Whats up(I mean down) with Cher 140 prices?

D

docmirror

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Man, just blasting through BS and TAP and there's a pile of mid 60s 140s priced around $20k or less. Sure they aren't cream puffs but that's a lot of plane for not much money. If a guy can find one without corrosion issues and ~200 hours left on the engine, it'd make a great plane to get the cert in.

It's kind of depressing really. Wish prices on what I already own were going up. Looks like I'll have my old bird a long, long time.
 
docmirror said:
Man, just blasting through BS and TAP and there's a pile of mid 60s 140s priced around $20k or less. Sure they aren't cream puffs but that's a lot of plane for not much money. If a guy can find one without corrosion issues and ~200 hours left on the engine, it'd make a great plane to get the cert in.

It's kind of depressing really. Wish prices on what I already own were going up. Looks like I'll have my old bird a long, long time.
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I ended up selling mine for $20K with 200 hours on the 160HP engine (not left on the engine). The red stripes were faded to pink, and the radio was an Icom A200, but mechanically it was perfect.

Pretty sad considering I paid $17K then spent $19K on the engine.
 
docmirror said:
Man, just blasting through BS and TAP and there's a pile of mid 60s 140s priced around $20k or less. Sure they aren't cream puffs but that's a lot of plane for not much money. If a guy can find one without corrosion issues and ~200 hours left on the engine, it'd make a great plane to get the cert in.

It's kind of depressing really. Wish prices on what I already own were going up. Looks like I'll have my old bird a long, long time.
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For 20k, it better be a cream puff. :D
 
Funny, that's exactly the first plane I've been looking at. I've always liked them for some reason, far prefer flying the school's tired, worn out, carbed 140 over the nearly new g1000, injected 172...

If I can get wrapped up soon and line up a hangar locally, this one might be in contention... http://www.gardneraircraft.com/planeviewpic.php?id=177 big $$ for what it is though LOL.
 
I owned one 20-some years ago and have about 400 hours in them, and currently instruct in one several times a week now. I flew mine all over the Midwest, VFR and IFR. They're a great little flying machine. I often recommend them to prospective pilots looking for a low-cost trainer/time-builder. Sad that they're selling for barely more than I sold mine for twenty years ago.
 
JHW said:
why is it sad? How many threads are going about escalating costs putting aviation out of reach ?
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It is definately sad. I picked mine up for $25K 2 1/2 years ago. I wasn't expecting appreciation, but still... They are good planes.
 
JHW said:
why is it sad? How many threads are going about escalating costs putting aviation out of reach ?
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I was thinking that as well. It is sad for the guy that purchased his at say $30,000 at the height of the market but then it was sad when I sold my first home for a loss.

I absolutly love Cherokees. They fly great, are docile and super trainers and just a lot of fun.
 
The problem with a 20k cherokee is that once you get that $6000 estimate to fix some dinglywag on the engine, the economics of that 'cheap airplane' are suddenly pretty difficult. Once you are in a financial position to absorb the monthly expenses of owning an aircraft outright, the jump from a 20k aircraft to a 40k aircraft is not that big.

If someone runs across one that is low-time on the airframe and pretty original (panel not hacked up), let me know. Dont care much about the radios, dont care much about the paint.
 
What's happening is, for aircraft with hull vales in the 20s, the 2020 WAAS /Quitter upgrades must dont make financial sense. We will see a lot of these hulls allowed to go to total runout and then boneyard in the coming years.
 
weilke said:
The problem with a 20k cherokee is that once you get that $6000 estimate to fix some dinglywag on the engine, the economics of that 'cheap airplane' are suddenly pretty difficult. Once you are in a financial position to absorb the monthly expenses of owning an aircraft outright, the jump from a 20k aircraft to a 40k aircraft is not that big.

If someone runs across one that is low-time on the airframe and pretty original (panel not hacked up), let me know. Dont care much about the radios, dont care much about the paint.
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20K should put you in a solid airframe and low to mid time engine early 60s vintage "B" model 140/150. You shouldn't be realizing a 6K annual on it, unless you buy it sight unseen. the B models have the shotgun panel, horrid exhaust, extremely inefficient cowling and wheel pants that do nothing. The early ones aren't very sought after due to the panel and the bad aerodynamics that make them slower than the rest of the fleet.

I sold a pampered (all service bulletins performed etc..) and cared for /G equipped one with 7/10 paint and 600 SMOH for less than 20K. That plane didn't need a thing, new interior, new hoses (all of em), new baffling, IFR GPS (KLN89B), new KY197 comm, like new KX155, new CDI, all new gyros, new baffling, new encoder, tons of other "little things" i.e fuel pump replaced, new throttle cable, new AstroTech clock, valve cover seals, didn't leak a drop of oil, etc...

The only thing I would have done to it was come up with SOMETHING better than the stock piper exhaust and the windows were getting a little crazed...
 
Sounds like someone got a great airplane pretty cheap, Rusty.
 
LDJones said:
Sounds like someone got a great airplane pretty cheap, Rusty.
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He got a fair price on a good plane. Not cheap, it's just the market.

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bbchien said:
What's happening is, for aircraft with hull vales in the 20s, the 2020 WAAS /Quitter upgrades must dont make financial sense. We will see a lot of these hulls allowed to go to total runout and then boneyard in the coming years.
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bingo. The ADS-B nonsense is one of the big reasons I sold my cherokee 140.
 
bartmc said:
20K should put you in a solid airframe and low to mid time engine early 60s vintage "B" model 140/150. You shouldn't be realizing a 6K annual on it, unless you buy it sight unseen.
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ANY certified aircraft, no matter how nice, may end up with a 6k bill at any given time. If 20k is your aircraft budget, a 6k bill is a bigger problem than if you are living in a 80 or 200k world.

Now, if I come home with another airplane....I think I'll be in serious wife trouble.

And that was a really nice plane you sold.
 
weilke said:
ANY certified aircraft, no matter how nice, may end up with a 6k bill at any given time. If 20k is your aircraft budget, a 6k bill is a bigger problem than if you are living in a 80 or 200k world.

Now, if I come home with another airplane....I think I'll be in serious wife trouble.

And that was a really nice plane you sold.
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MAY cost you that. With a Cherokee, it's fairly easy to do your due diligence and hedge your bet against it to where it shouldn't. !@#$ does happen though.
 
bbchien said:
What's happening is, for aircraft with hull vales in the 20s, the 2020 WAAS /Quitter upgrades must dont make financial sense. We will see a lot of these hulls allowed to go to total runout and then boneyard in the coming years.
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if it actually happens, I'll empty the panel and stop flying IFR. I don't need a transponder to go most of the places we go.
 
JHW said:
if it actually happens, I'll empty the panel and stop flying IFR. I don't need a transponder to go most of the places we go.
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By the time it becomes mandatory, there will be a $2600 integrated box that will be sufficient for compliance.
 
Compare this to 1998, when I bought a '75 Warrior for $32,500 (!), flew the pants off of it, and sold it four years later -- for $40,000.

*sigh*
 
JHW said:
if it actually happens, I'll empty the panel and stop flying IFR. I don't need a transponder to go most of the places we go.
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This is my plan. I and many other GA fliers are going to be squeezed out of more airspace. ADS-B does almost nothing for me, and very little for others who might hit me.

Also, this is not just a Cher 140 issue.
 
docmirror said:
Man, just blasting through BS and TAP and there's a pile of mid 60s 140s priced around $20k or less. Sure they aren't cream puffs but that's a lot of plane for not much money. If a guy can find one without corrosion issues and ~200 hours left on the engine, it'd make a great plane to get the cert in.

It's kind of depressing really. Wish prices on what I already own were going up. Looks like I'll have my old bird a long, long time.
Click to expand...

What is odd to me is that I'm not seeing the same price pressure on C150s or C172s...

I'd sure rather have a PA28 than a C150, and they seem at parity these days for similar examples.
 
That's what I was thinking Mike. the 140 prices have slid, but the C172 and C152 are staying moderately static and it doesn't make sense.

I recall the last ride I had in one. It was all tricked out with 160HP, that fancy extractor exhaust, some kind of Q tip prop, gap seals, droop tips and other stuff. We had two adults and two kids in there on a 75F day, and when he grabbed 10deg of flaps that thing hopped in the air and up we went. Not what I recall from a 140 but this one did have a bunch of goodies on it.

Makes me want to go get one of these $16k beasts that needs love and start a refurb project on it. I'm sure by the time I got all the go fast, ans power goodies it would up around $30k total but the performance would be there and I would know everything about it for a long time.
 
docmirror said:
Makes me want to go get one of these $16k beasts that needs love and start a refurb project on it. I'm sure by the time I got all the go fast, ans power goodies it would up around $30k total but the performance would be there and I would know everything about it for a long time.
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If you want to go a bit faster, buy a cherokee 180. The return on performance mods is poor, once it comes to selling, you will be trying to sell a 35k cherokee 140 in a 19k market.
 
bbchien said:
What's happening is, for aircraft with hull vales in the 20s, the 2020 WAAS /Quitter upgrades must dont make financial sense. We will see a lot of these hulls allowed to go to total runout and then boneyard in the coming years.
Click to expand...

Until the older airframes start getting a bit scarce. With new airframes requiring stratospheric capital input, older airframes become more attractive. That's assuming there will be pilots to fly them, not a safe assumption at all.
 
docmirror said:
Man, just blasting through BS and TAP and there's a pile of mid 60s 140s priced around $20k or less. Sure they aren't cream puffs but that's a lot of plane for not much money. If a guy can find one without corrosion issues and ~200 hours left on the engine, it'd make a great plane to get the cert in.

It's kind of depressing really. Wish prices on what I already own were going up. Looks like I'll have my old bird a long, long time.
Click to expand...

I've looked at several $20k planes for people over the last year and a half, none of them passed a preflight much less a real annual. The reason they were selling at scrap price is that is exactly what they were good for. A $20k plane that needs $30k in work isn't a good deal when you can buy a decent one for $35k.
Caveat Emptor..... The Cherokee 140 has always been cheap though.
 
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docmirror said:
That's what I was thinking Mike. the 140 prices have slid, but the C172 and C152 are staying moderately static and it doesn't make sense.

I recall the last ride I had in one. It was all tricked out with 160HP, that fancy extractor exhaust, some kind of Q tip prop, gap seals, droop tips and other stuff. We had two adults and two kids in there on a 75F day, and when he grabbed 10deg of flaps that thing hopped in the air and up we went. Not what I recall from a 140 but this one did have a bunch of goodies on it.

Makes me want to go get one of these $16k beasts that needs love and start a refurb project on it. I'm sure by the time I got all the go fast, ans power goodies it would up around $30k total but the performance would be there and I would know everything about it for a long time.
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It probably won't pencil out, like everything else in aviation. Like it has been said, you can get the plane cheap, but it still costs about the same to work on them. The 160 HP STC is going to run around $10K and the Powerflow Exhaust is about $5K installed. They are great planes for the money though.
 
Don't buy a 140 if you want to get anywhere in a hurry. There are better planes for the job.

Looking at captial outlay, ongoing maintenance, DOC, a 140 with the low-compression engine and mogas STC is probably the cheapest certified 2+2 seat vehicle that can get you in the air. Yes, you can find a shortwing for less, but then you have to worry about corrosion and fabric. With the exception of the SB1006 issue, the PA28s are not known for corrosion and will do just fine with outdoors storage.
 
Wow, I din't know those STCs were that high. It is the age old question though, once you start improving, there's no payback on invested money for most items. I guess I should have bought that one that was already tricked out. Kids wanted more rear seat room, can't blame them for that.
 
steingar said:
Not for the price that you can acquire and fly a Cherokee.
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Not a 19k Cherokee 140. But once you are done with the 160hp STC, all the speed-mods wheel pants, fairings etc. you are looking at a 35k plane.

For that kind of money, you can find a decent M20C that will do 20kts more on the same fuel. Maintaining 3 oleo struts and wheelpants vs. the johnson-bar gear with the rubber donuts on the C is probably a wash. Leaves you the CS prop with the AD, probably a $4/hr expense.

If going long distances is the objective, the small engine cherokees kind of suck. I ferried my '78 Warrior from MD to ND in november against a 30kt headwind. Lots of fuel stops, lots of fuel while the trucks were passing me on I90 :rofl: . I had 3 days for the trip and had to be at work at 3pm on monday. Made it through the door in flying clothes at 2:55pm. A 140 is 10kts less than a 160hp Warrior, I probably wouldn't have made it in that day.

They are great trainers and great to get across the bay for a $200 fish sandwich. Long distance travel, not so much.
 
John221us said:
It probably won't pencil out, like everything else in aviation. Like it has been said, you can get the plane cheap, but it still costs about the same to work on them. The 160 HP STC is going to run around $10K and the Powerflow Exhaust is about $5K installed. They are great planes for the money though.
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The $10K engine STC includes an overhaul.

Art Mattson sells an STC for $200 that requires only new pistons and pins (and a Top OH)
 
Steve Foley said:
The $10K engine STC includes an overhaul.
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I dont believe you can get an O320 overhaul for 10k (unless you are the diy type who can do this under A&P supervision and you only need to pay for the send-out work).
 
Steve Foley said:
The $10K engine STC includes an overhaul.

Art Mattson sells an STC for $200 that requires only new pistons and pins (and a Top OH)
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Penn Yan overhaul to new limits, new lycoming cylinders option, 160hp STCs (one for the engine and one for the airframe), was $14,400 in 2002.

iirc, the 160hp STC option was $1000.
 
Yeah, but that exhaust and prop are still gonna take a chunk of change. Then all the gewgaws for speed is prolly +$6k installed so we are still in the $30k range even if the 160HP turns out to be moderately less.
 
I bought a $20k Cherokee when vref was about $26k. It was 7700 ttaf, 2000 smoh. But it had a six pack panel, nice paint, ok interior, single nav/com ils and mogas stc.

It was an honest 110 knots, 933 useful load, 8 gph.

I did later want a 180hp but that stc was $18k. So it never made sense for me to change it. Better to sell the plane for about what I had in it, add the $18k and then go find a $36k Cherokee 180 or even a Comanche 180 with 430G.

I just do not see any sense in adding powerflow exhaust unless the one you got is unrepairable; upgrading to 160hp as there is not enough performance difference.

I do see the value of $200 for VG's which makes the plane land like a Warrior but better stall speeds and low speed performance.

I do think its nice to have shoes on a fixed gear plane.

Other than that buy the plane you want as you will not get any money back on upgrades and improvements.

Even buying upgraded 180hp Cherokees sell for less than a real 180hp Cherokee although they are the same engine.

The guys who get hurt worst in this industry are the guys who buy and trick out a plane then loose the medical or after all the mods still not happy with performance and sell to buy a RG model or 6 seat.
 
I'm seeing lots of Cessnas and pipers go pretty cheap that are near TBO.. Overhaul prices are scaring the poop out of buyers and sellers. With that said they, low time aircraft are still holding their prices.. maybe a little bit below what they were 10 years ago but man, if you were an owner enjoying fuel prices from 10 years ago, you're ahead of the game of a buyer jumping in today.

Amazes me that people are darn near giving away low TTAF 310s with near TBO engines.. sad that those engines are making the entire plane useless.
 
weilke said:
I dont believe you can get an O320 overhaul for 10k (unless you are the diy type who can do this under A&P supervision and you only need to pay for the send-out work).
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Even the local "MOH to sell it" shop is running about 12,500 on O-320s.

A MOH to keep is in the 16k range :) "and up"
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
The guys who get hurt worst in this industry are the guys who buy and trick out a plane then loose the medical or after all the mods still not happy with performance and sell to buy a RG model or 6 seat.
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And the luckiest guys are the ones who manage to buy one of those planes out of the estate or after the owner overextended himself by buying that faster plane he needed in the first place :D .

But then there are the folks who just like to upgrade planes as a hobby. Once they have reached that perfect state they were looking for (the 110kt Cherokee 140....), they decide that now they need a 235. Once they have speed-modded the 235 has a new paint-job , he suddenly needs a Cessna 175 on floats, or a Baron.....
 
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