What's wrong with Cirrus Pilots?

So are his statistics wrong? SR22s don't have "a higher fatal accident rate than most similar airplanes from other manufacturers?"

Dick’s numbers are’t in error but his conclusion is. Analyzing aircraft safety is very difficult due to poor data. The FAA has some estimates for fleet hours but not by type. They key words in the post above are “similar aircraft.” For example, training flights are, on average, safer. If you remove training flights from the data the accident rate for GA aircraft would go up. The result is that there is no category for fast single engine piston aircraft. The closest the Nall report gets is single-engine piston. For example, relatively new aircraft are flown significantly more per year than older aircraft. Not all types are flown the same per year. I tried to use Flightaware to look at relative flight hours. This is clearly invalid comparing a Cub to an SR22. I do think it gives relative rates for similar mission aircraft. The result was that if chute saves are moved to fatals an SR22 looked like a Bonanza in accident profile. That data was taken several years ago. I satisfied myself and haven’t redone the data recently. Why do you hear about more Cirrus accidents? A recent Flightaware snapshot points out why.

SR22 51
C172 49
BE36 37
C182 25
BE35 23
BE58 23
PA32 23
M20P 13
BE33 8
SR20 7
DA40 6

An interesting article accessible to all is this one. It dates from 2008 but I think it is still relvant.

Ask that question of the actuaries -- it really is.

Check out insurance costs. You are incorrect. A Bonanza of the same hull value costs the same or more to insure. I checked.

The jury's still out on this. If Cap'n Ron comes back with proof that the Cirrus was spun, the I think Mr Collins may be facing libel for regurgitating OWT considering that he's considered a "credible" source in the aviation community.

Ron is correct. Dale Klapmeier wanted CAPS to be an option. He finally acquiesced to his brother, Alan, who felt strongly it should be standard. For European certification the aircraft had to go through a spin sequence which it passed. That spin sequence was not the full set required for FAA certification, however.

What surprises me is how big of a deal people make this. Look at the accident record and show me an accident where spin recovery was the issue. Furthermore, are people aware that the 737 wasn’t spin certified? Twins aren’t spin certified. Dick should know this.

Cirrus aircraft are excellent in the stall. I have stalled Cirrus and Columbia planes and done what you shouldn’t do i.e. left and right turns while stalled. However, I would not want to be full power and yank up hard so that both wing structures (not just inner) stalled. BTW, my first full power stall in a Cirrus did freak me out. There is so much power you are almost flat on your back when the plane stalls.

I've not seen any significant number of base-final stall/spin accidents with Cirri -- not any, to my recollection.

There have been at least two base to final turn events that resulted in a stall and crash. The Lindsay, OK crash is one and there was one at a fly-in community airport.

However I'd buy the diamond first because of the folding rear seat. To me the lack of removable or flat folding rear seats on the cirrus is an issue.

Cirrus seats fold down. The ones just introduced are easier. Prior to the new seats, the pin was hidden and not nearly as easy to use as the Columbia.

When people ask why pilots are getting into trouble in Cirrus aircraft they often focus on CAPS. Human factors studies done on automobile safety indicate otherwise. CAPS, airbags, cabin integrity etc. fall most closely into the passive safety category. While CAPS isn't completely passive it doesn't affect the way the plane flies and isn't in use during a normal flight. It has been shown that airbags and side impact rails don’t change how people drive. Better, brakes, bigger engines, bigger tires etc. do. Cirrus aircraft are roomy and comfortable as small planes go. They have large GPS screens and great autopilots. All of this encourages long trips. When transitioning to the Cirrus there were two items that hit me in the face. The first was the need for approach planning and speed management. No longer could I enter the pattern WOT. My instructor said “20 inches manifold pressure when 20nm out.” Secondly, weather planning had to become a serious factor for every flight. No longer could I look up and say “weather is fine.” A good example is a recent crash. It was a club plane and the pilot was just recently checked out. He was also low time overall. Low time overall and low time in type are two red flags. He was a VFR only pilot who wound up in the clouds. He didn’t turn around. I suspect he didn’t know how to use the autopilot. He was more worried about getting stuck on the ground than getting out of trouble. He didn't pull the red handle when he became disoriented.

I see a lot of posts about hand flying skills. Certainly they are important. However, as the crash mentioned above shows, it is just as important to really understand and use the systems available in the plane. What is really sad is the number of crashes where CAPS should have been the choice. Systems don’t help if you don’t use them.
 
Oh I'm aware of the folding seats on the cirrus, BUT they don't fold flat and the floor under them is not load bearing.

That's the extent of my gripe.
 
Wasn't the most recent Cirrus crash the guy who turned too hard base-to-final after the controller asked him to, instead of saying "unable" or keeping the speed up?

(I keep seeing the comment that there haven't been *any* base-to-final accidents, and that's actually the most recent accident I can remember in a Cirrus.)

The last one I remember is the VFR only pilot that flew into IMC near Chicago last Thanksgiving weekend to take his daughter and daughter's friend back to college.
 
Pairing up a slick, fast, and possibly unforgiving, airplane with a marginally proficient pilot is never a good combination. And you can double down if that pilot has "god syndrome".

So I'll go out on a limb here a little to make my point. If we take the latest generation SR22 G3, I would say it is as easy, or nearly so, as any common trainer to fly.

One exception being speed, which can be easily dealt with using the new composite prop speed brake. If you haven't flown the new prop it really is amazing, pull the power and you slow down really fast. Much more so than any high drag single you can think of. This will really help a low time pilot get down to pattern speed when they come in too hot.

Go out with a new pilot and stall a SR22. Complete non-event, straight, turns, power on/off, doesn't matter, its always in control. Now take the same student up in a 172, the first full stall will probably scare the sh*t out of them. Especially if the ball is out a little (as it surely will be).

The only thing that is harder on a SR-22 IMO is the trim. There just isn't much control feedback so trimming it will take some time.

Engine management is as simple as a 172. Compare that to any three lever, cowl flap, 2700 RPM HP bird.

So for those that have flown the Cirrus, what makes them harder than a trainer and unforgiving for a low time pilot????
 
Re what makes them harder

Speed and avionics. Both are good if you can handle them and I only mention the avionics because it's possible to get overwhelmed by the amount of useful information presented.

The issue I had on my first few flights was in getting too slow, and that's only because I'm used to my nice high lift 182 wing that flies slower. The cirrus handled well at low speed, but I had a tendency to get too slow too soon on approach. Nothing a good check out cant cure!
 
Coming in high and too fast and expecting to get down to pattern altitude
 
Re what makes them harder

Speed and avionics. Both are good if you can handle them and I only mention the avionics because it's possible to get overwhelmed by the amount of useful information presented.

The issue I had on my first few flights was in getting too slow, and that's only because I'm used to my nice high lift 182 wing that flies slower. The cirrus handled well at low speed, but I had a tendency to get too slow too soon on approach. Nothing a good check out cant cure!
Actually, compare it to a recent vintage trainer, and the avionics aren't that different! A typical recent vintage trainer like the G1000 172, for example, will be lacking some of the engine management stuff, but other than that, I think it's just about as complex.
 
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Actually, compare it to a recent vintage trainer, and the avionics aren't that different! A typical recent vintage trainer like the G1000 172, for example, will be lacking some of the engine management stuff, but other than that, I think it's just about as complex.

True but IIRC the perspective avionics suite is standard on the 22, but the g1000 is an option in 172s
 
Alexb2000 - The trim stinks. I wish they would put a small wheel in it with an optical encoder and mimic the trim on a Cessna.

What makes them harder is the missions pilots get sucked into. When I flew a 172 I would go out and fly to local airports. The trip from LZU to MOB was a big deal and painful for the family. If there was a headwind we saved little time in return for being hot and cramped. In an SR22 the trip is short and comfortable. I recently took a friend flying just for fun. We weren't headed anywhere but I decided to show her some pretty countryside so I headed up over the Appalachians. We left LZU north of Atlanta. Later she asked where we were. I replied "West of Roanoke, VA." The Cirrus tempts pilots to fly farther and in more challenging conditions. A great AP can make you feel your IMC skills are much better than they are.

Duncan - I think avionics are about more than just sucking your head into the cockpit. If you use the avionics you have to know how to get back to a known place when things don't work. This is poorly taught by most instructors. Consider a 2002 Cirrus with Sandel and a Garmin 430. When and how the Sandel auto slews can mess you up. It has to be in GPSS until the final is intercepted or it doesn't slew. If all goes well it then shifts to VLOC. Fortunately the first time that didn't happen it was a VFR night. I then went out and did a number of practice flights until I figured out what I had done wrong. It had always worked with the instructor onboard. Oh, and when you don't auto slew, you get tiny bars on the side for the CDI rather than the full bars. There are similar issues flying a G1000 or Avidyne R9.

Secondly, the avionics are part of the design of the plane that encourage more challenging flights. If people are in search of a safe plane consider the following avionics adjustments:

- remove XM weather so you don't think you are the weather king
- remove GPS so you don't think you can go direct through that mountain
- remove the VOR so you don't think there are highways in the sky so it's like driving a car
- remove the AI so you don't think you can fly in clouds.

:)

In cars studies show that better brakes, tires and suspension make people want to drive faster so that risk rises back to where it was before the changes.

For those who think Cirrus accidents are an example of the "doctor effect" get prepared to be proven wrong. Used Cirrus prices are down to where they are great buys and two or three regular individuals can partner and get one. If the doctor effect is real then safety will improve. I don't think it will. I think we will keep killing ourselves in the same ways whether we are millionaires or regular working stiffs.
 
G1000 is standard now in Cessnas. I believe the steam gauges are an option with a higher price, due to the increased labor required to put them in when the assembly process is optimized for the G1000.
 
G1000 is standard now in Cessnas. I believe the steam gauges are an option with a higher price, due to the increased labor required to put them in when the assembly process is optimized for the G1000.

I did not know that, thanks for the update
 
The only thing that is harder on a SR-22 IMO is the trim. There just isn't much control feedback so trimming it will take some time.

I often wondered about this issue in the Cirrus. I would think control feedback is a very important characteristic of any airframe design, especially when flying slow as in the pattern. That "mushy" feeling when you get too slow can tell you a lot before its too late.
 
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Don't worry a cirrus gets PLENTY mushy, more so than anything else I've flown. Probably because everything else would have been fully stalled.
 
I often wondered about this issue in the Cirrus. I would think control feedback is a very important characteristic of any airframe design, especially when flying slow as in the pattern. That "mushy" feeling when you get too slow can tell you a lot before its too late.

As Paul said it sucks. I agree the feel is very important. Given that limitation I fly them by the numbers. Of course the other side of it is that you could pull power to idle, hold the stick full aft, and still probably make a very survivable landing. All I can say is that some of the accidents make me wonder what kind of ham fisted flying was going on to get such an easy to fly airplane that far out of control, I don't know? I just don't believe it's the airplane.
 
I'm remembering this from a discussion at my flight school last year. So I think it's accurate but if someone has different information I won't be surprised.
Steam gauges don't appear on their current price list, even as an option.
 
In cars studies show that better brakes, tires and suspension make people want to drive faster so that risk rises back to where it was before the changes.
Happen to have a reference?

G1000 is standard now in Cessnas. I believe the steam gauges are an option with a higher price, due to the increased labor required to put them in when the assembly process is optimized for the G1000.
Imagine someone walking into a Cessna dealership with a pair of overalls, straw hat saying in a heavy southern drawl:

Buyer: "I don't wont one a dem dere new fandangled glass doohickeys"
Sales: "The round gauges are extra, sir"

:rofl:
 
Happen to have a reference?

I may have one at home from an accident investigation seminar I went to. I don't have it readily accessible, though. IIRC, the gist was that people's risk tolerance was a constant. They engage in riskier behavior (e.g. Driving faster) to compensate for risk reduction measures (e.g. wider lanes, seat belts, etc.)
 
I'd like to see this. I'm going to go on a limb beforehand and hypothesize that the conclusions are wrong, based on the mistaken belief that the human being is predisposed to an internal risk 'thermometer' of sorts.

Wider lanes contribute to a distortion of the sense of speed. It's why the striped spacing changes on Interstates to change the driver's sense of speed (which is primarily visual then sound then tactile IIRC).
 
Happen to have a reference?

You can start here. The concept is risk homeostasis. Not mentioned in the brief Wikipedia is the effect of airbags and stronger crash structures. I don't have a handy reference for this. The findings were, however, that hidden safety i.e. not ones you sensed as you drove, didn't change the way you drove and therefore had the intended safety effect. This is in contrast to antilock brakes where drivers can observe the difference and adjust their driving accordingly as per the Munich taxicab study.

BTW, I do need to clear one thing up in a spirit of full disclosure. Other Cirrus pilots can load their slings and get out the arrows. CAPS does affect my flying. I feel better flying over low overcast. Prior to flying a Cirrus I got very nervous when flying over 0/0 ground conditions since I felt I had no out. Similarly, at night I stayed within gliding distance of roads that had adequate light for a forced landing. Now I go where I want. I feel the likelihood of an engine out is low and if it happens and it is all black below then I pull. I guess it's a little like flying a twin. OK, flame on. I know the only answer accepted by most of the Cirrus community is that it makes no difference.
 
Thank you for the link. Count me in the "risk homeostasis" critic camp.

Thank you also for your disclosure about your change in flying habits.

I reviewed a lot of data before getting my cert and discovered that risk is statistically insignificant at night vs day. It's pilots that are more dangerous at night, not airplanes.

I am not afraid of night flying, but my wife prefers daytime, so....I digress.
 
Thank you for the link. Count me in the "risk homeostasis" critic

Ah, so whether Model T or Ferrari Italia, you drive the same speed thereby using the improved braking and cornering of the Ferrari to solely to enhance safety. Be wary of us risk homeostasis types who might drive faster in the Ferrari. :)
 
Another pilot and myself had a conversation via PM using an article with published data questioning the Cirrus safety record. Our conclusions were that Cirrus accident rates were 'on par' with GA with the SR20 doing worse. The results of our informal research and discussion are inconclusive however, because there was an unexplained spike in the data from the DA40 (suspiciously low accident rate per hours used).

After more than 40 years of flying and 1500 hrs in my DA20, I can tell you that Diamonds are the best marriage of safety and efficiency I've ever seen, bar none.
 
Ah, so whether Model T or Ferrari Italia, you drive the same speed thereby using the improved braking and cornering of the Ferrari to solely to enhance safety. Be wary of us risk homeostasis types who might drive faster in the Ferrari. :)

I also do not accept the notion that + speed (in of itself) = + risk.
 
Go racing, I used to think as you do:wink2:

I do motorcycle trackdays actually. Speed only increases the damage done if you have an incident. Speed is not the cause of an incident. It's a leap of illogic that have caused people to interpret speed = danger, implied by our system of traffic laws.

There is sufficient data to show that it is possible in America to remove speed limits and most people will drive sensibly. I do not advocate that it is appropriate on every road, but certainly it is not appropriate to have speed limits on everystretch of pavement either (as we do).
 
I do motorcycle trackdays actually. Speed only increases the damage done if you have an incident. Speed is not the cause of an incident. It's a leap of illogic that have caused people to interpret speed = danger, implied by our system of traffic laws.

There is sufficient data to show that it is possible in America to remove speed limits and most people will drive sensibly. I do not advocate that it is appropriate on every road, but certainly it is not appropriate to have speed limits on everystretch of pavement either (as we do).

Very goog observation, however, the laws have to be written to the 80%.
 
Another pilot and myself had a conversation via PM using an article with published data questioning the Cirrus safety record.
If you are referring to our message exchanges, the information involved was from a recent Aviation Consumer magazine article here (not available for free.) I've created the following table from some (but not all) of the entries they provided in their article:

[row][cell]Aircraft[/cell][cell]Overall Accidents per 100,000 hrs[/cell][cell]Aircraft[/cell][cell]Accidents with Fatalities per 100,000 hrs[/cell][/row]

[row][cell]Diamond DA40[/cell][cell]1.19[/cell][cell]Diamond DA40[/cell][cell]0.35[/cell][/row][row][cell]Cirrus SR22[/cell][cell]3.3[/cell][cell]Cessna 172[/cell][cell]0.45[/cell][/row][row][cell]Cessna 182[/cell][cell]3.3[/cell][cell]Cessna 182[/cell][cell]0.69[/cell][/row][row][cell]Columbia/Corvalis[/cell][cell]3.9[/cell][cell]Columbia/Corvalis[/cell][cell]1.0[/cell][/row][row][cell]Cessna 172[/cell][cell]4.3[/cell][cell]GA Average[/cell][cell]1.2[/cell][/row][row][cell]GA Average[/cell][cell]6.3[/cell][cell]Cirrus SR22[/cell][cell]1.5[/cell][/row][row][cell]Mooney M20[/cell][cell]6.6[/cell][cell]Mooney M20[/cell][cell]1.9[/cell][/row]

Of 31 CAPS deployments, they found that 12 of the aircraft had been repaired and returned to service.

Deployments as low as 300 ft and up to 187 knots have been successful. But one accident with deployment at 270 knots failed. Cirrus says that 920 feet is needed for full canopy opening and demonstrated deployment at 133 knots.

Aviation Consumer analyzed all the Cirrus accidents and estimates that nearly half the fatal accidents might have been prevented by CAPS deployments.

Oddly, no one seems to ask "What's wrong with Mooney Pilots?"
 
Oddly, no one seems to ask "What's wrong with Mooney Pilots?"
At a guess, Mooney pilots are cheap people who cannot afford to fly enough to maintain even the proficency of an average Cirrus pilot, yet it's a reasonably fast travelling airplane that can be flown IFR. A poor man's Bonanza really. I heard stories of scud running just like the one that killed a Cirrus guy in Illinois just recently, and getting caught in utility wires. Or take the one who tried to outclimb a cloud bank in Watsonville last June and crashed into a hospital. I mean dude why?! Only needed to stay on instruments for 30 seconds at the most.
 
I also do not accept the notion that + speed (in of itself) = + risk.

I think you misunderstand the concept. For a given speed the Ferrari has more handling margin than the Model T. The tendency is to increase speed to where the margin reduces back to your acceptable level. Do you disagree that the faster a car goes around a corner the closer it comes to its adhesion limits? Do you really think that 200 mph on a highway is the same as 30? I hate our present speed limits too but I recognize that speed decreases margin and thereby increases risk. Getting back to planes, I think it is perfectly fine for a pilot to buy a more capable plane because he wants to take on more challenging missions. I do think that, as pilots, we need to be keenly aware of how we are balancing mission and risk. I once heard a pilot say "You don't buy a twin to stay in the pattern." The same applies to high performance singles. Unfortunately some people do buy Ferraris to go no faster than 55. I hate those guys. What a waste. :)
 
I think you misunderstand the concept. For a given speed the Ferrari has more handling margin than the Model T. The tendency is to increase speed to where the margin reduces back to your acceptable level. Do you disagree that the faster a car goes around a corner the closer it comes to its adhesion limits? Do you really think that 200 mph on a highway is the same as 30? I hate our present speed limits too but I recognize that speed decreases margin and thereby increases risk. Getting back to planes, I think it is perfectly fine for a pilot to buy a more capable plane because he wants to take on more challenging missions. I do think that, as pilots, we need to be keenly aware of how we are balancing mission and risk. I once heard a pilot say "You don't buy a twin to stay in the pattern." The same applies to high performance singles. Unfortunately some people do buy Ferraris to go no faster than 55. I hate those guys. What a waste. :)
:yeahthat::cheers:
 
A good friend who is also a DPE bought a used SR-22 a few years ago, and somehow gained access to an accident database for Cirri. He said the accident rate was significantly inflated due to a high number of prop and tail strikes that were in large part due to the landing gear dimensions and placement. He said the new design provided more clearance and accident rates have decreased accordingly. He also said his CJ-1 would land in a shorter distance than his SR-22.

So for those that have flown the Cirrus, what makes them harder than a trainer and unforgiving for a low time pilot????
 
He also said his CJ-1 would land in a shorter distance than his SR-22.
There has been a tendency for instructors to train pilots to use excessive speeds in the Cirrus. If instead of the factory default 80 knots you use 77 less one know for every 100 lbs under max gross then landing distances are reasonable. It isn't a bush plane by any means. Like many other low wing planes, bringing it in hot can result in a lot of float in ground effect. The POH can be downloaded here. The field lengths in it are reasonable.

The G3 increased prop clearance. Starting with the 22T (not TN), a shock was added to the front strut structure to further reduce PIO.
 
If you are referring to our message exchanges, the information involved was from a recent Aviation Consumer magazine article here (not available for free.) I've created the following table from some (but not all) of the entries they provided in their article:

[row][cell]Aircraft[/cell][cell]Overall Accidents per 100,000 hrs[/cell][cell]Aircraft[/cell][cell]Accidents with Fatalities per 100,000 hrs[/cell][/row]

[row][cell]Diamond DA40[/cell][cell]1.19[/cell][cell]Diamond DA40[/cell][cell]0.35[/cell][/row][row][cell]Cirrus SR22[/cell][cell]3.3[/cell][cell]Cessna 172[/cell][cell]0.45[/cell][/row][row][cell]Cessna 182[/cell][cell]3.3[/cell][cell]Cessna 182[/cell][cell]0.69[/cell][/row][row][cell]Columbia/Corvalis[/cell][cell]3.9[/cell][cell]Columbia/Corvalis[/cell][cell]1.0[/cell][/row][row][cell]Cessna 172[/cell][cell]4.3[/cell][cell]GA Average[/cell][cell]1.2[/cell][/row][row][cell]GA Average[/cell][cell]6.3[/cell][cell]Cirrus SR22[/cell][cell]1.5[/cell][/row][row][cell]Mooney M20[/cell][cell]6.6[/cell][cell]Mooney M20[/cell][cell]1.9[/cell][/row]

Of 31 CAPS deployments, they found that 12 of the aircraft had been repaired and returned to service.

Deployments as low as 300 ft and up to 187 knots have been successful. But one accident with deployment at 270 knots failed. Cirrus says that 920 feet is needed for full canopy opening and demonstrated deployment at 133 knots.

Aviation Consumer analyzed all the Cirrus accidents and estimates that nearly half the fatal accidents might have been prevented by CAPS deployments.

Oddly, no one seems to ask "What's wrong with Mooney Pilots?"

Where is the NTSB data for the above statistics. After all only the NTSB tracks all the aviation accidents and not Aviation Consumer. I found in the past Aviation Consumer to be in gross error on their assessments. Unlike the FAA or the NTSB Aviation Consumer does not have the resources or knowledge to make any proper evaluation of aviation products.

José
 
Where is the NTSB data for the above statistics. After all only the NTSB tracks all the aviation accidents and not Aviation Consumer. I found in the past Aviation Consumer to be in gross error on their assessments. Unlike the FAA or the NTSB Aviation Consumer does not have the resources or knowledge to make any proper evaluation of aviation products.

José

You would have to read the article to understand the significance of the data otherwise, the logic of the statement is specious. It is not tracked the same as NTSB and the data came from multiple sources.
 
Where is the NTSB data for the above statistics. After all only the NTSB tracks all the aviation accidents and not Aviation Consumer. I found in the past Aviation Consumer to be in gross error on their assessments. Unlike the FAA or the NTSB Aviation Consumer does not have the resources or knowledge to make any proper evaluation of aviation products.

José

Actually Aviation Consumer is the only credible source of reviews on many aviation products. From landing lights to chocks to oil I don't know where else to turn. As for aircraft reviews they are better than AOPA Pilot and Flying. When it comes to accident data the FAA and NTSB provide no guidance as to flight hours by type. COPA has, at times, put together fairly good numbers for the SR22 but that's meaningless without comparable numbers for similar mission aircraft. While I disagree with Aviation Consumer's numbers I respect that their effort is probably as good as anyone's.
 
You would have to read the article to understand the significance of the data otherwise, the logic of the statement is specious. It is not tracked the same as NTSB and the data came from multiple sources.
Besides, NTSB data is full of errors. There is no record of N273TE crash, for example. Airplane destroyed, 2 people died, but the only source of data is AirSafety wiki.
 
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