen, my aircraft needed $2300 in repairs that took a month and they didn't even wash the thing. Another $2000 went into transponder repair, over $600 of that for shipping the thing to the repair station and driving it 20 minutes across town.

Tell me I haven't been shafted. Just try.

But If I annulled it in 4-5 hours with your help, I'd be a bad A&P-IA even a worse one if I only charged you $350.00 for the inspection.

Plus the FAA would have a cow if they knew I allowed you to repair the discrepancies under my supervision.

That stuff can't be right.
 
It's pretty easy to rationalize, she is no longer the speaker of the house which has the privilege of US to provide travel.
So she lost it. And Boehner does not need or want it. that's a net gain for US tax payers.
Agreed.
OBTW, Snopes is a Democratic Hack.
Yeah, I didn't know that until recently, but read an article that told of how it's just some guy and his wife in their home, doing all their research online, and how they've gained all this "credibility."
 
It's pretty easy to rationalize, she is no longer the speaker of the house which has the privilege of US to provide travel.
So she lost it. And Boehner does not need or want it. that's a net gain for US tax payers.

OBTW, Snopes is a Democratic Hack.

Tom, you missed my point. The original article (since deleted) stated this information is listed as true by Snopes. That is a lie as far as I can tell, and I wanted to let Ben know that he had been taken in by what I believe to be just another internet screed. This was not about Snopes or the obvious truth that NP is no longer Speaker.

-Skip

edit: I guess I am guilty of this misdemeanor as well!

http://xkcd.com/386/
 
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It's pretty easy to rationalize, she is no longer the speaker of the house which has the privilege of US to provide travel.
So she lost it. And Boehner does not need or want it. that's a net gain for US tax payers.

OBTW, Snopes is a Democratic Hack.

Tom, you missed my point. The original article (since deleted) stated this information is listed as true by Snopes. That is a lie as far as I can tell, and I wanted to let Ben know that he had been taken in by what I believe to be just another internet screed. This was not about Snopes or the obvious truth that NP is no longer Speaker.

-Skip
I missed it, too, then. :redface:

I'm interested in knowing if the dollar figures given are true or not, though.
 
After the 80's, airframes actively appreciated in value. That ended some time ago, leaving owners in the grasp of increasing cost for service and parts with simultaneously decreasing value for the airframe. And yes, it is demoralizing.

600 hours after the nicest wings off restoration anyone's ever seen, my aircraft needed $2300 in repairs that took a month and they didn't even wash the thing. Another $2000 went into transponder repair, over $600 of that for shipping the thing to the repair station and driving it 20 minutes across town.

Tell me I haven't been shafted. Just try.

2k for a xponder repair sounds a little steep, and 600 for shipping (if that was just shipping) is too much. The rest sounds about right, folks forget that many shops have fixed overhead expenses like insurance, hangar rent, utilities, etc.. that cost many thousands every year.
 
But If I annulled it in 4-5 hours with your help, I'd be a bad A&P-IA even a worse one if I only charged you $350.00 for the inspection.

Tom, if you allowed a ham-fisted wrenched like me to disassemble my aircraft unsupervised, you would indeed be a bad mechanic. I am certain you wouldn't do that, though.

Plus the FAA would have a cow if they knew I allowed you to repair the discrepancies under my supervision.

That stuff can't be right.

Depends on the meaning of the world supervision. If all you do is glance at it, say "meh" and walk away, I'd have a cow. If you really give it the once over, I doubt anyone would give you a hard time.

After this horrid experience it is my hope to employ a mechanic for an owner assisted annual. I'm going to have t o move the aircraft no matter what I do, I'm not going back to that shop.
 
I missed it, too, then. :redface:

I'm interested in knowing if the dollar figures given are true or not, though.

WARNING: Thread Drift......

Maybe I should repost the article.................

I do know for a fact Pelosi said on several news shows she needs a bigger plane then the G-5 the guv was providing her. And she used the 757 or C-32, whatever the feds call it ALOT... I personally watched and listened to a few TV interviews she gave where those comments were made. Also.. the dollars figues used were WAY low... Even for a G-5, and after watching the Cheney dog and pony show for 8 years while he was VP and living here I can say with 100% confidence the aircraft costs are a small part of the total expense. The security detail for each flight ran 3-4 times the operating costs of the aircraft alone... Snopes must be BS, as they forgot to tally that important, and no doubt provided cost figure.. I would guess that 18 months total cost for her private transportation would then be close to 10 million and not 2.5..

I now return you to the regularly scheduled thread of " whats wrong with general aviation today ?" :D:wink2:
 
Tom, if you allowed a ham-fisted wrenched like me to disassemble my aircraft unsupervised, you would indeed be a bad mechanic. I am certain you wouldn't do that, though.



Depends on the meaning of the world supervision. If all you do is glance at it, say "meh" and walk away, I'd have a cow. If you really give it the once over, I doubt anyone would give you a hard time.

After this horrid experience it is my hope to employ a mechanic for an owner assisted annual. I'm going to have t o move the aircraft no matter what I do, I'm not going back to that shop.

Believe,, you'd not touch your aircraft with out proper training and direct supervision. (even owner maintenance)

The most of my month is spent teaching owner maintenance, because a savvy owner is my best customer.

It protects me and you to have 2 people who know what the he-- they are doing.
 
OBTW, Snopes is a Democratic Hack.

I've never seen a story on Snopes which lacked objectivity. I'd love for you to point out some examples where they have been less than forthright.

I had this same discussion with my aging father a while back. Some friend of his had forwarded him an e-mail diatribe against Snopes. Best I could tell, it was like all of those other e-mail diatribes my dad's friends pass around - just enough truth to make the unsuspecting buy-in, but if you look a little deeper, it was mostly conjecture, misrepresentation, and half truth.
 
Let's keep this one out of spin zone, shall we?
 
Have we owners been screwed so hard so many times by our CFI, FBO, A&P, and parts suppliers that we now must get screwed to think we are getting a good deal.

The replies in Pay for parts up front is getting me to think that.

There can't be a good deal in aviation or some will think that the service provider is trying to pull some thing over on us.

no wonder why the E-AB concept has such a great following.

Thoughts ?

You bet, I don't mind paying but I'm not accepting no return on glass investment with as good condition of an airframe as you can get though. So it's money that's holding it back.

I totally look forward to putting it into owner experimental; those words from the FAA, are good to hear.
 
I don't think anything is wrong with GA today.

I look at some of the aircraft for sale today and wonder why everyone isn't running out buying one. Prices have sure come down over the last few years AND I see more and more aircraft that someone has already put some money into upgrading.

On the experimental, LSA side, wow. I actually want a Carbon Cub more than an original Cub. That is a change at least for me.

99.9% of the time I am getting amazing service from the FBO's. Epps at KMEM was amazing last trip, we felt like part of Nancy Pelosi's entourage (thread consistency:wink2:).

I can get my aircraft worked on at the dealer cheaper than my car!!! Independents are even less.

People are on here bitching about $1500 annuals. Please. It will cost you about as much to put brakes on a Toyota Corolla or have a plumber install a new sink.

I look at all the $100K cars stuck in traffic right beside the $1500 beaters and think of what that same person could have had in an airplane for the same money.

Gas prices are high. They are, but you can still find plenty of cross country birds that get fuel mileage in the teens. On a straight line vs. road basis that isn't bad.

Not a bad time at all IMO. I'm just thankful we all have the chance to fly around wherever we want to go. Amazing when you think about it.
 
The used airplane market has historically been much simpler. Overlay the Nasdaq and offset about 90 days to clear the books of deals already in process and you'll be close. It is well-documented that selling higher-priced planes is easier in a good economy than selling the same planes for much less during a recession.

Agreed Wayne. But I put the monetary cycle square in the "reindeer games" category. Booms and busts are driven by greed and fear waves.

And NASDAQ!? Should'a used the S&P index if you didn't want me to get cranky. Market Makers indeed. NASDAQ. There's some shady stuff going on there. Tech companies love NASDAQ. Of course, NYSE isn't exactly clean either.

Real world story of "reindeer games" today:

Sat through another 401k sales pitch today at work. I qualify now that I've been there a year. Been looking forward to this latest sales pitch, since I've been through tons of them with all the company name changes. Wanted to see the offering.

Of course, first off... It always struck me as interesting that companies would allow employees to sit around for a couple of hours getting pitched by salespeople for something that costs them money in down productivity and what-not.

Funny how they never mention that the amount "IRS defined high earners" in a company can contribute -- is directly related to how many dollars the "low earners" put in. Hmm. Motivation, defined. :)

Or that the "company match" was probably paid for by the last round of layoffs so there's an enticement to suck more of those "low-earner" dollars in. (Most companies will say their match is to remain competitive with their competitor's compensation. What they don't say is that they're talking about the "high-earner"'s compensation.)

They also pooh-poohed the idea of self-directed investments inside a 401k. Gosh, funny... I have that in my old one. Was one of the people who pounded the table with HR for it too.

Strike one against rollover! Haha.

But they suuuuure wanted my name on that "might be interested in a rollover" list. Mo' money "under management" for them. More fees. Nothing new here. Moving along...

No mention of any analysis to see whether leaving it where it is would better, Net/Net. Lots of mentions of intangibles like having less statements to keep track of.

Strike one for true customer service.

It even took someone in the crowd to mention that one should NEVER have the rollover disbursement paid out to oneself personally to avoid IRS nightmares. They didn't bring it up at all other than to flippantly say they'd "take care of everything... just put your name on the list. Droid 135431. Hush. You're scaring the newbies."

This one even pitched a "fully managed" option where they do ALL of the choosing of what you're invested in inside the 401k and charge you a significant management fee to do it. Nice. Making money on both ends. The fees were rediculous.

I almost laughed out loud when their PowerPoint slide came up. At least I was sitting close enough to read the tiny fine print at the bottom.

"Of course this is all detailed in the four-color bound book you all received but won't read... Oh and we don't detail whether or not the funds in the book have any short term trading penalties, but you can look that up on our website."

That woukd be the website where you have to sign up and have an account to access them. Or you can call on the phone for a paper prospectus for the 25 or so funds they had in the offering... LOL! A little light reading material.

There were quite a few folks with "deer in the headlights" looks at this point. The "you're going to work forever" scare slides went by earlier. Technically accurate, so no beef with those. They assumed 3.5% inflation over 20 years according to the fine print. My eyeballs love fine print on PowerPoint from across a room.

And there were a few who were challenging the pitch man about his pitch. He glossed over and kept moving. "Talk to me later."

Then a new one I hadn't seen before. A little rah-rah about "Equal Value" funds for "very conservative" investors. Ooh. Yay. A fund that beats bank savings, but is earning two points below the average inflation rate!

Sign me up! :rofl: Losing money slowly is apparently "conservative".

Strike two, customer service category.

This company is known as one of the better ones. P.T. Barnum would have been proud. Thus... Reindeer games.

These people were hucksters of the modern variety. They pitched every single fee based configuration of a 401k plan that they could. Death by a thousand paper cuts.

The guy had a nice Oxford shirt and Tweed jacket though. He must be a financial genius just waiting to make me money. Hahaha.

(They also unsuccessfully tried to cover up that the poor guy was in training. His handler... ahem... peer... sat front-right and filled in the SEC required stuff that he forgot.)

:)

Markets are driven by these people's bosses and financial company owners. Reindeer games.

Jamie Diamond is going to "apologize" to Congress I hear for the recent JP Morgan behavior.

Aww. Isn't that sweet?

So...

All that to say "you're right". It's a timing game. But that timing too often favors the hucksters. They pitch the long side to average investors while they play the long side and the short side. I didn't see any short side investment opportunities for proper hedging available in their pitch. ;)
 
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