What's a career look like?

[AA5Bman]

So, I've always been curious about flying as a career.

Imagine you finally give up on whatever it is that you're doing and decide to plunk down your money and go to one of the ATP-style schools and get all your ratings and try to get hired by an airline. What comes next?

I'm guessing you probably have $50-100k in debt, and your first stop is a what - first officer - at a regional? I'm not sure I know what a regional is - is that Comair or Horizon or something? What's the starting salary? I've always been under the impression it ain't much. How long would that last?

What comes next, captain at the regional, I imagine? Salary a little better?

Eventually hope to get picked up by one of the Uniteds/Americans, right, and start from the right seat again and work your way to Captain?

What's the highest pay still available in the field today - Captain of a big jet at a international carrier, I'm guessing? I was always under the impression that those guys used to make great money - two or even three hundred thousand - but I could be way off. What's it like today?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

So, I've always been curious about flying as a career.

That is an admirable goal as long as you go into it knowing the cons as well as the pros.

I'm guessing you probably have $50-100k in debt

Unfortunately that is about right for a lot of people. It is best if one can avoid that and "pay as you go".

and your first stop is a what - first officer - at a regional?

Oh my. Not even close. The new rule that was recently put in place requires that one have an ATP before they can be hired by a regional.

The typical career progression would be to get your Commercial and Instrument rating, then CFI CFII and spend time as an instructor. Some people have figured out how to make a good living as a CFI, but for a lot of instructors, maybe even most, it isn't much more than a minimium wage job.

From there you would go to some sort of charter job, then maybe up to regional. Actually there may be several more steps in the ladder, just depends on the economic conditions at the time.

I'm not sure I know what a regional is - is that Comair or Horizon or something?

Well, that line has become rather blurry. Some regionals are more like Nationals. But yeah, that is the idea. Colgan, Go Jet, Great Lakes, Compass, places like that are considered regionals.

What's the starting salary? I've always been under the impression it ain't much. How long would that last?

Depends on the carrier. Might be around $18,000, could be as much as $24,000. Maybe more but not usually.

What comes next, captain at the regional, I imagine? Salary a little better?

Yes and yes.

Eventually hope to get picked up by one of the Uniteds/Americans, right, and start from the right seat again and work your way to Captain?

Well, yes, but there hasn't been much movement in the last several years. It is conceivable that you could get stuck as a regional First Officer for several years before being able to work your way up the ladder. A lot of people have ended up making the regionals a career. And honestly, the top pay scales for them are livable, but sometimes the work rules aren't.

What's the highest pay still available in the field today - Captain of a big jet at a international carrier, I'm guessing?

Yes

I was always under the impression that those guys used to make great money - two or even three hundred thousand - but I could be way off.

Well, I think Southwest Captains make north of 200 but not by much. As of right now, I think senior Captains don't make much more than 180,000 these days. Hopefully that changes.

What's it like today?

Take a look here.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/

There is a link on the left side called "Airlines" that will give you a lot of information on salaries and such that would be very informative for you.

An airline career is an admirable goal but you have to know that it is a tough career, and tough to get in to.

Good luck.

 

[taters]

You can also make much better money crop dusting, flying charter or in a corporate environment if things work out really well, much better way to live/build time than at a regional where you will likely get furloughed at some point. Many people think you have to work at a regional to then work for a Major and that is 100% false.

-Bottom line you need to get an ATP/1000 hours left seat turbine time to be competitive for the right seat at most major 121 operations, it can be like making a Jeanie come out of a jar but the faster you can make this feat happen the better, there are tons of right seaters in the regionals that cant even upgrade to captain because they dont even have enough PIC time to hold an ATP. This is because they sold themselves to the devil with 300 hours total time and they now are "stuck". So try and skip over that whole mess if you can, my advise.

 

[AA5Bman]

Wow, it's worse than I thought.

Fortunately I'm not really considering pursuing this myself, but it's always something I've thought about. Kind of like I really should have gone into the Air Force, too. Too bad you generally don't realize those kinds of things when the time is right, you know?

 

[Everskyward]

Eventually hope to get picked up by one of the Uniteds/Americans, right, and start from the right seat again and work your way to Captain?

Unfortunately United and American still have many furloughed pilots according to Airline Pilot Central.

United: Not hiring. 1,437 pilots on furlough.
American: Not hiring. Total pilots still on furlough 1,890.

From my observation it's all about timing. Aviation is an incredibly cyclical industry. Unfortunately it seems that I know more people who have had bad timing than good, particularly as it relates to airlines.

 

[taters]

Wow, it's worse than I thought.

Fortunately I'm not really considering pursuing this myself, but it's always something I've thought about. Kind of like I really should have gone into the Air Force, too. Too bad you generally don't realize those kinds of things when the time is right, you know?

If you want to do it, dont listen to those who say it cant be done, but do understand the industry has suffered a fundamental and dramatic change. That doesn't mean that it cant change for the good, many of these regional jets are about to go in the trash can, thats a step in the right direction, I know it doesnt seem like it but it is.

 

[Jack Allison]

Taking the question in a slightly different direction, one that I'm considering. What about a semi-retirement aviation career doing contract flying in turbine singles such as a PC12, TBM, etc?

Typical requirements in terms of hours?

How do folks tend to get the requisite turbine time?

I'm also contemplating getting a CFI. Already have instrument rating and commercial certificate and just North of 700 hours total time.

Sometime 7-10 years down the road, I'd like to retire from my current career into a part time flying career. Not one where I have to make a ton of money (good thing, have heard all about "make a small fortune in aviation by starting out with a large one" ).

 

[tonycondon]

If you want to do it, dont listen to those who say it cant be done, but do understand the industry has suffered a fundamental and dramatic change. That doesn't mean that it cant change for the good, many of these regional jets are about to go in the trash can, thats a step in the right direction, I know it doesnt seem like it but it is.

don't worry we're working on replacements.

 

[taters]

Taking the question in a slightly different direction, one that I'm considering. What about a semi-retirement aviation career doing contract flying in turbine singles such as a PC12, TBM, etc?

Typical requirements in terms of hours?

How do folks tend to get the requisite turbine time?

I'm also contemplating getting a CFI. Already have instrument rating and commercial certificate and just North of 700 hours total time.

Sometime 7-10 years down the road, I'd like to retire from my current career into a part time flying career. Not one where I have to make a ton of money (good thing, have heard all about "make a small fortune in aviation by starting out with a large one" ).

Make a name for yourself as a CFI and good things will happen, lots of companies own piston and turbine singles/small twins, all about who you know and being in the right place at the right time, about 75% of these kind of jobs are never "posted".

 

[Greg Bockelman]

That doesn't mean that it cant change for the good, many of these regional jets are about to go in the trash can, thats a step in the right direction, I know it doesnt seem like it but it is.

Out of curiosity, where did you get that information? I have heard much the same thing but haven't SEEN it yet.

 

[taters]

http://www.planeconversations.com/2010/09/08/what-do-you-do-with-a-few-hundred-parked-regional-jets/


http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0115424920100901

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Amer...41468/L/&sid=87b883509f78fbd0af6b2535f0abebf4


Comair does have the old CRJ-100's but several other regionals have already begun shedding or avoiding the 50 seat jets as they are not profitable, 70-100 seats is much more desirable... When I worked at Eagle, the EMB-140/45 had to be 80% full to break even. Either Tprops will make a comeback, or majors will start scoping back in the 70 seat + flying.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Comair does have the old CRJ-100's but several other regionals have already begun shedding or avoiding the 50 seat jets as they are not profitable, 70-100 seats is much more desirable... When I worked at Eagle, the EMB-140/45 had to be 80% full to break even. Either Tprops will make a comeback, or majors will start scoping back in the 70 seat + flying.

Yeah, I guess I knew that.

As far as the scope thing goes, IMO, the 100 seat planes should have never been out of the control of the majors and the jury is still out on the 70 seaters. But I know that view is not universal.

 

[taters]

As far as the scope thing goes, IMO, the 100 seat planes should have never

For sure

 

[Jack Allison]

Thanks Clay. Agreed that a lot of what I'd be interested in doing would be based on who you know/where you are at a given time. Yep, being a CFI could open up many more doors, not to mention providing an additional (small! ) amount of revenue.

 

[weilke]

That doesn't mean that it cant change for the good, many of these regional jets are about to go in the trash can, thats a step in the right direction, I know it doesnt seem like it but it is.

In what sense are they 'going into the trash can' ? By getting old and starting to cost more money to operate or by being superceded by other types ?

I fly a lot commercial, all I can see is that DC9s get replaced with Embraer 175, CRJ200 with CRJ900. I dont expect any cataclysmic shift away from the RJ concept.

 

[AA5Bman]

Just to fuel the conversation, I read an article in this month's Plane and Pilot that was all about the coming need for pilots. It makes sense - this recession won't last forever, and there will be a huge demand for pilots. Baby boomers will be retiring, the military isn't producing as many pilots as in the past, maybe there will be a good opportunity in the next 5 years?

I should mention that I feel like I've seen that same article about once a year in that rag...

By the way, has anyone noticed that you can't find FLYING mag and P&P anymore at airport newstands? What happened?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

By the way, has anyone noticed that you can't find FLYING mag and P&P anymore at airport newstands? What happened?

TSA happened. Those magazines print "how to fly" articles that could be used by terrorists.

(just kidding)


(I think...)

 

[jesse]

There is a lot of luck involved with a good aviation career. So many things are out of your control and completely reset you. If your airline goes under and suddenly you're out of a job then you're looking at a reset seniority with much reduced pay and schedule.

If I lose an IT job I can just go find another one with equal or greater salary.

 

[wabower]

At least for now.

There is a lot of luck involved with a good aviation career. So many things are out of your control and completely reset you. If your airline goes under and suddenly you're out of a job then you're looking at a reset seniority with much reduced pay and schedule.

If I lose an IT job I can just go find another one with equal or greater salary.

 

[Everskyward]

There is a lot of luck involved with a good aviation career.

That's my observation too. Quite a bit depends on right time, right place and knowing people. You also need to be prepared for opportunities if they come along by having the relevant qualifications.

 

[wabower]

That's my observation too. Quite a bit depends on right time, right place and knowing people. You also need to be prepared for opportunities if they come along by having the relevant qualifications.

And have realistic expectations regarding the payback of expense incurred to obtain them. The standard advice regarding most things in life is that when you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging. I'm not sure this advice can be applied to an aviation career.

Aviation careers seem to be more similar to the rancher's answer regarding what he would do if he won the lottery "guess I'd just keep on ranching 'til it was gone."

 

[weilke]

Just to fuel the conversation, I read an article in this month's Plane and Pilot that was all about the coming need for pilots. It makes sense - this recession won't last forever, and there will be a huge demand for pilots. Baby boomers will be retiring, the military isn't producing as many pilots as in the past, maybe there will be a good opportunity in the next 5 years?

I should mention that I feel like I've seen that same article about once a year in that rag...

Just count the number of ads from 'aviation colleges' and outfits like All-ATPs and the motivation to put that piece in about once a year becomes quite clear. The big pilot-hiring binge is allways just around the corner.

By the way, has anyone noticed that you can't find FLYING mag and P&P anymore at airport newstands? What happened?

They didnt sell enough copies to justify taking up rack space.

 

[theaviatorsden]

Here is a good article describing the challenges of making a career in the airline industry: http://thetruthabouttheprofession.weebly.com/

The Aviator's Den.

 

[Everskyward]

And have realistic expectations regarding the payback of expense incurred to obtain them.

What do you think people's expectations are? I never thought I would become rich being a pilot but that didn't matter much to me as I was a child of the anti-materialistic 60s.

Seriously though, I've always thought doing something that was interesting to me was more important than making a lot of money. That is, to a certain point. I didn't pursue many opportunities flying bigger equipment when I was younger because I had a full time, decent paying job (for flying a single, anyway) and was not about to give it up just for "building time" in a twin or a turbine for pennies. This attitude put me behind on the career ladder but also helped me become financially secure. I think everything is a tradeoff and I am more or less satisfied with how it worked out for me. In fact when I think about it I have done better than I ever would have imagined when I was starting out.

As far as the pilot shortage goes, they have been talking about that ever since I started flying which was a long time ago. I haven't seen a sign of it yet. Besides, if truly materializes, the airlines will start making their own pilots like they do overseas.

 

[taters]

In what sense are they 'going into the trash can' ? By getting old and starting to cost more money to operate or by being superceded by other types ?

I fly a lot commercial, all I can see is that DC9s get replaced with Embraer 175, CRJ200 with CRJ900. I dont expect any cataclysmic shift away from the RJ concept.

Its the 50 seat jet that is in trouble because the profit margin on them has whittled away to nothing. Believe it or not, the earlier batches of CRJ/ERJ are close to being cycled out, some will go to storage, and most are leased. The 70-100 seat market has taken off but many of these planes really aren't "regional" as they are capable of semi trans-cont. flight and undertake them quite often. You may/may not see the shift with your own eyes but some major carriers may begin to buy back or scope in the right to the 70 seat + market.

The CRJ is simply a Challenger stretched out, it was really never designed to take the abuse that it has had to deal with, the 7-900 series was the first dedicated regional jet along with the Embraer. The differences in construction are night and day. Thats why so many 100/200 series airframes are pretty much worthless.

 

[weilke]

Its the 50 seat jet that is in trouble because the profit margin on them has whittled away to nothing. Believe it or not, the earlier batches of CRJ/ERJ are close to being cycled out, some will go to storage, and most are leased. The 70-100 seat market has taken off but many of these planes really aren't "regional" as they are capable of semi trans-cont. flight and undertake them quite often. You may/may not see the shift with your own eyes but some major carriers may begin to buy back or scope in the right to the 70 seat + market.

The CRJ is simply a Challenger stretched out, it was really never designed to take the abuse that it has had to deal with, the 7-900 series was the first dedicated regional jet along with the Embraer. The differences in construction are night and day. Thats why so many 100/200 series airframes are pretty much worthless.

Ah, so its the 50 seaters you are talking about when I consider a 175 or a CRJ900 to be a 'regional jet'.
The potential shift away from the 50 seaters will not change the need for pilots in any meaningful way. The airlines will still need crews for the slightly larger aircraft and the 100 and 200 series CRJs (and EMB145s) will eventually fly packages here or oil-workers in Saudi Arabia.

 

[taters]

Ah, so its the 50 seaters you are talking about when I consider a 175 or a CRJ900 to be a 'regional jet'.
The potential shift away from the 50 seaters will not change the need for pilots in any meaningful way. The airlines will still need crews for the slightly larger aircraft and the 100 and 200 series CRJs (and EMB145s) will eventually fly packages here or oil-workers in Saudi Arabia.

Oh yes, they already have a freighter version of the CRJ, they will be flown to pieces in 3rd world countries. Yes there will still be lots of pilot jobs, you just want the major airlines to control more of them than the regional airlines in the future. The regionals are out of control when MSP-DFW or MCI-LAX is a "regional" flight.

 

[weilke]

Yes there will still be lots of pilot jobs, you just want the major airlines to control more of them than the regional airlines in the future.

Who wants that ? Except for the airline pilots and their unions I dont see anyone pushing for this.

The regionals are out of control when MSP-DFW or MCI-LAX is a "regional" flight.

Pure semantics. If the name was 'supplemental carriers', the argument would go away.

 

[wabower]

Unfortunately, I don't think expectations are quantified due to the subjectivity of the career choice and because most kids are never required to think through the equation and "prove up" the +/- list.

There's a big difference between being rich and being financially secure, and the need to be one or the other becomes more apparent when age and reality enter the picture. Pilot jobs are a long-shot at becoming either one, which is why I recommend against them as a primary career plan.

Doing something interesting is always a good thing, but I maintain that people should develop interests in things that are likely to support them, as well as the things they just like to do. YMMV

What do you think people's expectations are? I never thought I would become rich being a pilot but that didn't matter much to me as I was a child of the anti-materialistic 60s.

Seriously though, I've always thought doing something that was interesting to me was more important than making a lot of money. That is, to a certain point. I didn't pursue many opportunities flying bigger equipment when I was younger because I had a full time, decent paying job (for flying a single, anyway) and was not about to give it up just for "building time" in a twin or a turbine for pennies. This attitude put me behind on the career ladder but also helped me become financially secure. I think everything is a tradeoff and I am more or less satisfied with how it worked out for me. In fact when I think about it I have done better than I ever would have imagined when I was starting out.

As far as the pilot shortage goes, they have been talking about that ever since I started flying which was a long time ago. I haven't seen a sign of it yet. Besides, if truly materializes, the airlines will start making their own pilots like they do overseas.

 

[Everskyward]

Unfortunately, I don't think expectations are quantified due to the subjectivity of the career choice and because most kids are never required to think through the equation and "prove up" the +/- list.

+/- lists are fine but it's very difficult to predict what is going to happen to an industry in the course of a, say, 40 year career. That's what people are looking at when they are 20. I say do what you want to do but prepare to be flexible.

There's a big difference between being rich and being financially secure, and the need to be one or the other becomes more apparent when age and reality enter the picture.

I'm flattered that you think I'm young enough not to know anything about reality.

 

[wabower]

Did you forget that you posted pics of your ride at Gastons?

Cirrusly, you have obviously made it work and I'm happy that you've been able to stay employed and have worked your way into a nice gig flying a good airplane. That's a chapter I'd like to see in every pilots' career book. Based on my experience, however, your career results are like the weight loss commercial disclaimer that says they are atypical of most dieters. I don't think most GA pilots have done nearly as well as you have, nor do I think the future holds much promise for those now considering it.

As long as the number of people wanting to fly airplanes is disproportionately greater than the number of airplanes needing to be flown, the pay, working conditons, job security and opportunities are going to suffer.

+/- lists are fine but it's very difficult to predict what is going to happen to an industry in the course of a, say, 40 year career. That's what people are looking at when they are 20. I say do what you want to do but prepare to be flexible.

I'm flattered that you think I'm young enough not to know anything about reality.

 

[Everskyward]

Did you forget that you posted pics of your ride at Gastons?

I don't think most GA pilots have done nearly as well as you have,

That's funny because I sometimes look at other pilots and think that they have done a lot better than me, and at a younger age too. However, when step back and consider things objectively I can say that I've been very lucky.

As long as the number of people wanting to fly airplanes is disproportionately greater than the number of airplanes needing to be flown, the pay, working conditons, job security and opportunities are going to suffer.

That is definitely true and I agree with you that it's important for people going into aviation to look at it with open eyes. They also need to consider that it's a job which comes with all the baggage of other jobs and maybe more. I think I was fortunate in that I didn't have any romantic illusions about being a pilot because I started out in the back seat of a mapping airplane and I knew right away from observation that being the pilot was work.

 

[wabower]

That is definitely true and I agree with you that it's important for people going into aviation to look at it with open eyes. They also need to consider that it's a job which comes with all the baggage of other jobs and maybe more. I think I was fortunate in that I didn't have any romantic illusions about being a pilot because I started out in the back seat of a mapping airplane and I knew right away from observation that being the pilot was work.

An expanded version of this advice should be required reading for those considering the career.

 

[weilke]

An expanded version of this advice should be required reading for those considering the career.

Florida should pass a state law that makes this required reading before any student loans can be taken out for flight training.

 

[jasc15]

The pragmatism of this discussion reminds me of an article that discouraged me from going for a graduate physics degree. You sometimes have to put your starry-eyed images aside to consider the reality and consequences of the so-called 'noble pursuits'.

 

[hindsight2020]

Work for money, fly for fun. That's what I'm gonna do with my life. If military aviation hadn't been available to me I would have gone head first into dental school and afforded all the flying toys I could have. No way I'm touching part 121 aviation in my lifetime, I don't care how much heavy-multi TPIC the Air Force grants me access to...I guess some starry eyed kid at all-ATP doesn't have to worry about me bumping him off the race...he only has to worry about the other 10,000 optimism-biased polyannas clicking their heels for the next "hiring wave". To each their own.