What would you do?

[SkyHog]

Ok - so I have heard this before, but its never been an issue because I usually am given directions later, but here's the scenario (with diagram to illustrate).

Someone is at Cutter at KABQ (marked with the blue x on the diagram). ATIS says "Simultaneous approaches in use, Runway 8 and Runway 12." When calling up ground, the pilot is told to "Taxi to runway 8, via G-1, E-3."

That would require crossing runway 12. The clearance did not say that the pilot had to hold short of rw 12. Since RW12 is active, is the pilot required to hold short of 12, or is the pilot expected to look and then cross?

 

[Michael]

he is to cross. taxi instructions include crossing all runways unless told to hold short.

 

[Bill]

he is to cross. taxi instructions include crossing all runways unless told to hold short.

To be exact, to cross all runways except the departure runway.

 

[Henning]

Ok - so I have heard this before, but its never been an issue because I usually am given directions later, but here's the scenario (with diagram to illustrate).

Someone is at Cutter at KABQ (marked with the blue x on the diagram). ATIS says "Simultaneous approaches in use, Runway 8 and Runway 12." When calling up ground, the pilot is told to "Taxi to runway 8, via G-1, E-3."

That would require crossing runway 12. The clearance did not say that the pilot had to hold short of rw 12. Since RW12 is active, is the pilot required to hold short of 12, or is the pilot expected to look and then cross?

Unless they issue a hold short, from a clearance standpoint, you are good to cross. Typically I'll check in on the radio if it appears conditions may warrant, "ground, 04Y confirming clear to cross 12", I've never had a controller berate me for it.

 

[mike21951]

Technically you are cleared to cross 12 however either the ATIS is out of date or the controller made a mistake. Personally, I would confirm permission to cross 12 before I did so.

 

[The rogue]

I have to agree with Mike on this one. While you can, technically, cross the runway without breaking regs, I would confirm anyhow.....

 

[fgcason]

You're cleared to taxi without further contact and without stopping to the hold line at E-3 on the south side of Rwy 8.

BUT legal isn't necessarily safe.

Me personally crossing a runway, active or not? I don't blindly wander out through intersections even when I have right of way. When I get there, I'll stop short of 12, look both ways and confirm with ground that I'm safe to cross. Then I'll cross. When it comes to it, the controller can't do more than yell at me and put me in the penalty box. The surprise plane landing on 12 can smoosh me.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Ok - so I have heard this before, but its never been an issue because I usually am given directions later, but here's the scenario (with diagram to illustrate).

Someone is at Cutter at KABQ (marked with the blue x on the diagram). ATIS says "Simultaneous approaches in use, Runway 8 and Runway 12." When calling up ground, the pilot is told to "Taxi to runway 8, via G-1, E-3."

That would require crossing runway 12. The clearance did not say that the pilot had to hold short of rw 12. Since RW12 is active, is the pilot required to hold short of 12, or is the pilot expected to look and then cross?

When taxiing to cross RWY or takeoff I make sure to angle my windshield so I can visually confirm it's safe to cross, remembering that on two different occasions, we've had to dive under a 747 and also again under a Baron on short final, after being formally cleared to land just prior onto the "towered" field.

The first time I just radioed, "Cessna XYZ going under for incoming !"

The second time recalling the occasional put-out voices of controllers when confirmations were asked for, I radioed the same, adding "you guys owe us one !"

 

[grattonja]

Two actives, I ask permission before crossing the second one. I believe the clearance properly clears me across it, but it only takes a minute to request confirmation and get it. If it ticks them off, sorry, but for you, controller, its just a blot in your file if I get in someone's way. I, OTOH, become a blot on the runway, and I'm not willing to risk that.

Jim G

 

[jesse]

Every runway I cross, active or not. I angle the plane both ways and make sure that there is no traffic. If I have even the slightest feeling that something isn't right I always confirm it with ATC.

Here is my thought. You get a guy taking off from a runway and starts his turn on course. Engine fails. He turns for a spot to land there is a nice runway. It all happens so fast the controller doesn't even know it. The plane then lands and you then taxi across it as you were cleared.

I don't trust anyone. If it's a runway I always look all over before I cross it. You don't have to stop to do this, Just turn back and forth check base downwind final and crosswind.


Just one of those things I always make sure I do.

 

[igottafly]

Aim 4-3-18 says:

4-3-18. Taxiing​

a. General. Approval must be obtained prior to moving an aircraft or vehicle onto the movement area during the hours an Airport Traffic Control Tower is in operation.​

1. Always state your position on the airport when calling the tower for taxi instructions.​

2. The movement area is normally described in local bulletins issued by the airport manager or control tower. These bulletins may be found in FSSs, fixed base operators offices, air carrier offices, and operations offices.​

3. The control tower also issues bulletins describing areas where they cannot provide ATC service due to nonvisibility or other reasons.​

4. A clearance must be obtained prior to taxiing on a runway, taking off, or landing during the hours an Airport Traffic Control Tower is in operation.​

5. When ATC clears an aircraft to "taxi to" an assigned takeoff runway, the absence of holding instructions authorizes the aircraft to "cross" all runways which the taxi route intersects except the assigned takeoff runway. It does not include authorization to "taxi onto" or "cross" the assigned takeoff runway at any point. In order to preclude misunderstandings in radio communications, ATC will not use the word "cleared" in conjunction with authorization for aircraft to taxi.​

6. In the absence of holding instructions, a clearance to "taxi to" any point other than an assigned takeoff runway is a clearance to cross all runways that intersect the taxi route to that point.​

7. Air traffic control will first specify the runway, issue taxi instructions, and then state any required hold short instructions, when authorizing an aircraft to taxi for departure. This does not authorize the aircraft to "enter" or "cross" the assigned departure runway at any point.​

NOTE-
Air traffic controllers are required to obtain from the pilot a readback of all runway hold short instructions.​

8. If a pilot is expected to hold short of a runway approach ("APPCH") area or ILS holding position (see FIG 2-3-15, Taxiways Located in Runway Approach Area), ATC will issue instructions.

9. When taxi instructions are received from the controller, pilots should always read back:​

(a) The runway assignment.​

(b) Any clearance to enter a specific runway.​

(c) Any instruction to hold short of a specific runway, or taxi into position and hold.​

Controllers are required to request a readback of runway hold short assignment when it is not received from the pilot/vehicle.​

b. ATC clearances or instructions pertaining to taxiing are predicated on known traffic and known physical airport conditions. Therefore, it is important that pilots clearly understand the clearance or instruction. Although an ATC clearance is issued for taxiing purposes, when operating in accordance with the CFRs, it is the responsibility of the pilot to avoid collision with other aircraft. Since "the pilot-in-command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft" the pilot should obtain clarification of any clearance or instruction which is not understood.​

[SIZE=-2]REFERENCE-
AIM, General, Paragraph 7-3-1.[/SIZE]​

1. Good operating practice dictates that pilots acknowledge all runway crossing, hold short, or takeoff clearances unless there is some misunderstanding, at which time the pilot should query the controller until the clearance is understood.​

NOTE-
Air traffic controllers are required to obtain from the pilot a readback of all runway hold short instructions.​

 

[SkyHog]

cool. That's what I thought the answer was, but I always feel a little eerie crossing a runway without specifically hearing "Cross RW12" at a towered airport.

 

[gismo]

cool. That's what I thought the answer was, but I always feel a little eerie crossing a runway without specifically hearing "Cross RW12" at a towered airport.

While I agree with the concept of asking for confirmation before crossing a runway you believe to be active, if I'm paying attention to my location and taxi clearance I do try to avoid cluttering the frequency unnecessarily. I feel it's more important to visually clear any runway you are about to cross whether or not it's "active". Aircraft can be cleared to land on any runway regardless of what the ATIS says (with the possible exception of an ATIS that mentions missing pavement etc) and pilots have been known to land on the wrong runway now and then.

 

[poadeleted20]

I always feel a little eerie crossing a runway without specifically hearing "Cross RW12" at a towered airport.

So do I, which is why I "look both ways before crossing the street." But I don't bug the tower if I don't see anyone.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

So do I, which is why I "look both ways before crossing the street." But I don't bug the tower if I don't see anyone.

I'm the same as Lance and Ron; however, seldom operate out of a highly complex airport. Problem is there can be more than one active. If you're highly familiar with the airport--great. If not, that's when I get kind of anal about asking for permission.

In Yuma recently, I pulled up short for gas and didn't have taxi charts. Going to the FBO wasn't an issue, but taxiing back out was. I got a taxi chart in the FBO, but they had me back taxi on a runway to depart from another. I just asked for progressive instructions and said I was unfamiliar with the airport. This wasn't ORD, so, the frequency wasn't busy.

At Hobby two nights ago, it wasn't busy, but had it been, I can sure see how one could get confused. ATIS had two arrival runways named and said tower would assign departure runways. I wouldn't cross anything under those circumstances without someone telling me it was O.K. Wind was calm and they were coming and going on multiple runways.



Dave