What would you do...

AuntPeggy

Final Approach
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when you see an ultra-light landing on the runway you are back-taxiing on?

We were returning from our long-delayed Christmas flight to Oklahoma on December 31. Our second leg of the day terminated a little before noon at a small airport with cheap self-serve gasoline, Harrison County, KY (0I8).

I was flying and Don was making the radio calls. He announced our approach and a few minutes later, he announced left downwind for runway 29. There was surprisingly little radio traffic that day, and none at Harrison County. “Traffic,” Don said, pointing into the distance toward the right rear. “Looks like an ultra-light.” We kept an eye out for the little bird and landed long without incident. On the way in we had discussed the 1000’ displaced threshold and my decision to decrease taxi time on the runway by touching down further along the 3800’ ft runway than usual. We had been watching for the ultra-light and saw him cross from the left to the right about 500 feet directly over the threshold of 29 as I turned off the runway toward the pumps.

I was thinking it was a good thing he didn’t do that while I was landing. But of course, he wouldn’t. After a quick refueling, bathroom break, briefing, and pretzel we were back into the plane and heading for the taxiway that leads to the runway. “Where’s that ultra-light?” Don asked. We both looked and didn’t see him, so Don announced we were back-taxiing on runway 29. I moved out onto the runway, and for some reason, we kept a lookout for the ultra-light when he suddenly appeared to my left, still about 500 AGL. He kept pace for a little bit, then pulled ahead. “What’s he doing?” I asked. “What’s it look like?” Don answered. “Right downwind,” I thought to myself. When he got to the threshold, he banked and turned. “Right base,” I thought, and pulled my plane, now about 1000 ft. from the threshold, all the way to the left on the runway.

When the ultra-light turned final, facing us, I pulled to a dead stop. In my mind’s eye I saw the little flyer running into my right wing extended across the centerline and getting tossed into my spinning propeller. What should I do? Go into the grass? I already had one main on the gravelly grass. That would swing the tail out onto the runway. Could I get out of the way in time? Pull the mixture and kill the propeller? Then I couldn’t even move the plane out of the way. In my mind’s eye, the pilot of this craft looked a lot like our son David when he was 17 or even when he was 10 and he would just dash off on a lark without any thought of the consequences of his actions. For a moment, I was this kid’s mother and I was about to kill him.

But before I could ponder my options any further, the little craft came to a stop on the runway. He paused for awhile, with neither plane moving, then he taxied off into the grass next to the runup area. I waited a little longer to see what he would do before continuing my taxi to the runup area. It only took a moment to check the engine and depart. As we left, the radio crackled twice, as though someone with a hand-held was trying to tell us something. “Garbled,” Don responded.
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I would have got off the runway into the grass as fast as I could. That is assuming the ultralight was actually lined up on the runway. It's not uncommon for them to land in the grass beside the runway.

Not all ultralight pilots are bad pilots. But the number of bad pilots in their ranks are much higher. A lot of them have not put a lot of training or thought towards judgment or safety. The ultralight pilot knew he could stop before you so he didn't see a problem with it.

The sad fact is that too many pilots freeze up when they see something they aren't familiar with. I took this picture in Ames, IA:
formation_landing.jpg

The glider pilot was announcing the entire time. The power pilot obviously had no idea what to do and proceeded to land on the same runway. The glider pilot obviously couldn't do anything but take the grass beside the runway.
 
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I could never figure out why god gave me the middle finger, now I know.......
 
when you see an ultra-light landing on the runway you are back-taxiing on?

“Where’s that ultra-light?” Don asked. We both looked and didn’t see him, so Don announced we were back-taxiing on runway 29. I moved out onto the runway, and for some reason, we kept a lookout for the ultra-light when he suddenly appeared to my left, still about 500 AGL. He kept pace for a little bit, then pulled ahead. “What’s he doing?” I asked. “What’s it look like?” Don answered. “Right downwind,” I thought to myself. When he got to the threshold, he banked and turned. “Right base,” I thought, and pulled my plane, now about 1000 ft. from the threshold, all the way to the left on the runway.

When the ultra-light turned final, facing us, I pulled to a dead stop. In my mind’s eye I saw the little flyer running into my right wing extended across the centerline and getting tossed into my spinning propeller. What should I do? Go into the grass? I already had one main on the gravelly grass. That would swing the tail out onto the runway. Could I get out of the way in time? Pull the mixture and kill the propeller? Then I couldn’t even move the plane out of the way. In my mind’s eye, the pilot of this craft looked a lot like our son David when he was 17 or even when he was 10 and he would just dash off on a lark without any thought of the consequences of his actions. For a moment, I was this kid’s mother and I was about to kill him.

But before I could ponder my options any further, the little craft came to a stop on the runway. He paused for awhile, with neither plane moving, then he taxied off into the grass next to the runup area. I waited a little longer to see what he would do before continuing my taxi to the runup area. It only took a moment to check the engine and depart. As we left, the radio crackled twice, as though someone with a hand-held was trying to tell us something. “Garbled,” Don responded.


Well, I would have gone into the grass then turned perpendicular to the runway. I am the burdened party to make room. Conversely, if I was the guy flying the ultralight, I'd have kept my eye on you, since you pulled aside and came to a stop, I would have assumed you saw me and were yeilding. At that point, I judge if I have the room to land or not, if yes, I land, if not, I go around and let you get out.
 
Well, I would have gone into the grass then turned perpendicular to the runway. I am the burdened party to make room. Conversely, if I was the guy flying the ultralight, I'd have kept my eye on you, since you pulled aside and came to a stop, I would have assumed you saw me and were yeilding. At that point, I judge if I have the room to land or not, if yes, I land, if not, I go around and let you get out.
But when? He had been buzzing around the airport for at least twenty minutes. By the time I realized he was really going to land, he was just seconds from the ground.
 
But when? He had been buzzing around the airport for at least twenty minutes. By the time I realized he was really going to land, he was just seconds from the ground.

From what you wrote, y'all saw him on downwind then you saw him turn base. At that time you pull off.
 
I think the real question is....

What would Brian Boitano do?
 
Maybe the pilot of the ultralight was doing business as usual, and you were just not used to the drill. At the airport where I work, there are a lot of gliders, ultralights, and planes that don't have radios, not to mention quite a few corporate aircraft coming in and out. We seem to mix well. Sometimes pilots who don't frequent our airport a lot come in and want to know what the heck is going on, and we wonder what the big deal is. "So what, there's a glider, a tow plane, and two cars sitting on the active runway, that's why we have two of them." The ultralight pilot was probably just doing exactly what you would expect, if you flew out of that airport all the time.
 
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Maybe the pilot of the ultralight was doing business as usual, and you were just not used to the drill.

We have a mix as well with the ultrlight pattern being exactly as described 500 agl, base in line with the threshold. He probaly wasn't concerned at all since he knew you saw him. He probably could have landed and taken back off and landed again past you. Not safe but I've seen those guy's look like they are on a 100 foot roller coaster going down the runway.

I was thinking of taking a ride in one until I saw that and walked up to get a close look at the thing.:hairraise:
 
The ultralight was landing. I would have taxied off and given it the right of way.
 
We have a mix as well with the ultrlight pattern being exactly as described 500 agl, base in line with the threshold. He probaly wasn't concerned at all since he knew you saw him. He probably could have landed and taken back off and landed again past you. Not safe but I've seen those guy's look like they are on a 100 foot roller coaster going down the runway.

I was thinking of taking a ride in one until I saw that and walked up to get a close look at the thing.:hairraise:
OK. My training did not include what to expect from ultra-lights. If 500 AGL is the standard, then I'll start to expect to see them there. I don't expect them to have a radio. What about right-pattern at a left-pattern runway? Is that standard, too? I guess we need another paragraph or two in the lessons.

Whether it is do-able or not, I think that landing on an occupied runway is poor etiquette at the least.
 
OK. My training did not include what to expect from ultra-lights. If 500 AGL is the standard, then I'll start to expect to see them there. I don't expect them to have a radio. What about right-pattern at a left-pattern runway? Is that standard, too? I guess we need another paragraph or two in the lessons.

Whether it is do-able or not, I think that landing on an occupied runway is poor etiquette at the least.

Yes, they will generally be (should be) opposite hand turn from airplane traffic.
 
Maybe the pilot of the ultralight was doing business as usual, and you were just not used to the drill. At the airport where I work, there are a lot of gliders, ultralights, and planes that don't have radios, not to mention quite a few corporate aircraft coming in and out. We seem to mix well. Sometimes pilots who don't frequent our airport a lot come in and want to know what the heck is going on, and we wonder what the big deal is. "So what, there's a glider, a tow plane, and two cars sitting on the active runway, that's why we have two of them." The ultralight pilot was probably just doing exactly what you would expect, if you flew out of that airport all the time.

First, not picking on YOU Max, you just happened to bring it up.

The "local customs" should STILL be in line with the FAA regs and the AIM.
If it was, then there is not an issue when a pilot that isn't "local" comes to that airport.
There is a small airport near me that has "local customs" also. Makes me crazy and I know what they are. Doesn't mean I always remember when I am coming into the pattern on the 45 downwind entry and I am cut off by somebody.
My point is, shouldn't we all strive to make these "local customs" be in accordance with what we were all taught then we won't have a problem?

Mark B
 
First, not picking on YOU Max, you just happened to bring it up.

The "local customs" should STILL be in line with the FAA regs and the AIM.
If it was, then there is not an issue when a pilot that isn't "local" comes to that airport.
There is a small airport near me that has "local customs" also. Makes me crazy and I know what they are. Doesn't mean I always remember when I am coming into the pattern on the 45 downwind entry and I am cut off by somebody.
My point is, shouldn't we all strive to make these "local customs" be in accordance with what we were all taught then we won't have a problem?

Mark B

I know that you're not trying to pick on me. I agree with you whole heartedly, everyone should strive to fly by the book. However, an uncontrolled airport is an uncontrolled airport, and there are some situations that aren't covered by the book, like what runway you are going to use. I've found that local customs are usually not contrary to the rules and regs, but sort of compliment them. They are the bridges that make the rules work. The thing is, a lot of times there isn't a clear cut procedure to cover everything all of the time. At those times, it has been my experience that not everyone does things the way I think that they should. For that reason, I have learned to go with the flow, rather than try to change everyone to do it my way. It is so much easier.
 
The only thing that I don't know here is, was he at all visible before you entered the runway to back-taxi? Unfortunately, here, you have a long distance to back-taxi when 29 is favored, so if you are on the runway and in the process of back-taxiing before you could have reasonably known he was landing, then (in the exercise of reasonable courtesy) it's your runway.


Same time, of course, if he continues inbound and lands, it is (presumably) because he needed to do so, and in such a circumstance, I'd turn off of the runway if at all possible.

Finally, of course, the guy was in an ultralight which could easily land in a de minimis length of the runway- what he did was well within his abilities and, it seems, not at all unsafe.

Bottom line: You watched, you were ready to vacate if needed, he watched, he landed well short of creating any hazard, so nobody was harmed. It would be helpful if he had been radio-equipped, but if the field has 8 based planes and 21 daily ops, who cares?
 
Is this in the FAR/AIM?

Well as it turns out there's an AC that states the pattern should be 500 feet and in the same direction and inside the traffic pattern of normal planes, unless there's a special operating area, then it is opposite. However, I know the state of Wisconsin says all UL patterns are tobe opposite of fixed wing traffic. I would check Kentucky's aviation regulations.

You did "make yourself familiar with everything" didn't you? ;)
 
Jesse could you email that picture to my Gmail account? cherokee373y@gmail.com

thanks - it will be good for training my power and glider students at Ames on what to and what not to do.
 
formation_landing.jpg

The glider pilot was announcing the entire time. The power pilot obviously had no idea what to do and proceeded to land on the same runway. The glider pilot obviously couldn't do anything but take the grass beside the runway.

Time to redesignate Alpha as 19R, I guess. That's a great shot!
 
nah Chris was wisely taking the grass infield. Taxiways have got lights that are too easy to knock over :D
 
The only thing that I don't know here is, was he at all visible before you entered the runway to back-taxi? Unfortunately, here, you have a long distance to back-taxi when 29 is favored, so if you are on the runway and in the process of back-taxiing before you could have reasonably known he was landing, then (in the exercise of reasonable courtesy) it's your runway.
He wasn't visible when I entered the runway to back-taxi. When he drew alongside me, I was already more than halfway.

Well as it turns out there's an AC that states the pattern should be 500 feet and in the same direction and inside the traffic pattern of normal planes, unless there's a special operating area, then it is opposite. However, I know the state of Wisconsin says all UL patterns are tobe opposite of fixed wing traffic. I would check Kentucky's aviation regulations.

You did "make yourself familiar with everything" didn't you? ;)

That's the basic reason for my questions. Where can I find the AC?
 
He wasn't visible when I entered the runway to back-taxi. When he drew alongside me, I was already more than halfway.

See, that makes it very tough- there are equities favoring each of you. That's where common sense and courtesy come in.

Again, it worked out OK.

There was nothing in your description that would justify any middle-finger gestures on either part.
 
Off Topic, I flew into Cynthiana Harrison on the way back from Gaston's with Dave. Nice little field. Sometimes they have frozen M&Ms.
 
Off Topic, I flew into Cynthiana Harrison on the way back from Gaston's with Dave. Nice little field. Sometimes they have frozen M&Ms.

Frozen M&Ms? That sounds like a chipped tooth waiting to happen!
 
Frozen M&Ms? That sounds like a chipped tooth waiting to happen!
Way off topic... It doesn't take frozen M&Ms to chip a tooth. My brother did it last week biting his fingernail!:hairraise: To make it aviation-related at least, I found out about it when I flew up to see him last night. :yes:
 
The only thing that I don't know here is, was he at all visible before you entered the runway to back-taxi? Unfortunately, here, you have a long distance to back-taxi when 29 is favored, so if you are on the runway and in the process of back-taxiing before you could have reasonably known he was landing, then (in the exercise of reasonable courtesy) it's your runway.

Not according to the FAR's... The guy in the air has priority.

I'd have probably taken the grass if it was grass, or just hung as far to the side as possible if there were snowbanks.
 
I don't think the FARs say that Kent. The UL was NOT an final approach, he wasn't even on base, when Peggy was on the runway.

91.113(g)
(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach...

Did Peggy already land? Yep. Doesn't say anything about leaving the runway and coming back. ;)
 
I always thought that if someone was on the "active" (let's not get into chasing that rabbit;):p), the runway was occupied, and traffic in the air had to stay in the air:dunno:. Based on my CFI long ago prompting me to slow down a lot to allow a plane to get past the hold short line on the runway we were on final for at BVO (dual X/C).

I'm probably wrong...usually am:redface:.
 
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